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Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

To be fair i dont believe that the Big ead' Bunker ISNT meant to be tellyported.

Its open topped ability reads that units remain stationary unless they embarked "this turn".

If you started the game, with units deployed inside the bunker, how the hell could they NOT be stationary if the bunker cant move? Clearly they could only ever "move" if its tellyported in because it cant otherwise move unless you pull some evil sunz shinenigans. The entire sentence to include they remain stationary unless they embarked this turn is useless to include on a vehicle that cant move... unless it CAN move (aka tellyport --> redeployed --> count as moved, normally).

Ergo id say its not a mistake that it can be tellyported in, because thats the only time that sentence would make sense. that you can tellyport it in, thus those inside of it have redeployed and thus moved, however it simply states they remain stationary like squiggoths, saving flash gits and tankbustas the heartache of "having moved" when its tellyported in.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 05:58:15


Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Wakshaani wrote:
gungo wrote:
After looking at my snagga box kinda disappointed how all the new models are monopose.


I believe that ALL new models for the forseeable future will be monopose.

It's to break the back of the bits industry.


The issue is more likely that they use CAD models now and cut them into injection-moldable pieces using an algorithm. Unless models are specifically designed to have "slots" for different bits, they are mono-pose by default. There is no malice found here, the just aren't investing the extra time because that time can be spend on even more models.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in au
Growlin' Guntrukk Driver with Killacannon





Beardedragon wrote:
To be fair i dont believe that the Big ead' Bunker ISNT meant to be tellyported.

Its open topped ability reads that units remain stationary unless they embarked "this turn".

If you started the game, with units deployed inside the bunker, how the hell could they NOT be stationary if the bunker cant move? Clearly they could only ever "move" if its tellyported in because it cant otherwise move unless you pull some evil sunz shinenigans. The entire sentence to include they remain stationary unless they embarked this turn is useless to include on a vehicle that cant move... unless it CAN move (aka tellyport --> redeployed --> count as moved, normally).

Ergo id say its not a mistake that it can be tellyported in, because thats the only time that sentence would make sense. that you can tellyport it in, thus those inside of it have redeployed and thus moved, however it simply states they remain stationary like squiggoths, saving flash gits and tankbustas the heartache of "having moved" when its tellyported in.


I think the rules have always struggled with things that are able to do something due to a rule but suddenly stops being able to do something. As an example, a librarian dred can get fly and thus move up onto a building. What happens if said dread fails to cast wings? Meaning he can't be on said upper floor, can't move off said upper floor, just exists in an odd rule limbo?

In the same way, tellyported units count as moving that turn, a fortification generally can't move. But the rule only really occurs when the unit is on the table, not off it/before being deployed. Mebbie it'll get FAQed, until then Imma say yes, Tellyport the buildings. If feels exceptionally orky to have bunkers appear in a flash of lightning, or be used like shoddily constructed droppods. Worth having 3 drop down all at once in front of the enemy? Zog if I know but I wanna do it!
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Fight last is *crushingly* scary for Orks, yeah. One reason I'm looking again at shoota boys. The trick, I think, is to not think of them as a "Sit n Shoot", rather a good wave of plinking to soften the enemy up before a charge, getting 100% use out of 'em.

Choppa boys get one token pistol shot, then +1 atack at -1AP.

Shootaboys get 3 shots, then the normal level of melee swings after that. Are 3 shoota shots the same as +1 swing with -1 AP? *Maybe*. I think that the math is just *barely* in favor of the choppas, but with so many "Fight last" powers out there, it might be better to keep the lads back a bit until the enemy's not quite so mobbed-up.

Lots of math going on right now. Kans are looking *shockingly* good investments, even better than bikes if you can believe that, but only in small squads. (3 looks best, 5 at the largest) … at 8 pts per wound for a T5, Ramshackle, 3+ unit, they have the chubbiness that you need to outlast some units. They'll fall down and die against power fists of course, but against normal troopers, or their powersword-armed cousins, they can really go. Morale's an issue so you can't go *big*, but a trio's roughly the same cost as 10 boys with a big shoota and big choppa or five intercessors with a power fist while being more durable than either (and having better firepower than the marines, too.)

