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So, we all know the drawbacks of most of the proposed fixes to IGOUGO.

Instead, we keep IGOUGO, but casualties/damage are only registered at the end of the total battle round.

Can anyone think of drawbacks? I can't think of anything too abusive that could be done with this.

i.e. Player A does all his stuff, alpha strikes as normal. However instead of Player B being crippled for the rest of the game, his models get to act at full capacity, then after he has his turn all morale and damage is applied to both players.

To be clear, you roll to wound and save as normal, and track who has died to be removed/apply damage at the end of the battle round.

While this means you have to keep track of who died until the end of turn, I don't feel this is too overwhelming, it fixes IGOUGO and doesn't require and re-working of the rules/stats to account for Interleaved turns, and doesn't benefit MSU like alternating turns does.

It would also be a nice boost to Melee, since models will get more attacks overall since they aren't dying between combats.

I proposed the same thing not too long ago in the thread below, it was not well-recieved as it has some issues.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/747917.page

I was thinking of this recently after a mega battle with a friend. We likened it to Axis & Allies. Only issue is close combat. Models slain in close combat shouldn't be allowed to stay on the board. I have a hard time seeing how you can charge in with a unit that likely died in the shooting phase. Yeah, it's another buff for shooting over close combat, but being hacked to death by a ghost is annoying.

Mostly it's time and book keeping. At the scale that 40k is at moving an entire army +chits and dice to keep track of who and what died. going through 2 rounds of the fight phase and all that.... In later rounds keeping track of how much damage a larger model has taken vs how much it will take when the round is over.

It's a lot.

 Yarium wrote:
I was thinking of this recently after a mega battle with a friend. We likened it to Axis & Allies. Only issue is close combat. Models slain in close combat shouldn't be allowed to stay on the board. I have a hard time seeing how you can charge in with a unit that likely died in the shooting phase. Yeah, it's another buff for shooting over close combat, but being hacked to death by a ghost is annoying.

It's all taking place in a swirling maelstrom.

Melee is already super weak (Outside of two, maybe three units in the whole game) as it is.

I would have thought it's a nerf for close combat: a CC army tries to clear out some bubble wrap units so they can actually do some damage to important things but now the unit they tried to shoot to get out of the way is still there. Then the CC unit charges in a murders the bubblewrap unit a second time only to find that the unit they were attacking gets to fight back, and finally in your opponants turn the bubblewrap unit can leave combat and the CC unit will get bombed by the firing line.

Right now CC units have to weather a round of shooting, overwatch and, if they don't get to the big guns that turn, they have to go through all of that again. you want to put them through another 2 rounds of combat to lose damage to dispite the unit damaging them being dead^3?

 mrhappyface wrote:
I would have thought it's a nerf for close combat: a CC army tries to clear out some bubble wrap units so they can actually do some damage to important things but now the unit they tried to shoot to get out of the way is still there. Then the CC unit charges in a murders the bubblewrap unit a second time only to find that the unit they were attacking gets to fight back, and finally in your opponants turn the bubblewrap unit can leave combat and the CC unit will get bombed by the firing line.

Right now CC units have to weather a round of shooting, overwatch and, if they don't get to the big guns that turn, they have to go through all of that again. you want to put them through another 2 rounds of combat to lose damage to dispite the unit damaging them being dead^3?

Fair enough.

How about then:
Turn order goes ABBABBA etc

Player A moves units. Player B moves units.
Player A shoots. Player B shoots. Casualties/Damage are inflicted after all shooting is done.
Player A does Charges. Player B does Charges. Casualties/Damage are inflicted after all overwatch is done.
Player A does Combat (Includes return attacks from Player B). Player B does Combat (Includes return attacks from Player A). Casualties/Damage are inflicted after all attacks are done. Perhaps remove casualties in-between as well since the ABBA turn order stops one player always being first?

That way Player A doesn't have an advantage in always being able to move first, and you can clear out screening units with shooting before combat.

That's a better system and it might just work as a replacement for the current one. The only problem I could see with it now is fast-shooting armies becoming king since they'll always be able to dash out of charging range before the charging phase comes. Maybe that will be harder to do in practice, I don't know.

It sounds good to me at first glance but I think it would require a major balancing to make sure fast armies just don't kite slow ones.

I'm not sure how a CQC army would ever catch a mobile army that didn't want to be charged because they could just move away from the CQC army in the move phase and unless that CQC unit was really fast they'd never catch their target (think terminators trying to get into close combat with anything).

Maybe A moves, then alternate shooting A,B then psychic,chage...then it is B's move, then alternate shooting B,A then psychic, charge?

The problem with most proposed alternating activations, which stretches to this one, is that if you add complexity/bookkeeping to the rules without also removing complexity/bookkeeping you're going to make the game slower, more complex, and more difficult to play.

It doesn't matter what your alternating activation fix is, if you assume you can implement it as a one-paragraph fix it isn't going to work. You need to start hacking away at the phased turn before you're going to get something playable.

Is alternative activation even viable for large scale games like 40k? I thought it's a skirmish thing

 koooaei wrote:
Is alternative activation even viable for large scale games like 40k? I thought it's a skirmish thing

Yes it is. It works fine. You just need 1 chit per unit to put next to it when its been activated. Best version of 40k ive played so far is the beyond the gates of 40k a few posts down. Scales to any size game. Much more tactical game play

I want to try playing a game where every phase goes back and forth between players, each activating one unit at a time.
It's how you set up the table, it's how you fight in CC, so I let's try doing it for the other phases as well.

