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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2


I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality

Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.

If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.


because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.

your basic Nob is 17 PPM, and gains 1 wound and 2 armor for that price. (IMHO the Nob could proably stand to get a points reduction to 16 PPM gven the 17 PPM cost of assault intercessors) assuming Boyz are costed approperatly, they'd proably go up to something like 15 or so PPM, nearly doubling their cost. this would dramaticly cut down on the sizes of Ork armies in terms of bodies and it'd make the line between Nobz and boyz a little too small. so yeah I'd rather see Boyz remain at one wound and Nobz made troops. this would give Orks effectively three tiers of troop quality giving them some flexability in list building

You're assuming a single T4 6+ is worth a lot defensively to begin with. Also nobody has ever agreed a Nob would finally be worth it at even 15 points.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2


I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality

Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.

If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.


because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.
It costs 3 for a marine, apparently. Iirc there was a 9th ed repointing with the raising of various costs, and marines went from 12-13 to 15.
There there was the 2W announcement putting marines at 18.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 21:01:52


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 Insectum7 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Spoiler:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
FWIW regarding Ork Boyz I'd be fine with them having W2


I think that'd be a mistake as it's turn orks over night from a hoard army into an elites army. that said I'd be fine with them shifting Nobz to the troops slot (Nobz have 2 wounds yeah?) and thus letting Orks decide if they want quantity or quality

Why couldn't they stay horde though being at W2? T4 6+ is not a tough Stateline to cut through and it would double their resistance to D1 weapons and realt make them tougher to get that charge they need.

If you think about it, it's like cutting their points in half but without the consequence of turning them into Infantry squads.


because a second wound costs a fair bit of points.
It costs 3 for a marine, apparently. Iirc there was a 9th ed repointing with the raising of various costs, and marines went from 12-13 to 15.
There there was the 2W announcement putting marines at 18.

Which would make 2W boyz 11 PPM, assuming that an extra wound is worth as much on a T4 6+ body as a T4 3+ one, which it isn't. Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Which would make 2W boyz 11 PPM, assuming that an extra wound is worth as much on a T4 6+ body as a T4 3+ one, which it isn't. Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.

Aye. When people were clamoring for 2w marines I was saying Orks and Necrons should also have 2w. :/

Back in the day, the "Eliteness" of a Space Marine was that they were as tough as an Ork, with the armor equivalent to the best Aspect Warrior armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's not good enough anymore, apparently.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Insectum7 wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Which would make 2W boyz 11 PPM, assuming that an extra wound is worth as much on a T4 6+ body as a T4 3+ one, which it isn't. Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.

Aye. When people were clamoring for 2w marines I was saying Orks and Necrons should also have 2w. :/

Back in the day, the "Eliteness" of a Space Marine was that they were as tough as an Ork, with the armor equivalent to the best Aspect Warrior armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's not good enough anymore, apparently.

Well keeping everything in their legacy stats just because you dont like change is bad for the overall health for the game. If anything, GW experimenting with these stats is a welcome change.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






Some change good. Some change bad. It doesn't have anything to do with liking or disliking change in general.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Honestly I dont see how you can bring aspects/Eldar into the fore and compete with these 3W gravis troops or just plain space marines in general. October codex is yet to drop but with supplaments on the way and the previewed rules it pretty clear we not seing some sort of gigantic ynnari level nerf...

So what to do about eldar? The design space has been so eroded and cannibalised I dont even know where to begin in order to feel like anything else then Space marines -1..
The cap to hit penalty is gone, the Initiative stat is gone. All the skimmers/hover/trait rules have been given to marines also.

I guess we could push for an ignoring the to hit penalty cap as an army wide rule? But that wouldn't be fair so thats out the window..
I guess re-ollable saves, invulns for aeveryone and 35" 2D shuriken catapults and ob sec to all units? *shrugs*

The best thing thats happened to CWE in terms of a buff in the longest string of nerfs was the Expert crafters rule. And it is basically the old salamander rule so that alone shows you how bad things are.
I certainly don't envy whoever has the job of coming up with rules for the rest of the factions. There ain't that much design room left thats not completely bonkers which wil make marines look pedestrian..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/14 23:04:51


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






^Stat boost to Wraithguard maybe? But that's not very exciting.