Meganobs lacking Invulnerables is going to get them splattered everywhere that you want to use them, but Nobs? Same cost as two boys, same number of wounds, but a 4+ save instead of a 6+ means that they're a better investment but with a tad less killpower.

Bikes are also there, at 8.33 pints per wound, the same T5, and 4+ save, but also -1 to-be hit, which is huge in terms of durability.

At 12.5 pts a wound, I'm not sold on Deffkoptas yet. There badly needed to be a verion for 40 pts that carried twin Big Shootas instead of Rokkits. That would have gotten the cost-per-wound down and given them a few other options. Yes, the rokkits are *vastly* better for firepower, but comparing 6 Tankbuster to 3 Deffkoptas, which would be in the HOTLY CONTESTED fast Attack slot vs the far more open Elites slot … I think the Koptas stay on the shelf and that's sad as I love the lil guys.

Still a lot of math to do.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 koooaei wrote:
Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.

You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.

Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.


I think that relic is pretty much mandatory when you play evil suns now. It's the bone they threw dem red ladz for degrading their trait to blood axe levels of usefulness.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

cody.d. wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
To be fair i dont believe that the Big ead' Bunker ISNT meant to be tellyported.

Its open topped ability reads that units remain stationary unless they embarked "this turn".

If you started the game, with units deployed inside the bunker, how the hell could they NOT be stationary if the bunker cant move? Clearly they could only ever "move" if its tellyported in because it cant otherwise move unless you pull some evil sunz shinenigans. The entire sentence to include they remain stationary unless they embarked this turn is useless to include on a vehicle that cant move... unless it CAN move (aka tellyport --> redeployed --> count as moved, normally).

Ergo id say its not a mistake that it can be tellyported in, because thats the only time that sentence would make sense. that you can tellyport it in, thus those inside of it have redeployed and thus moved, however it simply states they remain stationary like squiggoths, saving flash gits and tankbustas the heartache of "having moved" when its tellyported in.


I think the rules have always struggled with things that are able to do something due to a rule but suddenly stops being able to do something. As an example, a librarian dred can get fly and thus move up onto a building. What happens if said dread fails to cast wings? Meaning he can't be on said upper floor, can't move off said upper floor, just exists in an odd rule limbo?

In the same way, tellyported units count as moving that turn, a fortification generally can't move. But the rule only really occurs when the unit is on the table, not off it/before being deployed. Mebbie it'll get FAQed, until then Imma say yes, Tellyport the buildings. If feels exceptionally orky to have bunkers appear in a flash of lightning, or be used like shoddily constructed droppods. Worth having 3 drop down all at once in front of the enemy? Zog if I know but I wanna do it!


To me the big ead' bunker feels more like a drop pod really

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

 Jidmah wrote:
Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.


its good from a gameplay point of view. But i feel like they should have been larger. they seem way too small to me. I even made a facebook post about it lol.

But yea from a gameplay point of view its super. dont look very intimidating though

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Jidmah wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.

You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.

Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.


I think that relic is pretty much mandatory when you play evil suns now. It's the bone they threw dem red ladz for degrading their trait to blood axe levels of usefulness.


I think blood axes can be quite good, actually. Our shooting is so good, we want to max they buggies. And we suddenly become vulnerable to our old tactics of t1 mellee that ties you till t2 and gets you locked in your dz. But a detachment with blood axe buggies can be quite effective with their fall-back + shoot. As your main detachment is probably gona be freebootas, you won't benefit from +1 to hit till you actually kill something. So, if you get that shots from a falling back buggy that soften up the opponent for the freebootas kill, you're actually gaining firepower vs opponents that tie you up t1.

Also, blood axe kommandoez get 3+ in the open if the enemy is >18 away. Which is great for scoring points as they are almost always out in the open. A backup squad alongside that mek guns can be really handy.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 06:42:11


 
   
Made in cz
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





Prague

Actualy, when I see the mess, I' m happy that I stick with the old dex due tournaments in next few weeks…

Anyway, I ' ve found few small changes not mentioned already

1. MSJ has finaly the wording, saying just one twin big shoota has +1 to hit due grot. This is good.
2. Grot oilers are no more counted as MODEL. Just mandatory indicator. So no more “Grot oiler shield”. Ammo runts also disappeared.
3. Change in the rules for Mek Gun crew. This grots ARE counted as MODELS, but cannot be targeted and visibility and LOS is measured from the gun. And this crew have to be 1” from the gun and than there is a very strange sentence forbiding this UNIT (they mean the crew? Never called a UNIT before, UNIT is the whole pack mek gun + crew) advance, charge, pile in or consolidate.

