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I know this question comes up reasonably frequently, but I don't think I've ever seen a topic dedicated to figuring which to use since the advent of the Riptide Wing. Outside of the Wing and Riptides with an ECPA, I'm of the opinion that the IA is pretty clearly the way to go. Tau don't have all that much low-AP shooting, so bringing a pie plate of it from a durable platform is awesome. Ignoring cover is certainly a huge bonus, but IA Riptides are relatively marker-independent. You also have the distinct benefit of being able to ambush targets immediately after a Deep Strike when they're tightly clustered for a huge amount of ionic death. On the contrary, Tau are rife with mid-strength, low-AP weapons, so the HBC isn't anything unusual, even with its rending. Plinking a wound off your big guy every 3 turns just trying to use its main gun well is also not terribly appealing.

The Riptide Wing changes all that, though. When you're reliably able to get your nova charge off, the HBC becomes a lot more attractive. 8 shots at S6 plus 5 at S5 for 180+ points is actually plain bad for Tau, but slap on an extra 4 shots and rending, and you're in business. The HBC actually becomes more reliable than the IA, failing 1/9 times vs 1/6 and still actually gets to do something that 1 time instead of being completely inert. The HBC is more effective against lightly-armored targets and vehicles, particularly flyers, and also allows you to just dump wounds on tough individual targets. The IA still possesses the advantages listed above but can either churn out an additional set of secondary weapon shots or steel itself for return fire with that awesome 3++ since it isn't reliant on successfully nova charging to shoot "normally."

Most tournament lists seem conflicted on the issue, opting for a mix of the two weapons within the WIng, and that is probably the ideal way to go. It's more of an all-comers approach, for sure, since both weapons have lists they're are considerably better aginst. That said, I can't escape the appeal of firing 8 SMS shots out of my IA tides every turn, and 4 extra s5 cover- and LoS-ignoring shots seems like a reasonable trade for 4 more S6 shots and rending. That also keeps you a little more independent of marker lights. However, with Drone Networks giving us lots of marker light units to tend to your Riptides, that's less of an issue these days. You can also get spendy to run 3 HBC Tides in a unit to take advantage of Fire Team, freeing up your markers for ignoring cover or boosting other units.

I personally tend to favor the IA variety, overall. I'm either using 3 individual IA Tides or a unit of 3 HBC and 2 individuals IAs. How about you guys?

I always take one Riptide with EWO and the Ion Accelerator because if someone happens to still run a Skyhammer, or any other flavor of deep-strike threat, etc... its very, very appealing to be able to put a template over the entire thing. In an age where Ynnari can no-scatter a wall of D-str templates next to you, this is even more important than ever.

BUT, for general use, I think the HBC just maths out better thanks to volume of fire, and rending w/charge.

Here are my two guiding principles and why I tend to like Ion Accelerators more:

(Note: Lots of people run a Riptide wing with Eldar so we'll assume no Marker Lights are available for the below)

1. If you nova charge the HBC on 3 Riptides you're making 36 shots. 6 of the first 12 hit (BS3) and then 16 of the next 24 hit if you shoot at the same target (formation bonus to BS4). That's 30 hits total. When rolling To Wound/Pen, that's 5 Rending hits, 5 flubs and 20 regular hits.

So you basically used your Nova charge for 5 Rending hits on a unit. Not super exciting. By contrast, without using your Nova charge you can drop 3 AP2 Large Blasts or take 9 AP2 shots, that should work out to about even to the 5 Rending hits plus points for versatility.

2. If you take the HBC, it's basically only useful if you Nova charge it. There are a lot of times you might want that 3++ or to Ripple Fire your secondary gun, but you'll access to your improved HBC for taking that opportunity though.

Plus, remember Hail Fire. If you Ripple Fire your SMS and declare a Hail Fire, each SMS fires 4 times. That's a whopping amount of punishment that an Ion Accelerator can happily join in while a HBC just kind of duds.

Anyway, I'd say the Ion's are better for a TAC list. You really just want the HBC if you're trying to gun down Imperial Knights/Tanks or overload Daemon invulnerable saves.

Can I just add that I LOVE this debate, because it always feels like what I wish 40k was across the board. IA vs. HBC are two options, both of which have genuine uses, both of which are competitive. Unlike 95% of modern 40k, there aren't objectively "right" answers here. :-)

By contrast, without using your Nova charge you can drop 3 AP2 Large Blasts or take 9 AP2 shots, that should work out to about even to the 5 Rending hits plus points for versatility.