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Argive wrote:
Honestly I dont see how you can bring aspects/Eldar into the fore and compete with these 3W gravis troops or just plain space marines in general. October codex is yet to drop but with supplaments on the way and the previewed rules it pretty clear we not seing some sort of gigantic ynnari level nerf...

So what to do about eldar? The design space has been so eroded and cannibalised I dont even know where to begin in order to feel like anything else then Space marines -1..
The cap to hit penalty is gone, the Initiative stat is gone. All the skimmers/hover/trait rules have been given to marines also.

I guess we could push for an ignoring the to hit penalty cap as an army wide rule? But that wouldn't be fair so thats out the window..
I guess re-ollable saves, invulns for aeveryone and 35" 2D shuriken catapults and ob sec to all units? *shrugs*

The best thing thats happened to CWE in terms of a buff in the longest string of nerfs was the Expert crafters rule. And it is basically the old salamander rule so that alone shows you how bad things are.
I certainly don't envy whoever has the job of coming up with rules for the rest of the factions. There ain't that much design room left thats not completely bonkers which wil make marines look pedestrian..

Ynnari shouldn't be a whole army to begin with though. Treating them like Inquisition (so basic HQs to use to throw in Eldar variation armies) and with select Strats and powers would've been lots easier than the OP crap from before and the UP crap now.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Insectum7 wrote:
^Stat boost to Wraithguard maybe? But that's not very exciting.


IMO an argument can be made for wraith-lords and wraith knights to go up to T9 and a 2+ as a starting point. I think wraith-guard are pretty good where they are(bar maybe being a tad too expensive). The d-cythe needs a bump in range as well as damage and the wraith cannon needs to get something better than being just a slightly better metla.

Any hope for banshee to get a special banshee sword is out the window.. Still Ill take str4 as its better than nothing.

I guess fire-dragons could get the eradicator offensive treatment but then they and vast majority of the codex face the problem of being T3 1W model which is guardmen level of chaffness ( no offense IG lovers) paying the tac marine point cost... so kind of need those 2 wounds I guess ? But then Id rather they be made cheap as chips instead than pay premium for the extrta wound without the benefit of extra toughness or save so we back at square one.

I have my fingers crossed for the wraithlord to be somebody.. Honestly I have zero ideas how to represent the "fluff" without being broken in the face of the power creep. Guess broken Eldar coming to a table near you sometime in 2021 then.. lol.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Breton wrote:

If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?


It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.

In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.

In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.

If at first you don't succeed then Sky Diving isn't for you. 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Honestly I dont see how you can bring aspects/Eldar into the fore and compete with these 3W gravis troops or just plain space marines in general. October codex is yet to drop but with supplaments on the way and the previewed rules it pretty clear we not seing some sort of gigantic ynnari level nerf...

So what to do about eldar? The design space has been so eroded and cannibalised I dont even know where to begin in order to feel like anything else then Space marines -1..
The cap to hit penalty is gone, the Initiative stat is gone. All the skimmers/hover/trait rules have been given to marines also.

I guess we could push for an ignoring the to hit penalty cap as an army wide rule? But that wouldn't be fair so thats out the window..
I guess re-ollable saves, invulns for aeveryone and 35" 2D shuriken catapults and ob sec to all units? *shrugs*

The best thing thats happened to CWE in terms of a buff in the longest string of nerfs was the Expert crafters rule. And it is basically the old salamander rule so that alone shows you how bad things are.
I certainly don't envy whoever has the job of coming up with rules for the rest of the factions. There ain't that much design room left thats not completely bonkers which wil make marines look pedestrian..

Ynnari shouldn't be a whole army to begin with though. Treating them like Inquisition (so basic HQs to use to throw in Eldar variation armies) and with select Strats and powers would've been lots easier than the OP crap from before and the UP crap now.


Yeah. I dont see why they just cant be special characters with cool auras/unique psychic.. I don't think they need to be an army?
I will happily absorb their Warlord traits and relics into CWE though Would be nice to have a warlord trait to pick from nd some relics.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Assassin with Black Lotus Poison





Bristol

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.


