Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Let me start by saying I love 40k lore, so I'm encouraging critical thinking in this thread but in no way trying to shoot the creators of the 40k Universe down. Also I'm new to this hobby, so I apologise if I am misinformed or have jumped to any conclusions.

By it's very nature, fiction is bound to recycle ideas. Joseph Campbell wrote a piece stating that there are only a finite number of stories & heroes.

My question is how much of 40k lore can be considered unique and original?

The concept of good v evil is a given, as is almost every aspect of space travel & galactic colonisation. GW's take on 'Chaos' smacks of Michael Moorcock. Elves, Dwarves & Orcs are influenced by Tolkien & Norse mythology (I'm including WHFB too). Many of the Imperial Guard regiments, and even the SM Chapters, are copies of historical cultures or folklore (everything from the Desert Rats of Tallarn & the Rambo Catachan through to the Vampires of the Blood Angels or the Werewolves of the Space Wolves...Beserkers, Praetorian Guard, the list goes on)...

...so how much of 40k lore is original material? My knowledge of SciFi & Fantasy is limited, but I imagine the Emperor & the Primarchs are fairy unique?

I hope I've been succinct enough in my line of reasoning for you to be able to take what I've asked & run with it. What do you think?

Does 40k use a lot of inspiration from history and fiction? Absolutely. But they are not really plagiarizing, they are not taking someones work and saying it's theirs, and I don't think you can plagiarize history. That said though, yes 40k is very based off other work, and put into a very unique setting.

I'd like to see the Terminator vs. Necrons, aliens vs. Tyranids, Anime vs. Tau and so on and so on.

I think the term 'derivative' is more fitting than 'plagiarised' because the latter has pretty negative connotations. It's exceedingly common in science fiction and probably in regular fiction as well I assume. It's difficult to find any modern science fiction that's overtly original in ideas, themes or characters but after reading a fair bit of sci-fi I think 40k holds up fairly well in regards to how it puts those things together cohesively; it certainly borrows from a lot of different sources though.

The Emperor always struck me as similar to the Emperor and particularly Paul Atriedes/Muad'dib in Dune (along with CHAOM being comparable to the Cult Mechanicus, Landstraad and the High Lords, Navigators and Navigators etc) but the Primarchs have no direct counterpart in those books. Genetic manipulation and the creation of super soldiers is not very original though.

I conceed that 'plagiarism' may have been too strong a term, with apologies.

No need to apologise I'm just being fussy with semantics and showing my rose-tinted fondness for science fiction

xlDuke wrote:
I think the term 'derivative' is more fitting than 'plagiarised' because the latter has pretty negative connotations. It's exceedingly common in science fiction and probably in regular fiction as well I assume. It's difficult to find any modern science fiction that's overtly original in ideas, themes or characters but after reading a fair bit of sci-fi I think 40k holds up fairly well in regards to how it puts those things together cohesively; it certainly borrows from a lot of different sources though.

The Emperor always struck me as similar to the Emperor and particularly Paul Atriedes/Muad'dib in Dune (along with CHAOM being comparable to the Cult Mechanicus, Landstraad and the High Lords, Navigators and Navigators etc) but the Primarchs have no direct counterpart in those books. Genetic manipulation and the creation of super soldiers is not very original though.

IMO the Emperor is more akin to Leto II Atreides than to Paul, they even share the title of God-Emperor. But overall yeah Dune, Morcock and in some way Lovecraft are MASSIVE sources of inspiration for GW.

The bible gets quite a good showing with the father being betrayed and opposed by his favoured son. Quite a few Judasses kicking about as well.

The Orks as presented in 40k are pretty unique, all things considered. The Harlequins are a fairly unique combination of concepts - I don't recall seeing battle-dancing historian clowns anywhere else in fiction.

Storm Troopers....

*cries*

Its Dune/Starship troopers/bible/lotr in space, mainly? Oh and Moorcraft!

Judge Dredd for the arbites. GW used to have a licence to make stuff for games based on 2000AD properties.

Starship troopers (for the power armoured soldiers aspect) but this trope also showed up in laserburn, a precursor to 40k.

Dune (as noted).

Foundation by Asimov (for the galaxy spanning empire ruled from a single cityplanet - Trantor in this case, Earth for 40k). The hive city concept came from here.

Deathworld by Harry Harrison. Concept of a world where the native flora and fauna is inimical to human life, but colonists stuck it out anyway, becoming tougher and meaner in the process.

As for the fall of the astartes and the heresy?
Paradise lost by Milton. Horus is Lucifer (the brightest one).

ALL of these have been homaged in some way into 40k.

Well, the inspiration for the Tyranids came from Alien, and the Zerg from Tyranids in turn.

Personally, I quite like it 40k in general has enough of its own unique feel that it doesn't seem played out, and all the 'inspirations' it's taken from various other fictional sources seem a little like easter-eggs for those who know

I'd posit you'd be hard pressed to find anything original in 40k

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I'd posit you'd be hard pressed to find anything original in 40k

Football hooligan Orks are the only candidate I can think of...

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I'd posit you'd be hard pressed to find anything original in 40k

or in fact in many non 40k settings.....?