Yep, I agree with that. If you're just plonking a Riptide Wing in your otherwise non-Tau list, the IA is the better choice, particularly if you're running Eldar where the appeal of additional massed S6 fire is virtually zero. You'd be much better off with 7 more scatterbikes than a Riptide, most likely. Interesting redox of the HBC rending vs the IA. Things change a little when you mix in marker lights, but when trying to simplay drown something in wounds, your point is good to remember.

If you Ripple Fire your SMS and declare a Hail Fire, each SMS fires 4 times. That's a whopping amount of punishment that an Ion Accelerator can happily join in while a HBC just kind of duds.

True, but like I said, you're sort of trading the SMS shots straight up for the extra HBC shots. It's roughly an even trade, in my opinion.

So speaking of secondary weapons, does anyone ever use anything other than the SMS? I really like being able to intercept things I can see and keep my Riptides kiting around the board. The SMS also complements the HBC pretty well since they're effective at similar purposes. I've used fusion a few times with mediocre results since it's often out of range. I've actually never used plasma, but I can see the appeal of rattling off 8 plasma rounds ripple ripple/hailfire at something getting danger close. I feel weird mixing SMS with IA -cross purposes and all - but the SMS is such a great weapon that it's hard to ignore. I also find myself intercepting with it fairly often, so the lack of synergy with the IA is minimized. Maybe I'll give plasma a shot sometime.

MilkmanAl wrote:


So speaking of secondary weapons, does anyone ever use anything other than the SMS? I really like being able to intercept things I can see and keep my Riptides kiting around the board. The SMS also complements the HBC pretty well since they're effective at similar purposes. I've used fusion a few times with mediocre results since it's often out of range. I've actually never used plasma, but I can see the appeal of rattling off 8 plasma rounds ripple ripple/hailfire at something getting danger close. I feel weird mixing SMS with IA -cross purposes and all - but the SMS is such a great weapon that it's hard to ignore. I also find myself intercepting with it fairly often, so the lack of synergy with the IA is minimized. Maybe I'll give plasma a shot sometime.

On occasion i've taken the Fusion as my secondary weapon with some success. The thing is, with Tides only being MCs and not GMCs, there's actually surprisingly little over-lap of targets that you would optimally fire the IA against and SMS. On paper, a Fusion shot better marries with the targets you would tend to use IA on, while SMS pairs better with HBC. That's the math though... in reality Riptides are rarely in an optimal range where the Fusion will consistently do work.

My first choice is always a hbc riptide with ecpa and a velocity tracker. I've wrecked so much with that set up.

HBC gives more mid str volume of fire ap4 that tau can take almost anywhere with rending only really coming into it when you also waste ML's on scour since if you're shooting it at 4+ stuff, rending isn't going to matter while if you're shooting it at 3+ or better stuff, then are you really going to spend 2 ML's to get ignores cover for 1-2 rends? Yes, HBC/ECPA/VT can do serious work, but so can EWO broadsides who've got 50% more shots and are twin linked which means their AA performance is similar but they're significantly better against everything else.

The IA however gives you long range AP2 which was unavailable at all outside of the IA or railguns until the Stormsurge came along and the railguns being single shot have never been great when you're looking at 4's or 5's to pen and then another 5+ to explode. Not to mention that while marines are popular, pods will be used and that means the IA can simply wipe and entire unit with a reasonable roll.

On top of those points, the IA can still do work even if forced on the defensive with the nova being used for the shield or jump while the HBC is relegated to being a pair of scatterlasers if it's not nova'ing the gun.

As for the secondary guns, I've used both Fusion and SMS and have seen plasma used effectively against deepstrikers and would have to say that I agree with others have said in that while fusion looks great on paper, it doesn't work so well in practice with it often being out of range. If you're up against podded dreads that are intent on popping your ML sources however, that intercepting fusion can be a lifesaver, but unless you're running mass plasma EWO units, I've found that 2 shots is an easily shrugged off nuisance while SMS can often be in range to really twist the knife after the IA has had its go.

I find myself comparing HBC Riptides to Broadsides often, and while Broadsides clearly have far superior firepower, you also sacrifice a lot of durability and mobility to get that firepower. That might be a worthy sacrifice if you can blow away whatever threatens you before the Broadsides get picked apart. I generally prefer Broadsides for their raw damage output (and virtual marker light independence), but I can see why you'd opt for something you could count on being around for most of the game.

Marker dependence is something that bothers me a lot, and I find myself mostly including marker sources to make sure I can blast all 4 D missiles off my Stormsurge at BS, ignores cover during the first 2 turns, if not the first turn, with high reliability. Any buffs I get out of them after that is gravy. After the Surge is satisfied, markers become largely expendable.