Which RAW makes whole mek gun unit almost unable to to advance, charge, pile in or consolidate and is a pretty big mess.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 07:04:04


9000pt and one Ad Mech T-shirt 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 koooaei wrote:
I think blood axes can be quite good, actually. Our shooting is so good, we want to max they buggies. And we suddenly become vulnerable to our old tactics of t1 mellee that ties you till t2 and gets you locked in your dz. But a detachment with blood axe buggies can be quite effective with their fall-back + shoot. As your main detachment is probably gona be freebootas, you won't benefit from +1 to hit till you actually kill something. So, if you get that shots from a falling back buggy that soften up the opponent for the freebootas kill, you're actually gaining firepower vs opponents that tie you up t1.

Also, blood axe kommandoez get 3+ in the open if the enemy is >18 away. Which is great for scoring points as they are almost always out in the open. A backup squad alongside that mek guns can be really handy.


Oh, don't get me wrong - in 8th all they had was Snikrot, full stop. In actual games, picking blood axes was the same as just not having a culture. Now they have snikrot who now buffs the vastly improved new kommandoz, a good relic, good warlord trait and a great stratagem. With such a line-up having an extremely situational trait is not a problem, and they are on par with most clans now.

The trait is completely worthless for buggies though. If you fall back, you can only shoot or charge. If you stay put, you get to shoot AND fight, and you get to chose one buggy to fight before your opponent. Outside of edge cases, even the scrapjet with all its blast weapons usually is better off shooting big shootas and using the drill than falling back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tomsug wrote:
3. Change in the rules for Mek Gun crew. This grots ARE counted as MODELS, but cannot be targeted and visibility and LOS is measured from the gun. And this crew have to be 1” from the gun and than there is a very strange sentence forbiding this UNIT (they mean the crew?) advance, charge, pile in or consolidate.

Which RAW makes whole mek gun unit almost unable to to advance, charge, pile in or consolidate and is a pretty big mess.


Not "almost". Unit refers to the whole thing, mek guns are not allowed to do anything but do a normal 3" move, ever. It's pretty much a return to artillery rules of previous editions.
Mek guns are now a unit of 1-3 mek guns that do not split up and each mek gun consists of the gun itself and the 5 crewmen that have to be within 1" of the gun.

While this crew problem remains stupid in practice, RAW is pretty clear.

That said, I totally want to run a unit of 3 bubblechukkas now to bring back SSAG levels of randomness

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 07:09:17


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in no
Rogue Grot Kannon Gunna






 kingbbobb wrote:
 Emicrania wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
so last night i finished my 7th match with the new codex

dakka jets are rock star, currently i think in the running for the best unit in the book.



I'm sorry, how? I had 3 games and the DJ is nothing but a disappointment. It averages 12 hits with the KJ and 6 supashoota for the price of 1 and half squigbuggy. What did you test it against it?


not a fan myself but did you use the more dakka kustom job ? or fly boys specialist mob ?


the more dakka give you an average of 5 extra shots and fly boyz means you should not take trukk boyz, which is absurd. I will try the DJ a bit more, but is underwhelming at best.
   
Made in fr
Mutilatin' Mad Dok






You cant use the KMBlasta kustom job on a grot mega tank (only on MEKS), can people please stop talking about 7d3 + 7 kmb shots ? It will only create confusion for those who don’t have the codex yet, and perhaps fool some into buying one (though it is a good unit anyway, won’t be the worst investment )

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 08:46:58


Ere we go ere we go ere we go
Corona Givin’ Umies Da good ol Krulpin they deserve huh huh 
   
Made in cz
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





Prague

 Jidmah wrote:

Not "almost". Unit refers to the whole thing, mek guns are not allowed to do anything but do a normal 3" move, ever. It's pretty much a return to artillery rules of previous editions.
Mek guns are now a unit of 1-3 mek guns that do not split up and each mek gun consists of the gun itself and the 5 crewmen that have to be within 1" of the gun.