They may be able to survive, but they cannot fight until their head gets reattached. Casualties in the game do not always represent dead, else the Space Marines would have been attritioned into non-existence.

The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.

Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
Breton wrote:

If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?


It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.

In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.

In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.





Not sure why you'd use shoota boyz and no rokkits (which are conveniently D3) or why you leave home without a PK/big choppa.

Or why you don't point out that HI are objectively no better than Intercessors at killing boyz.

With some luck (deathskulls) that unit could kill 1 to 4 HI.

   
Made in us
Ancient Ultramarine Venerable Dreadnought






 Argive wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Stat boost to Wraithguard maybe? But that's not very exciting.


IMO an argument can be made for wraith-lords and wraith knights to go up to T9 and a 2+ as a starting point. I think wraith-guard are pretty good where they are(bar maybe being a tad too expensive). The d-cythe needs a bump in range as well as damage and the wraith cannon needs to get something better than being just a slightly better metla.

Any hope for banshee to get a special banshee sword is out the window.. Still Ill take str4 as its better than nothing.

I guess fire-dragons could get the eradicator offensive treatment but then they and vast majority of the codex face the problem of being T3 1W model which is guardmen level of chaffness ( no offense IG lovers) paying the tac marine point cost... so kind of need those 2 wounds I guess ? But then Id rather they be made cheap as chips instead than pay premium for the extrta wound without the benefit of extra toughness or save so we back at square one.

I have my fingers crossed for the wraithlord to be somebody.. Honestly I have zero ideas how to represent the "fluff" without being broken in the face of the power creep. Guess broken Eldar coming to a table near you sometime in 2021 then.. lol.

I've been thinking a lot about the difference in size between a Redemptor Dreadnought and a Wraithlord recently. There's something about the comparison that highlights for me just how gaudy I think the Primaris designs are, and seems to exemplify my thoughts on their direction. "Make-it-biggerer-and-more-awesomer-cuz-mawrine-bwaaaaar"

And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord





In My Lab

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
Breton wrote:

If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?


It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.

In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.

In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.





Not sure why you'd use shoota boyz and no rokkits (which are conveniently D3) or why you leave home without a PK/big choppa.

Or why you don't point out that HI are objectively no better than Intercessors at killing boyz.

With some luck (deathskulls) that unit could kill 1 to 4 HI.
It takes...

5+ DDD to-hit is a 2.57 multiplier
3+ to-wound is a 1.5 mutlpier
5+ save is another 1.5 multiplier
Just shy of 6 Rokkits to kill a single Heavy Intercessor, with no FNP, cover, or penalties to-hit.

A PK or Big Choppa does add a lot of melee punch, though.

Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! 
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch






 Insectum7 wrote:
 Argive wrote:
Spoiler:
 Insectum7 wrote:
^Stat boost to Wraithguard maybe? But that's not very exciting.


IMO an argument can be made for wraith-lords and wraith knights to go up to T9 and a 2+ as a starting point. I think wraith-guard are pretty good where they are(bar maybe being a tad too expensive). The d-cythe needs a bump in range as well as damage and the wraith cannon needs to get something better than being just a slightly better metla.

Any hope for banshee to get a special banshee sword is out the window.. Still Ill take str4 as its better than nothing.

I guess fire-dragons could get the eradicator offensive treatment but then they and vast majority of the codex face the problem of being T3 1W model which is guardmen level of chaffness ( no offense IG lovers) paying the tac marine point cost... so kind of need those 2 wounds I guess ? But then Id rather they be made cheap as chips instead than pay premium for the extrta wound without the benefit of extra toughness or save so we back at square one.

I have my fingers crossed for the wraithlord to be somebody.. Honestly I have zero ideas how to represent the "fluff" without being broken in the face of the power creep. Guess broken Eldar coming to a table near you sometime in 2021 then.. lol.

I've been thinking a lot about the difference in size between a Redemptor Dreadnought and a Wraithlord recently. There's something about the comparison that highlights for me just how gaudy I think the Primaris designs are, and seems to exemplify my thoughts on their direction. "Make-it-biggerer-and-more-awesomer-cuz-mawrine-bwaaaaar"


Getting potentially one shotted by a single melta post SM update currently is a sad state of affairs..
And carnifexes..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 00:50:47


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/772746.page#10378083 - My progress/failblog painting blog thingy

Eldar- 4436 pts


AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
Made in us
Mutated Chosen Chaos Marine




The dark hollows of Kentucky

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.