Consequently, the IA generally fits far better into my lists since it can essentially be fully functional without marker lights. Ignoring cover and rerolling hotness are both certainly nice, but they're not required for decent damage output.

I think the answer is really simple. If you are taking multiple riptides you mix the ion accelerators and the heavy burst cannons. If you are only taking one riptide (like a decent human being) then you should take the ion accelerator because other things do the same job as the heavy burst cannon.

 lambsandlions wrote:
I think the answer is really simple. If you are taking multiple riptides you mix the ion accelerators and the heavy burst cannons. If you are only taking one riptide (like a decent human being) then you should take the ion accelerator because other things do the same job as the heavy burst cannon.

Unless you put the ECPA on a HBC Riptide. When you have the option of rerolling Nova Charges, the HBC is almost always better.

When you have the option of rerolling Nova Charges, the HBC is almost always better.

Is that the case, though? I think we can all agree that a HBC is typically better for dumping wounds on a single target or a lightly-armored unit, but I feel like there are some solid cases for why the IA is a better routine choice, even with nova rerolls. Also, is the HBC better than the alternative mid-high strength units you could get elsewhere?

In my Riptide wing I run 1 HBC with SMS and 2 IA with Fussion guns.

They all take EWO and usually 2 of them have stims and HBC I keep cheap.

This setup gives each ritpide and effective means of putting damage on any target.

Incidentally... as a side question, is an HBC or an IA, assuming both have Vector Trackers, better at trying to kill Magnus?

It seems crazy to ask, as I never fire IA as a non-template weapon, but it does add to the discussion as some corners of the meta are littered with that gross model right now.

I don't have his rules handy, but is he rocking a pure Demon Save, meaning you want volume of fire, or does he also have a 2+ regular save?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally... as a side question, is an HBC or an IA, assuming both have Vector Trackers, better at trying to kill Magnus?

It seems crazy to ask, as I never fire IA as a non-template weapon, but it does add to the discussion as some corners of the meta are littered with that gross model right now.

I don't have his rules handy, but is he rocking a pure Demon Save, meaning you want volume of fire, or does he also have a 2+ regular save?

Magnus is 4++ stock that goes up to a 3++ if he is the target of a blessing (which he always will be as he can always cast Siphon Magic on himself). Pretty sure a nova charged HBC is the better bet but neither is particularly great for taking him down.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Incidentally... as a side question, is an HBC or an IA, assuming both have Vector Trackers, better at trying to kill Magnus?

It seems crazy to ask, as I never fire IA as a non-template weapon, but it does add to the discussion as some corners of the meta are littered with that gross model right now.

I don't have his rules handy, but is he rocking a pure Demon Save, meaning you want volume of fire, or does he also have a 2+ regular save?

Magnus is 4++ stock that goes up to a 3++ if he is the target of a blessing (which he always will be as he can always cast Siphon Magic on himself). Pretty sure a nova charged HBC is the better bet but neither is particularly great for taking him down.

I hate to ask this... but then, what is? I have access to everything Tau, and Ynnari... and i'm at a loss for how to deal with Magnus at an upcoming event, outside of MAYBE D-shotgunning him with a Stormsurge?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

I hate to ask this... but then, what is? I have access to everything Tau, and Ynnari... and i'm at a loss for how to deal with Magnus at an upcoming event, outside of MAYBE D-shotgunning him with a Stormsurge?

Bringing a shooting GMC against Magnus is a very bed idea. He has a power that can control it for a turn an use it to shooting your own units. The best answer to Magnus is to kill everything else.
Magnus is 1/3 the cost of the opponents army list, which means you can use 100% of your army to kill the other 2/3 of his.
Have a Melee WK near the center of the board and he will not wish to land even to claim objectves. Have plenty of MSU Ynnari and all his powers are useless because they will cause Soulburst actions galore for very little payback for what Magnus kills.
Magnus cannot win games by himself.

-

The answer is C: blastcannon Stormsurge.

By the number, the nova-caharged HBC is better, basically doing 2-3 times the amount of wounds as the IA, but you're still only talking about a wound per Riptide per turn. Exact numbers by weapon, assuming SMS on both and nova charge going to ripple fire on the IA Tide, BS 5, and 3++ on Magnus:

HBC: 12x5/6x1/3x1/3=10/9 wounds
IA: 3x5/6x1/2x1/3=5/18
SMS: 4x35/36x1/6x1/3=35/162

In other words, the HBC nets you about 1.33 Magnus wounds per shooting phase under realistic conditions, while the IA does about 0.71.

