Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Privateer Press is changing the way they deal with rules and introduction of new models.

More info is found here.

http://privateerpress.com/community/privateer-insider/insider-12-21-2016

All in all, they seem like positive changes and I'm looking forward to the future.

Knight

I'm very glad that they recognized, and in part even admitted, that Mk3 development was a giant dumb clusterfeth. Good changes all round and I welcome our new "living card deck" overlords.

Sounds like they've made a choice they had to make with the way MK3 is reportedly going down with the playbase

Now I guess the big question is if books without stats and thus no real reason for the 'I just play the game, I don't care about the fluff' trournament players are going to sell well enough to actually see physical print going forward

for something like 40K I still think enough of the playbase cares about the background for it to work, but for warmachine/hordes I'm not convinced. I suspect after the next books hit we may see them transitioning them to e-book only too

Well that's... interesting. I loathe it when people fiddle with their phones all game long and I detest the war room app and now it will be even more popular.

I like that they're going to make it so all the stat cards can be viewed for free but still they they should include a nice printed copy with the miniature. Honestly most model rules don't change all that often - the errata often just clarifies things for very obscure situations. In the past people with the warroom app often brought their cards as well so their opponent could review unfamiliar stats/special rules and so that they would have a backup if their device died - now that you have to print or pay for the cards, I see that practice dying.

The biggest thing for me is that you can now post stats and rules openly on the forums! It was so frustrating not to be able to, so I'm happy about that

Sounds like they committed to making unit stats free - which is great. I haven't played Mk3 because the cost of upgrading the cards for the six factions I have models in was too expensive (digital and physical). But are players going to be willing to pay $60 for War Room cards when they can just use a PDF viewer now? And nobody was really buying the books before, but I definitely don't think they will now. And I guess now that models don't come with cards, are they going to come with codes that give you the War Room versions? Or do they expect every War Room user to just get the $10 faction packs in addition to the models? Also, War Room kinda sucks.

I'm not sure whether they completely thought this through. That being said, I applaud the move to free unit rules. I'd never try Mk3 without them.

So Matt Wilson is finally getting the video game he has wanted for almost 20 years.

Matt Wilson wrote:When we commit to a final decision in print and that choice is later found to be incorrect or problematic, the only solution is to publish the dreaded errata, which undermines the integrity of the printed product and necessitates printing replacements for components used during gameplay. By contrast, the video game industry has long enjoyed the advantage of being able to digitally patch software due to the absence of a physical product. A video game can be continually expanded and updated to maintain the balance and integrity of the game experience. It is that flexibility we want to bring to WARMACHINE & HORDES and to our community... by moving away from rules printed on paper and embracing the technology that will allow us to deliver and update rules digitally, we can maintain a gaming experience on the tabletop that is as up to date and balanced as any video game.

That sounds good, though I liked the cards.

I was shying away from getting into mark III because I figured something like this would come along. Good on them. Also makes me more interested in the books since I was mainly getting them for the fluff anyway.

Painted, cardless, eBay rescued models sit on the shelf nodding in their vindication.

Overall I think it's a good thing - (and they had already taken steps toward it during the MK3 launch) but man the timing of it really sucks.

I'll bet a beer we will be able to print the cards ourselves, that the cards come in a fine PDF format like the MkIII v2 "patch".

Well they did say as much . They'll be offered in a print on demand service, along with versions to print at home (that fold for the front/back split).

Would this approach work with GW?

So they're outsourcing playtesting to the fans in order to just shrug their shoulders and pass the blame when models come out that unbalance game.

And they're pimping the electronic garbage bin that's Warroom by taking away anything physical.

I stepped away from Menoth for Mk III and it looks like it was the right move.

Would this approach work with GW?

Given the way codexes and books get routinely scanned and distributed in some places I'd think it would be a great move for GW. But the pay to win army book of the season is such a profit driver for them I can't see them ever making the change.

I was more thinking about making the rules a 'living' rules, where updates are centralised (though an app, Emperor help us), testing is done more frequently (and with a much larger sample size) leading to a far better game.

They can still do campaign books with their own unique campaign-specific formations/rules and so on.

Honestly PP has changed a lot since I first started playing them and that was only 3-4 years ago? They had much more solid rules back then and if they errata'ed anything, it was usually minor and not a huge deal.

MK3 PP however? The latest errata changed so many things, point costs, abilities, spells, feats etc. If this is the way they're going forward, it's going to be very confusing to play. I used to be able to know what most casters/units did because I played it a lot over 2 years and their stats didn't change at all.

Now this? People are basically going to have to relearn the meta every 6 months or so it seems. Not because they have new stuff but because PP suddenly changed a lot of old stuff.

And in MK2 players were fed up when the meta didn't significantly change for 6 months. So...

Overall its a good thing. There will be a few rounds of major errata early on, just like there was in MK2, but then things will stabilize. The important thing is they retain the willingness to make major changes, so that we don't get another era of 2 casters defining the meta and the quality of everything else being determined by those two casters.