Nope not the only one! I can't think of any Sci-fi where the future is gothic and reloigious and have brotherhood of genetically modified warrior monks. Plus who ever sought of having normal swords used in the far future.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PLUS we get some of the most epic characters in sci-fi in general. An all ruling semi-dead emperor, Cegorah(Not sure on the spelling), The primarchs, Abaddon and Creed. It has the best-engineered soldiers ratio included. there is about 1 million Astartes not including black shields and grey knights.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and don't forget Slaanesh:

sushi2001 wrote:
Nope not the only one! I can't think of any Sci-fi where the future is gothic and reloigious and have brotherhood of genetically modified warrior monks. Plus who ever sought of having normal swords used in the far future.

Dune would be the obvious source here? Fading Suns RPG is similar but later IIRC. Cartoon Scifi loves melee combat

Quite a lot of Sci-fi novels went down the route of Age of Sail in space complete with swords and duels broadsides and the like

sushi2001 wrote:
Plus who ever sought of having normal swords used in the far future.

First Lensman, E.E. Doc Smith, published 1950. (Mostly forgotten now but George Lucas has acknowledged it as a major influence on Star Wars)

With Dronvire of Rigel Four in the lead, closely followed by Costigan, Northrop, Kinnison the Younger, and a platoon of armed and armored Space Marines!
----
Why axes? Why not Lewistons, or rifles, or pistols? Because the space armor of that day could withstand almost indefinitely the output of two or three hand-held projectors; because the resistance of its defensive fields varied directly as the cube of the velocity of any material projectile encountering them. Thus, and strangely enough, the advance of science had forced the re-adoption of that long-extinct weapon.


Pretty much the same reason as in Dune: "The slow blade penetrates the shield."

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
I'd posit you'd be hard pressed to find anything original in 40k

or in fact in many non 40k settings.....?

I don't disagree, it's just I think many of the sources that 40k draws from are from a period before the majority of players were born, and given the modern condition of general incuriosity then 40k gets the credit for idea's that may have well started elsewhere

There are no new ideas. Originality is found in the execution and presentation of old ideas and old stories in new combinations for new audiences.

 Gashrog wrote:

sushi2001 wrote:
Plus who ever sought of having normal swords used in the far future.

First Lensman, E.E. Doc Smith, published 1950. (Mostly forgotten now but George Lucas has acknowledged it as a major influence on Star Wars)

With Dronvire of Rigel Four in the lead, closely followed by Costigan, Northrop, Kinnison the Younger, and a platoon of armed and armored Space Marines!
----
Why axes? Why not Lewistons, or rifles, or pistols? Because the space armor of that day could withstand almost indefinitely the output of two or three hand-held projectors; because the resistance of its defensive fields varied directly as the cube of the velocity of any material projectile encountering them. Thus, and strangely enough, the advance of science had forced the re-adoption of that long-extinct weapon.



Pretty much the same reason as in Dune: "The slow blade penetrates the shield."

And then there is Joe Haldeman from '74 with the Forever War with space soldiers in virtually invulnerable power armour fighting near neutron stars with swords, spears and bows. Excellent book.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
There are no new ideas. Originality is found in the execution and presentation of old ideas and old stories in new combinations for new audiences.

This.

I too subscribe to the Adeptus Mechanicus interpretation of human creativity.

I cant remember where I read this BUUUT
The Human population of Preatoria supposedly based their society on a few surviving fragments from a copy of 'Zulu' How a VHS cassette survived for that long is beyond me. How the cassette wound up on a distant, alien planet is beyond me. Maybe the Dark age of technology saw the end of wireless streaming?

Where to begin? 40K has races taken from Warhammer Fantasy that are taken from Tolkien and Mythology (Orks, Eldar, Necrons, Squats). Unashamedly, and in a fun way.

A Canticle for Leibowitz is the obvious inspiration of an Imperium which has replaced it's once vibrant technology with religiosity. Medieval Catholicism is the inspiration for the Imperium's religion, structure, and the Warrior Priests, Nuns with Guns, and the Inquisition.

Space Marines are Starship Troopers (the book not the movie). Dark Angles get their tortured secrecy from the eponymous poem by Lionel Johnson. Blood Angels are vampires. Space Wolves are viking werewolves. Tyranids are Starship Trooper Arachnids. Genestealers are Aliens.

The Lore is laced with clever (and dumb) references to all kinds of sources and inspirations. Discovering them is half the fun.

The Lore is laced with clever (and dumb) references to all kinds of sources and inspirations. Discovering them is half the fun.

Oooh, like how humans are Mon-Keigh in the elder language? Or the rainbow warriors being a reference to the rainbow warrior? And planet Birmingham, a "dark and dangerous cesspool" where no-one wants to live?

 Mr Morden wrote:

sushi2001 wrote:
Nope not the only one! I can't think of any Sci-fi where the future is gothic and reloigious and have brotherhood of genetically modified warrior monks. Plus who ever sought of having normal swords used in the far future.

Dune would be the obvious source here? Fading Suns RPG is similar but later IIRC. Cartoon Scifi loves melee combat

2000AD began publication of a gothic-y, religious-y comic story called Nemesis the Warlock in 1980. It was very obviously influential on early 40k, even more obviously so on Brian Ansell's 'prototype 40k' game Laserburn.

Yup. The immortal emperor of that story, the inquisition and purges of aliens ...

"Be PURE, Be VIGILANT, BeHAVE."

The ABC warriors story "Khronicles of Khaos" even has digs at 40k's elite shiny-booted bullyboys (The imperial rottweillers).