They may be able to survive, but they cannot fight until their head gets reattached. Casualties in the game do not always represent dead, else the Space Marines would have been attritioned into non-existence.

Yes, and? It proves that Orks are tough, tougher than space marines, who couldn't survive that. Orks are also known to continue fighting after losing limbs, just like marines. If loyalists and Admech can have 3W, T5, 3+ troops what's the problem with boyz being 2W, T4, 6+ or 1W, T5, 6+? Gw is changing stats on units to make things better in the new rules, that could be the route they take for Orks. If they do I don't see a problem as long as they're priced appropriately.
   
Made in au
Smokin' Skorcha Driver





Although a space marine also has a medical suite build into his power armor. This is just one of those cases of fluff doesn't always translate to rules.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Daedalus81 wrote:
Spoiler:
SemperMortis wrote:
Breton wrote:

If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?


It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.

In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.

In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.




Because that was the comparison made, 35 Ork boyz vs 10 HIs. If you want to equip the rocket and the Nob with a PK you have to subtract some of those boyz. But just fun, the Rokkit takes 3 turns to reliably hit 1 time, it wounds on a 3+ so it takes 1.33 hits to equal 1 wound and they still get a 5+ save so it takes 1.33 wounds to guarantee one goes through, So statistically you are unlikely to get 1 kill with a single rokkit Launcha in a game. Also, its highly unlikely that those 36' (Minimum) range intercessors won't be in cover, so really its 1.5 to wound, or a -1 to hit or possibly both Not to mention the HI's can actually out distance the Rokkit Launcha.

But assuming they don't have cover of any kind and somehow the rokkit is in range and the mob didn't advance. Its .388 chance to hit, .259 chance to wound and .172 chance to do damage. So its going to take 5.81 Rokkits to guarantee 1 dead HI per turn. ATM that would be equivalent to about 104pts of Orkz shooting at 28pts of HI to get 1 kill. Also, you can only have 3 Rokkit'z per mob, and only if the mob is a full 30 boyz. So to even get this you would need either tankbusta's who would be better off shooting vehicles, or you need 540pts of ork boyz, with the majority shooting other targets...or possibly out of range (18' shootas).

As far as PK nob, the best build atm is double killsaw, which gives the nob 4 attacks base (5 if in a 20+ mob) hitting on 4s wounding on 2s with a flat 2 dmg. Assuming he is in a 20+ mob, he takes the place of almost 3 boyz by himself, and does 5 attacks hitting on 4s so 2.5 hits, wounding on 2s = 2.08 wounds which averages 4.16 wounds or 1 dead and 1 wounded HI. But in order to even use that you have to be in CC which is going to be a daunting prospect because again...36' minimum range for HIs. They can comfortably sit back from the front lines and dakka to their hearts content.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 04:23:14


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I think you're living the mathhammer world too deep. Something I'm guilty of from time to time.

Sometimes you roll hot. Sometimes you do not. Taking advantage of breakpoints will net you potentially bigger gains. Deathskulls is a particularly popular avenue to take further advantage. The only wet blanket is hit rolls - break through that barrier and then 66% and 66% to kill isn't so terrible.

A rokkit will never do 1.3567 damage. It will do 3 or it will do 0. Understanding your odds is separate from understanding the outcome of advantageous rolls.

I'm not advocating running boyz at them. One should rather use Smasha guns on Gravis - 1.2 hits on average, wounding as if S10, clearing all armor with a 50/50 to kill (and a follow up with chip damage when you miss the 50/50).

And HI are still not better than Intercessors at killing. You're buying durability. If they're at 36" then they can be safely ignored, because they'll never contest an objective. There are bigger fish to fry.



   
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 Gadzilla666 wrote:


Yes, and? It proves that Orks are tough, tougher than space marines, who couldn't survive that. Orks are also known to continue fighting after losing limbs, just like marines. If loyalists and Admech can have 3W, T5, 3+ troops what's the problem with boyz being 2W, T4, 6+ or 1W, T5, 6+? Gw is changing stats on units to make things better in the new rules, that could be the route they take for Orks. If they do I don't see a problem as long as they're priced appropriately.