While this crew problem remains stupid in practice, RAW is pretty clear……


Oups. Ok.
Anyway - another issue - Traktor Kannon rule says “add +2 to hit roll” vs. Core Rules “a hit roll can never be modified more than +/-1”

That was the reason why they changed the SJD and Kannonwagon etc. rules from “add +2” to “have BS 3+” etc.

Well, do you remeber in the past releasing codex in some limited box and than make a normal release couple of months after? I don' t want to discuss GW business, just one thread-related idea cross my mind - from when can we play the new codex on tournaments?

Because I also publish books. I know how long what takes etc.

Books are printed in a single wave. You set up the machine and run it. Most of the costs is setting the machine up. So there are two options

1. All codexes are printed blocking the storage space and waiting for something. I don' t know, until Kill Rigs are produced or whatever. This option means, that all the bugs we discussing here comes in the codex anyway and in the same time, we recieve a masive FAQ based on our emails about them. This mean, we can expect codex anytime August 15th+ This is good.

2. Codex writing crew missed the deadline. So they printed just a limited amount of snaga beast codexes knowing it' s full of bugs, but limited version so who cares and in the meantime they are working on ork codex 9.1 that went to print few months later. Maybe not in print yet. And print takes just a month. This option has 2 consequences:
- regular codex comes in October without the major bugsso we gonna play old dex on tournaments until october
- snaga box codex will be like Blue Mauricius - it will have a value for collectors
This is even better. Because my old codex army is finaly full painted and I want to enjoy it




9000pt and one Ad Mech T-shirt 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I think it's more likely the main codex print run got delayed due to shipping issues or something.

And/or they've always intended to do this staged release, it encourages people to buy Beast Snaggaz so that they can get their rules early.
They've done it before, such as the Heavy Intercessors staggered release.
   
Made in it
Gargantuan Gargant




Italy

 Tomsug wrote:


That was the reason why they changed the SJD and Kannonwagon etc. rules from “add +2” to “have BS 3+” etc.


It's +2 to hit vs aircraft which all come with a natural -1 to hit, and modifiers are cumulative so the mek gunz actually gets +1 to hit in total. No mistakes here, the traktor hits on 3s against flyers.


 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






 Jidmah wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
I think blood axes can be quite good, actually. Our shooting is so good, we want to max they buggies. And we suddenly become vulnerable to our old tactics of t1 mellee that ties you till t2 and gets you locked in your dz. But a detachment with blood axe buggies can be quite effective with their fall-back + shoot. As your main detachment is probably gona be freebootas, you won't benefit from +1 to hit till you actually kill something. So, if you get that shots from a falling back buggy that soften up the opponent for the freebootas kill, you're actually gaining firepower vs opponents that tie you up t1.

Also, blood axe kommandoez get 3+ in the open if the enemy is >18 away. Which is great for scoring points as they are almost always out in the open. A backup squad alongside that mek guns can be really handy.


Oh, don't get me wrong - in 8th all they had was Snikrot, full stop. In actual games, picking blood axes was the same as just not having a culture. Now they have snikrot who now buffs the vastly improved new kommandoz, a good relic, good warlord trait and a great stratagem. With such a line-up having an extremely situational trait is not a problem, and they are on par with most clans now.

The trait is completely worthless for buggies though. If you fall back, you can only shoot or charge. If you stay put, you get to shoot AND fight, and you get to chose one buggy to fight before your opponent. Outside of edge cases, even the scrapjet with all its blast weapons usually is better off shooting big shootas and using the drill than falling back.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tomsug wrote:
3. Change in the rules for Mek Gun crew. This grots ARE counted as MODELS, but cannot be targeted and visibility and LOS is measured from the gun. And this crew have to be 1” from the gun and than there is a very strange sentence forbiding this UNIT (they mean the crew?) advance, charge, pile in or consolidate.

Which RAW makes whole mek gun unit almost unable to to advance, charge, pile in or consolidate and is a pretty big mess.


Not "almost". Unit refers to the whole thing, mek guns are not allowed to do anything but do a normal 3" move, ever. It's pretty much a return to artillery rules of previous editions.
Mek guns are now a unit of 1-3 mek guns that do not split up and each mek gun consists of the gun itself and the 5 crewmen that have to be within 1" of the gun.

While this crew problem remains stupid in practice, RAW is pretty clear.