The errata itself is a great direction. A couple major issues got missed (High Reclaimer and Una) and it was more about nerfing the top 5% than buffing the bottom, but another errata of this quality (and a new faction next month :p ) and the game will probably be the best its been as far as I'm concerned.

Sining wrote:
People are basically going to have to relearn the meta every 6 months or so it seems. Not because they have new stuff but because PP suddenly changed a lot of old stuff.

Is that a bad thing though?

I mean if I look at it like, say, Magic or even something like Hearthstone. Those games keep changing the meta. Now they do so through forced obsolescence, and I wouldn't necessarily want that in a miniatures game, but a living style rules could allow for greater changes to the game without everyone having to rebuy everything every 6 years (or 2, in 40K's case).

Looks ok to me.

PP is having hits and misses in MK3. My Trollbloods are left in the attic as they are boring, while my Cygnar looks varied and fun to play.

The errata brought down the strongest bits, and upped some of the weakest elements as PP saw it.

Now people get to playtest stuff. Something which GW has been critized for not doing for years. PP doing playtests is not a bad thing in my book.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I was more thinking about making the rules a 'living' rules, where updates are centralised (though an app, Emperor help us), testing is done more frequently (and with a much larger sample size) leading to a far better game.

They can still do campaign books with their own unique campaign-specific formations/rules and so on.

I think they could, and to be fair they have already gone a fair way down this path with Age of Sigmar.

The reason to buy the actual physical books is much more about getting story and setting rather than actual rules. All the unit rules are freely available as are the core rules. Also, they are actively trying to get community input into things like FAQs, I know that people who participated in the recent Warlords tourney were asked for army list feedback and generally there seems to be a desire to get a good feedback loop between players and GW.

Obviously whether this will translate into 40K is not clear at this point but they have shown with AoS that they can do it.

What I find interesting about this is the acknowledgement of the business impact on the field test run for MK II (negative) and a lot of the proposed changes are what I would expect to see from a company looking to shrink its expense base.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Sining wrote:
People are basically going to have to relearn the meta every 6 months or so it seems. Not because they have new stuff but because PP suddenly changed a lot of old stuff.

Is that a bad thing though?

I mean if I look at it like, say, Magic or even something like Hearthstone. Those games keep changing the meta. Now they do so through forced obsolescence, and I wouldn't necessarily want that in a miniatures game, but a living style rules could allow for greater changes to the game without everyone having to rebuy everything every 6 years (or 2, in 40K's case).

Sucks for those who can only get 1 or 2 game per month though. You basically never get to learn it so going to tournaments is likely exercise in futility.

They must have figured with everything Guild Ball was copying from them they might as well copy some of how Guild Ball does it right back.

Cool, printing out my own cards legally sounds cool. I hate fiddling with my phone!!!!!
I remember one time that we had a player that couldnt read the small print on the cards, so he had oversized large cards he made himself. I remember one dickish opponent said he was cheating and tried to get the TO to get him DQ,
I might do that, fiddling with a phone and small cards is a pain.

Personally anymore I've found I prefer fiddling with my phone over fiddling with a stack of cards to track stuff. I do want to get an iPad though almost purely to use as cards for games.

tneva82 wrote:


Sucks for those who can only get 1 or 2 game per month though. You basically never get to learn it so going to tournaments is likely exercise in futility.

I see what you mean, but I wonder if that is really much of a change? 1-2 games a month is not a lot of practice for tournaments in any case At least in my experience... I might just be bad at the game


Overall, I am happy with this little release. Free cards? Good. Faster errata and balance tweaks? Good. Taking player feedback more seriously, and letting players in the wild play test things again? Good.
I have a lot of models sitting on a shelf that should see new life if those things are all true. Free cards should also open up the option for counts-as armies a bit more too. I just bought all the decks in Warroom oh so long ago, but being able to just grab a bunch of models from other games and systems and build a list to try out with your buddies for no investment is a really nice thing.

All in all, it seems that PP has decided that they are a company that makes a balanced game that induces people to buy models, and that the game can be a loss leader if it is good enough to keep people playing in a serious way. That sounds great to me. GW lost me when I decided the rules just weren't worth playing, especially if I didn't want a huge handicap by not playing only the new power armies and builds. If PP can keep their rules fun and functional, as well as letting me use units/models I want without being totally handicapped, I'll stick around for much longer.

I don't have or indeed want any devices that can use this type of APP thing - but i can see that many people do.

We discussed this the other night with our group - more on the ramifications if / when other companies follow suit.

Most of us were disapointed (but then we are quite old) and also confirmed that its far easierfor several people to check / compare / discuss rules with a book than a (often tiny) screen, however the world marches on

It seems like most people, (my group included) are missing the part where they say you can still purchase cards from PP. Nothing major is changing for most players except the occasional need to look up a rule via an electronic device.

They've said they're looking at a third party print on demand service so hopefully it will be reasonable prices. The prices of the cards are fine from PP now, but the shipping is silly.