I'd like to see more types of Boys troops. They should add some sturdier boys to troops, They should add some weird but not weirdboys to troops. They should add a grot warboss, maybe even a grot weird boy etc. for the all grot list. I'd like to see some restrictions on mixing and matching too many types of boys. Heavy Intercessors don't get to bring along a bunch of cheap guardsmen, I'm not sure Nobby Choppa Boys should be able to drag along Grots and such.

I think Obsec should be on almost every infantry, possibly/probably even the bikers. I'm not sure why Elite Boys, Terminators Aspects, etc forget What they learned as a basic boy/marine/guardian etc. I'm really not sure why the very Synapse creatures bestowing the Hive Mind on the troops units don't know how to secure an objective.

I think Knight lists need pared down IG/Mechanicus infantry options for some troops and a secondary HQ, and then Knights should be toned down in price and then be HQ, Elite, FA, and HS choices so your generic knight list would be a BigBad Knight HQ, a less capable Regimental Officer type HQ, 3-6 Guardsman/Vanguard quality with potentially fewer upgrades/abilities infantry squads, and 3-5 more knight units depending on Armiger vs Big Boy with all knights being cheaper and less potent.

I think Bigger Orks vs Horde Orks would be a decent Clan fluff to get rules. Goffs are supposedly the biggest, so a Goff trait that favored the "Nobby Boys", and made Grots less attractive would be a starting point. Evil Suns are already painting buggies and bikes red, Snakebites or Blood Axes getting a boost to the smaller boys wouldn't stretch too far. Assuming Gretchen get a rework to get both better and more believable i.e. a longer range gun (autoguns?) they shoot from the fringes instead of a pistol and getting frog marched to the front lines would help them fit in with Blood Axes with something as close to a sniper as an ork can get or with Bad Moons or Deathskulls. The <Subfaction> trait should be where GW strongly encourages fluffy armies by rewarding matching units and (usually) indirectly punishing deviation.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 05:31:45


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Nobs should be about half the points of an intercessor when equipped with a slugga and choppa. Boys should be about 33% the cost.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:
I think you're living the mathhammer world too deep. Something I'm guilty of from time to time.

Sometimes you roll hot. Sometimes you do not. Taking advantage of breakpoints will net you potentially bigger gains. Deathskulls is a particularly popular avenue to take further advantage. The only wet blanket is hit rolls - break through that barrier and then 66% and 66% to kill isn't so terrible.

A rokkit will never do 1.3567 damage. It will do 3 or it will do 0. Understanding your odds is separate from understanding the outcome of advantageous rolls.

I'm not advocating running boyz at them. One should rather use Smasha guns on Gravis - 1.2 hits on average, wounding as if S10, clearing all armor with a 50/50 to kill (and a follow up with chip damage when you miss the 50/50).

And HI are still not better than Intercessors at killing. You're buying durability. If they're at 36" then they can be safely ignored, because they'll never contest an objective. There are bigger fish to fry.


A rokkit will never do 1.3567 damage. It will do 3 or it will do 0. Understanding your odds is separate from understanding the outcome of advantageous rolls.


correct, a Boy w/Rokkit will never do 1.35dmg, A better way to put it is a Boy w/Rokkit ON AVERAGE has a 17.2% to inflict 3dmg a turn. So in all likelihood, it will not inflict ANY dmg during a game, especially since its unlikely to survive past turn 3. The point of the math is to show averages over several rounds or even games of shooting. Like you said, you can roll hot for a few turns but you are likely to have this averaged out down the line by rolling cold.

Compare this to a Space Marine, would a SM player take a Missile Launcher if it only had a 17.2% chance to actually do anything a turn?

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SemperMortis wrote:


Compare this to a Space Marine, would a SM player take a Missile Launcher if it only had a 17.2% chance to actually do anything a turn?


No, but I make take 15 of them that only cost me a 17.2% chance to actually do nothing else a turn.

Space Marines routinely take a Missle Launcher with a 33% chance to do nothing a turn.