That said, I totally want to run a unit of 3 bubblechukkas now to bring back SSAG levels of randomness


The thing is that in most situations you have to fall back to either not loose a unit or allow the rest of the army to shoot at what's been locking you down. My concern is with the t1 charges that are not so rare anymore. I've been using this tactics too often to undervalue the fall back and shoot blood axes can provide for screening buggies. It's much more important in this matchups than extra shooting that freebootas might provide otherwise. Besides, with how freebootas work, you might not loose anything at all - only gain. As you still have to kill something first. And there's a number of armies on top tables that are very hard to get that kill out from. You might waste 1k worth of shooting to kill those 3 custodians with -1 to hit and 1+ or even 0+ in cover.
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Honestly, neither in 8th nor in 9th have I once been in a situation where I wanted to fall back from a unit that would kill a buggy otherwise. Either they get killed in the turn they are charged or the unit struggle to do damage to them.

Even if you do get charged T1 and survive, just shooting the unit while you are in combat and hindering their movement is superior to falling back.

I can see the scenarios happening that you are describing, not usually less than once per game - at which point it's not really worth considering for your strategy, similar to a very narrow stratagem.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

well. At least the scrapjets wont be firing their rokkits in CC anymore, as they are blast.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






Beardedragon wrote:
well. At least the scrapjets wont be firing their rokkits in CC anymore, as they are blast.


They were already blast before. In combat you still have the nose drill and you get to shoot your big shootas and wing missle, so you are essentially trading 4 WS 4+ attacks with d3 damage for 3d3 BS5+ attacks with 3 damage. So while there is a slight improvement, I'd wager that any clan traits with a damage buff will be better than that.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






But when you need to fall back, you trade your regular shooting for nothing.
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.


What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Question, since the mega Grot tank is decent, what about the small ones.

45 pts for a Rockit or KMB seems not really bad.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/29 11:22:18


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in de
Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 koooaei wrote:
But when you need to fall back, you trade your regular shooting for nothing.


Yeah, but that usually only happens once every other game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pepi55 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.


What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?


Nob on smasha squig.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 11:22:05


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in dk
Longtime Dakkanaut




Danmark

 Jidmah wrote:
Beardedragon wrote:
well. At least the scrapjets wont be firing their rokkits in CC anymore, as they are blast.


They were already blast before. In combat you still have the nose drill and you get to shoot your big shootas and wing missle, so you are essentially trading 4 WS 4+ attacks with d3 damage for 3d3 BS5+ attacks with 3 damage. So while there is a slight improvement, I'd wager that any clan traits with a damage buff will be better than that.


oh christ i forgot.

Hope, is the first step on the road to disappointment.

- About Dawn of War 3 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Wakshaani wrote:
Fight last is *crushingly* scary for Orks, yeah. One reason I'm looking again at shoota boys. The trick, I think, is to not think of them as a "Sit n Shoot", rather a good wave of plinking to soften the enemy up before a charge, getting 100% use out of 'em.

Choppa boys get one token pistol shot, then +1 atack at -1AP.

Shootaboys get 3 shots, then the normal level of melee swings after that. Are 3 shoota shots the same as +1 swing with -1 AP? *Maybe*. I think that the math is just *barely* in favor of the choppas, but with so many "Fight last" powers out there, it might be better to keep the lads back a bit until the enemy's not quite so mobbed-up.

Lots of math going on right now. Kans are looking *shockingly* good investments, even better than bikes if you can believe that, but only in small squads. (3 looks best, 5 at the largest) … at 8 pts per wound for a T5, Ramshackle, 3+ unit, they have the chubbiness that you need to outlast some units. They'll fall down and die against power fists of course, but against normal troopers, or their powersword-armed cousins, they can really go. Morale's an issue so you can't go *big*, but a trio's roughly the same cost as 10 boys with a big shoota and big choppa or five intercessors with a power fist while being more durable than either (and having better firepower than the marines, too.)

Meganobs lacking Invulnerables is going to get them splattered everywhere that you want to use them, but Nobs? Same cost as two boys, same number of wounds, but a 4+ save instead of a 6+ means that they're a better investment but with a tad less killpower.

Bikes are also there, at 8.33 pints per wound, the same T5, and 4+ save, but also -1 to-be hit, which is huge in terms of durability.