Skyray for some skyfire markerlights, coordinated fire from gobs of broadsides with HYMP, or just anything else you can get to shoot him in a hunter contingent.

A culexus assassin.

 pumaman1 wrote:

A culexus assassin.

This is never an answer to Psykers that can move 12", as they can just move out of its range and still operate fine in the Psychic phase

-

 Galef wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

A culexus assassin.

This is never an answer to Psykers that can move 12", as they can just move out of its range and still operate fine in the Psychic phase

-

I've seen it from a number of choas players a whining that its lame a 140 point model totally nullifies their big bad.

 Galef wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

A culexus assassin.

This is never an answer to Psykers that can move 12", as they can just move out of its range and still operate fine in the Psychic phase

-

At least you can prevent Magnus's mind control by parking your Culexus/Sisters of silence next to your Stormsurge and other big dudes. That's really all you're after in that particular match-up.

Coordinated Firepower is definitely the way to take down Magnus, should you choose to do so. Sharing markers is a huge deal for a target that tough.

The Riptide Wing and also the rule about +1 BS when you have three MC's or vehicles in a squad makes the HBC very very potent potentially. Major investment, major reward obviously.

I choose Ion because the ultimate enemy of any tau army is fast melee and unfortunately a whole lot of it has shown up in the game in the form of Deep Strike, Ynarri, and other shenanigans. The ability to blast it off the face of the planet before it does its cool thing is just tough to say no to. A lot of the things that make the Tau awesome are in fact limited to the actual shooting phase, such as for example, the Wall of Mirrors bonus so an HBC against Night Lords deep striking in on you and charging for example can be really hurt by the Ion.

HBC is the overall winner from an offensive standpoint and i feel that the Ion is the better defensive weapon. So the real question to answer is of course... are you going on offense all out... or will you give a nod to defense? I respect my opponent pool way too much not to lean defense.

The best way to nullify Magnus to is take out his warp charge batteries, so go after the easy kills. He needs ~20 dice a turn to really be effective and only provides 5 on his own, so get cracking and once you drop him down to ~10 dice, he's not much of a threat anymore. Basically as was said above, just treat him like a deathstar that you can't lock in combat (ala seer council & Baharroth) and kill everything else.

I am personally a fan of the Ion cannon. If I need volume in fire I will bring Stealth suits or crisis with cyclic ion blasters.

My meta is filled with T4 3+, so I rather use the IA.

I have always fielded the HBC and left the tank hunting to Railguns on tanks.

My two cents,

CB

Captain Brown wrote:
I have always fielded the HBC and left the tank hunting to Railguns on tanks.

My two cents,

CB

I think that an argument about IA vs. HBC is only worth having if we're super min-maxing, and talking the highest levels of optimized play (since both are pretty great over-all, and not dissimilar mathematically). As such, to those players... there wouldn't be a Railgun anywhere on the table.

MilkmanAl wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 pumaman1 wrote:

A culexus assassin.

This is never an answer to Psykers that can move 12", as they can just move out of its range and still operate fine in the Psychic phase

-

At least you can prevent Magnus's mind control by parking your Culexus/Sisters of silence next to your Stormsurge and other big dudes. That's really all you're after in that particular match-up.

Coordinated Firepower is definitely the way to take down Magnus, should you choose to do so. Sharing markers is a huge deal for a target that tough.

I realized that if you put your Culexus 6 inches or more forward from the Stormsurge, at location between Magnus and the Stormsurge, your Stormsurge is now also safe from being StrD-ed out. Since all those witchfires are only 18inch range. So with clever positioning, Magnus will get annoyed hard.

I once also thought that Culexus cannot deal with FMC psykers or Jetbike psykers, I might have been wrong in such a claim provided that those psykers are relying on mostly offensive power with short range. What a Culexus should be worried about is getting shot/chop to death in conventional way, like massed bolter / Scatter Laser to death or been doubled out by S8 long range under Preciense buff.

Hack, if Magnus dare to land, he can reliably kill the Assassin by himself in close combat in one go, by my math he gets to land 2 hits, wound on 2s and the Culexus will fail one of his 4++ and insta gibbed. But then, do Tau lack of technics in dealing with a T7 MC on ground with only a 4++ save?

I don't think anyone has mentioned the 12 Gets Hot chances you take when firing the HBC, which to me is a notable disadvantage, even with a 2+ and FNP.