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SemperMortis wrote:
Breton wrote:

If they are 14 (7+7)PL 28 PPM(14 PL x 20points per PL/10 models) they're 280 points for 30 T5 Wounds and 10-20ish slightly better shots (assuming Heavy Bolt Rifle, no Heavy options just the base) (and 21-31 close combat)
A LRC is slightly more PL, barely more points, for 16 T8 2+ W. and 36 shots.
280 points of intercessors gets you 28 T4 3+ wounds and 14-28 slightly worse shots.
Not Quite 280 points of Mini Calgar Aggressors gets you 18 T5 W and 36 + shots.
280 points of Boyz gets you about 35 T4 6+ wounds, 35-70 + shots, and 105+ Close Combat attacks.
280 points of Terminators (this Month) gets you 14-16 (280 falls kind of in the middle of One Terminator added/subtracted) T4 2+/5++ wounds, and 42 shots.
Where exactly is the absurd part?


It takes 27 HITS at S4 to kill 1 Heavy Intercessor on average. It takes 2.32ish hits to kill 1 Boy. Another way to put it, it takes about 35 boyz armed with Shootas, all within 18' of 1 Heavy intercessor to kill him. So 280pts of Orkz to kill 28pts of HI. In CC Those 35 Shoota boyz are dealing (Assuming illegal squad size of 35) 105 CC attacks for 23 wounds which inflicts almost 8 dmg, or 2 dead Intercessors. So 280pts of Orkz in their amazing assault phase are able to kill 56pts of HI, almost 82.

In response those 10 HI's are dealing 20 shots (Assuming bolter discipline) for 14ish hits and 10ish dead orkz (No saves allowed) for 80pts worth of dead Orkz. Ohh, did I mention at 36' range...or double that of the boyz? And in CC those 10 Intercessors are getting 20 attacks for 14ish hits and 7ish wounds for 6 dead boyz or 48pts of dead Orkz.

In a pure shooting battle those HI's win every single time, and since they have twice the range of boyz with stronger guns and more AP...im going to assume they will be shooting a lot more then charging into CC. And if they do get into CC, a full strength squad of 30 boyz is only able to kill 2 on average. In fact, add in the Pistols from the HI's and that 30 Boy mob is likely to LOSE in CC against HIs.

Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.

Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
 A Town Called Malus wrote:
 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Orks can survive after their heads are cut off, they should have 2W, or be T5, or something.


They may be able to survive, but they cannot fight until their head gets reattached. Casualties in the game do not always represent dead, else the Space Marines would have been attritioned into non-existence.

Yes, and? It proves that Orks are tough, tougher than space marines, who couldn't survive that. Orks are also known to continue fighting after losing limbs, just like marines. If loyalists and Admech can have 3W, T5, 3+ troops what's the problem with boyz being 2W, T4, 6+ or 1W, T5, 6+? Gw is changing stats on units to make things better in the new rules, that could be the route they take for Orks. If they do I don't see a problem as long as they're priced appropriately.
It's not problem - bring them up to elite level and make nobs as tough as custodians. Just point properly.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 14:18:38


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Yeah, troopless Squigbuggy spam with a stompa seems much better than running some shoota boys in trukks backed up with mek guns and burnabommas

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 Xenomancers wrote:
Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.

Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Enjoy the read
https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-report-labor-day-gt/

119 Ork boys in the list
   
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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Yeah, troopless Squigbuggy spam with a stompa seems much better than running some shoota boys in trukks backed up with mek guns and burnabommas

Max smasha and squiggy!

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In My Lab

a_typical_hero wrote:
 Xenomancers wrote:
Comes down to using the right gun for the right job. Bolters are not good at killing 1 wound space marines ether. Point flat 3 damage weapons at the gravis and you get huge points return.

Boys are overcosted RN. No question about it. If I played orks I wouldn't even run troops atm. Good thing is - you don't have to.
Enjoy the read
https://www.goonhammer.com/tournament-report-labor-day-gt/

119 Ork boys in the list
To be fair, that's a very specific type of list.

It's not "Boyz are good in general," it's "Boyz are good when spammed with Ghaz."

I wouldn't say Boyz are trash or anything-but they're a unit that requires you to invest in them, unlike a lot of Space Marine units.

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