At 12.5 pts a wound, I'm not sold on Deffkoptas yet. There badly needed to be a verion for 40 pts that carried twin Big Shootas instead of Rokkits. That would have gotten the cost-per-wound down and given them a few other options. Yes, the rokkits are *vastly* better for firepower, but comparing 6 Tankbuster to 3 Deffkoptas, which would be in the HOTLY CONTESTED fast Attack slot vs the far more open Elites slot … I think the Koptas stay on the shelf and that's sad as I love the lil guys.

Still a lot of math to do.


Shoota boyz in Dakka range (Won't happen often) average 1 hit per model, that works out to 0.5 wounds and against a Marine save 0.166dmg. When they get into CC they have 2 attacks for 1.33 hits, 0.66 wounds and against a Marine that is 0.22dmg. The choppa boyz suck at ranged combat, but inside the same dakka range average 0.33 hits, 0.17ish wounds and 0.06 dmg In CC however they get 3 attacks, 2 hits , 1 wound and 0.5dmg. Not to mention there are a lot more +1 to hit in CC rules than +1 to hit at range. Choppa boyz are significantly better.

Kanz are DOA for me. Lack of access to kulture yet again means that they are always going to play second fiddle to a host of regular Ork models. Deffkoptas are 5ppm cheaper when armed with 2x the rokkitz, they are significantly faster and benefit from kultures. its not even a contest honestly. The only reason to include kanz at all is the fact that our Heavy Support choices are somewhat crap...except for the new Rigs.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Grot Tanks arent overpowered, theyre more just good enough to actually be able to use now (clealry better options)
The Grot Mega Tank is 160pts for 7d3 KMB shots hitting on 4s, and if they dont fix that kustom job its 7D3+7 kmb shots for 170pts.

That is a LOT of S8 Ap3 D6 damage. Even if odds are it will nuke its own brains out (note that they 'fixed' kmb guys it can cause multiple mortals with the same gun now). Grot Mega Tanks arent exactly super tanky but theyre tanky enough where something more expensive than them is going to be invested to get rid of it.
That amount of firepower will reliably delete just about anything w/o a 4++ - it will probably die either in the process or shortly after, but given its cost...thats fine


Adding to my first post. 160pts gets you 7D3 KMBs hitting on 4s Vs 3 Deff Koptas which get Kulture which get you 6 D3 Rokkitz. I'll take the Koptas, especially since they will have easy access to -1 to hit.

 Emicrania wrote:

I'm sorry, how? I had 3 games and the DJ is nothing but a disappointment. It averages 12 hits with the KJ and 6 supashoota for the price of 1 and half squigbuggy. What did you test it against it?


I think you are actually right about the Dakkajet. Sadly I think its dmg output is over stated. I personally think Lootas are in a bad place for dmg output and point for point they out perform the dakkajet. The only upside is that its -1 to hit which is nice. But you would get more benefit out of taking 5 warbikers, who without being in Dakkarange get you 30 shots and 10 hits at a lesser profile but in dakkarange go to 50 shots and during a speed Waaagh get 60 at -1AP compared to the DJ getting 42 at -2AP. I sadly think they need to increase the Dakkajets number of shots, give it D2 or make it even cheaper, about 80pts base so with the 2 extra gunz it would be 100pts.




 Xenomancers wrote:
It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.
 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






 koooaei wrote:
Oh btw, guyz, it seems I found a semi-solution for our fight last problem. If you, like me, was ditching your meganobz cause they didn't stand a chance vs mellee oriented enemies with fight last (de, da, dg...) we have Redder armor artifact that forces the enemy in mellee with a bearer to go last.

You could take an evil sun trike that would get 18 movement! If you're running a regular Waaagh or grand Waaagh, you could give him squig tires for 19 movement and 12 advance with a charge afterwards. That's literally able to roll across the board and make that charge.

Not that it's always optimal but it's sure an option if you want that death ball of nobz or kanz get a swing vs something like death wing termies.


Yea, my sunz list is:

Patrol with the warlord Deffkilla Trike (Fasta than Yous trait+Redder Armor)

Outrider with a Warboss on Bike (Killa Klaw+Brutal but Kunnin)

If something needs killed and the deffkilla doesnt have the teef to do it, the murderboss goes in with him.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Question, since the mega Grot tank is decent, what about the small ones.

45 pts for a Rockit or KMB seems not really bad.


not bad IMO but categorically outperformed by Deffkoptas.

I'm using 'em for fun anyway though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 11:57:46


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Yeah, same conclusion, just took a look at the kromelch ones and had a talk with a friend that owns the FW compendium.

3+ armor and ramshkle with 4 wounds and T5 isn't halfways bad either.


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






I like the dakkajet but I like the blitza-bommer more for a vehicle-focused list.

Doesn't eat up any slots (kind of a key feature for us tbh), drops half of a Flying 'Eadbutt without killing itself, and then does it again a second time if it is allowed to survive, and strategically it gives you an ideal piece for a vehicle-focused list: A temptation for your opponent to avoid attacking lynchpin models in your list.

Did you bring a Morkanaut as your KFF-granter and pop the 5++ after losing first turn?

Did you bring Trukk Boyz squads that are going to dump and charge if their transport isn't killed?

Did you bring a glass cannon GMT or Deffcoptas with low defense and high offense?

Then your opponent still has to consider if they want to attack those or if they have to make sure that super obnoxious to kill plane doesn't dump a bucket of mortal wounds on their army.

The dakkajet is in no way a pressure piece. It presents my opponent with no tough choices - it will never, ever, ever, ever be targeted by a competent enemy who can instead target units that exert board control and have melee threat spikes. The blitza is absolutely bringing that to the table, it takes everything that's awesome about the drukhari voidraven bomber and it gives you a SECOND bomb as a bonus just to punish your opponent for not targeting it and to make it still a big threat piece if you get the first turn and strips something like 70pts off the price tag.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here's what I'm considering for a dread waagh list:

Goffs Patrol

HQ: Mek Boss Buzzgob 100pts
HQ: Warboss on Warbike 115pts (Warlord Trait: Brutal but Kunnin', Relic: Da Killa Klaw)

Troops: 10x Choppa Boyz 90, Power Klaw nob 10 (Trukk Boyz)
Transport: Trukk 70
Troops: 10x Gretchins 50pts
Troops: 10x Gretchins 50pts

Elites: Nob with Waagh Banner 70pts

Heavy Support: 3x Deff Dreads 255pts (All Klawz)
Heavy Support: 3x Deff Dreads 305pts (All Klawz, 1 all KMBs with extra kustom KJ)
Heavy Support: 6x Killa Kanz 285pts (3x with rokkits, 3x with big shootas)

Flyer: Blitza-Bommer 150pts

Fortification: Mekboy Workshop 70pts

Super Heavy Auxiliary Goffs

Morkanaut with Kustom Force Field 380pts (Big Krumpas if Specialist Mobz get faqed to not remove clan)

Mekboy Workshop deploys farther up the battlefield to repair and distribute free kustom jobs, Morkanaut goes in the middle ready to grant 5++ if I lose first turn, blitza is there to draw attention away from the Morka and Killa Kanz early. I'm 50-50 on the trukk boyz, the rest of the list is a turn 2 tempo and that's probably when I'm popping the waaagh, so i might just leave them as Goffs. Damn do I wish Killa Kanz could be boom boys.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 12:40:37


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in bg
Regular Dakkanaut




Jidmah wrote:
 koooaei wrote:
But when you need to fall back, you trade your regular shooting for nothing.


Yeah, but that usually only happens once every other game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
pepi55 wrote:
Jidmah wrote:Finally got by box as well. I am positively surprised how small the squig riders and their nobz are. Being on they same base as warbikers, it's a lot easier to hide them and squeeze past terrain than I assumed. I also like how you can bring two of the nobz without using up a slot, they should be rather easy to get in combat if you keep them close to buggies or koptas, they are good a busting them out of tarpit and worst case you can just ram them into something for mortal wounds. 6 Attacks with S6 AP-1 2dmg isn't bad either, especially if you get +1 to wound. At 65 they also are cheap enough to just throw away.


What nob are you talking about? The squigrider unit has no nobz and the nob on smashasquig is a 1 model unit?


Nob on smasha squig.


How do you take an extra one without taking up a slot? is there some special rule I missed?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/29 12:59:30


 
   
 
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