You roll for initiative for the first round, that player gets to activate a unit first in every phase for that round, the second round starts with the other player going first (or rolling again, or sticking to the order established in turn 1)
You'd need to revisit abilities that work either only during your own or your opponents turns and see if the new system breaks them in any way, but it would make the game much more involving.

Also add a rule for characters that allows them to activate at the same time as another friendly unit in 6" (or so), if said character hasn't been activated yet this turn.


It makes alpha striking less viable (IMHO), since the opponent gets to shoot at whatever landed in front of them or alternatively set up their own alpha strikers at the same time.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
I want to try playing a game where every phase goes back and forth between players, each activating one unit at a time.
It's how you set up the table, it's how you fight in CC, so I let's try doing it for the other phases as well.

You roll for initiative for the first round, that player gets to activate a unit first in every phase for that round, the second round starts with the other player going first (or rolling again, or sticking to the order established in turn 1)
You'd need to revisit abilities that work either only during your own or your opponents turns and see if the new system breaks them in any way, but it would make the game much more involving.

Also add a rule for characters that allows them to activate at the same time as another friendly unit in 6" (or so), if said character hasn't been activated yet this turn.


It makes alpha striking less viable (IMHO), since the opponent gets to shoot at whatever landed in front of them or alternatively set up their own alpha strikers at the same time.

Same problem as alternating phases. You deepstrike a unit, I move my unit back so you have to make a 12" charge to reach me. I shoot your melee unit, you try to charge, in all likelyhood fail, and I get to shoot you again.

Mid/long range shooting gets massively buffed, short ranged/melee get massively nerfed.

You cannot alternate movement without actions without allowing positioning to favor the second player dramatically.

I'm in favor of the Assault phase being simultaneous - that is to say, so long as two units are in melee, everyone's rolling to attack and hit, save, etc. Melee should be pretty decisive.

koooaei wrote:Is alternative activation even viable for large scale games like 40k? I thought it's a skirmish thing

I'd argue that it would have one great advantage for "larger scale" games like 40k - individual downtime.

If my turn takes me ~20 minutes to complete, that's 20 minutes of you doing very little.

If we break this down unit by unit, you're only "down" for the time it takes me to move my one activation - play is then back to you.

(Watching some of the locals I've seen some people spend their opponent's turn mostly messing around with their phones, only really paying attention to get their rolls in. That's weird.)

 Lance845 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Is alternative activation even viable for large scale games like 40k? I thought it's a skirmish thing

Yes it is. It works fine. You just need 1 chit per unit to put next to it when its been activated. Best version of 40k ive played so far is the beyond the gates of 40k a few posts down. Scales to any size game. Much more tactical game play

The key phrases here are "1 chit" and "activated". Alternating activation on the scale of 40k is a thing that exists in Bolt Action, Gates of Antares, and the aforementioned conversion of 40k to the Gates of Antares mechanics, but in all of those cases a unit's "activation" is compressed down to a thing or a couple of things they do once rather than four separate phases in which they may or may not do things all interspersed with other units.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Is alternative activation even viable for large scale games like 40k? I thought it's a skirmish thing

Yes it is. It works fine. You just need 1 chit per unit to put next to it when its been activated. Best version of 40k ive played so far is the beyond the gates of 40k a few posts down. Scales to any size game. Much more tactical game play

The key phrases here are "1 chit" and "activated". Alternating activation on the scale of 40k is a thing that exists in Bolt Action, Gates of Antares, and the aforementioned conversion of 40k to the Gates of Antares mechanics, but in all of those cases a unit's "activation" is compressed down to a thing or a couple of things they do once rather than four separate phases in which they may or may not do things all interspersed with other units.

Only semi true. The orders used in BtGo40k mostly follow all the allowances of normal 40ks turn. The exceptions are Reactions (kind of half activations or single actions you do on the opponents activation in response to what they are doing at the cost of that units full activation this turn), and order like "Down" which are more defensive or the result of too many pins.

But when you have a unit act it generally does all the things, move, psychic, shoot, etc etc...

 Lance845 wrote:

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
I want to try playing a game where every phase goes back and forth between players, each activating one unit at a time.
It's how you set up the table, it's how you fight in CC, so I let's try doing it for the other phases as well.

You roll for initiative for the first round, that player gets to activate a unit first in every phase for that round, the second round starts with the other player going first (or rolling again, or sticking to the order established in turn 1)
You'd need to revisit abilities that work either only during your own or your opponents turns and see if the new system breaks them in any way, but it would make the game much more involving.

Also add a rule for characters that allows them to activate at the same time as another friendly unit in 6" (or so), if said character hasn't been activated yet this turn.


It makes alpha striking less viable (IMHO), since the opponent gets to shoot at whatever landed in front of them or alternatively set up their own alpha strikers at the same time.

Same problem as alternating phases. You deepstrike a unit, I move my unit back so you have to make a 12" charge to reach me. I shoot your melee unit, you try to charge, in all likelyhood fail, and I get to shoot you again.

Mid/long range shooting gets massively buffed, short ranged/melee get massively nerfed.

You cannot alternate movement without actions without allowing positioning to favor the second player dramatically.

But in this case, it's always just one unit at a time.
If you do all of your movements before I do, then yes, I can move however I want (can) get away from you without repercussions. But if it's just one unit at a time that does the movement, you can try to trick your opponent into moving a certain way, you can start out with a strong unit to push him a certain way, etc..
Also don't forget that deep striking still happens at the end of the movement phase, so all your opponent can do, is deep strike his own stuff in a way to hinder your assault.

Also also, this way you have to make sure your deep striking unit survives the shooting phase and not just mindlessly drop them at 9" and roll some dice, since all you'll have to face is some overwatch.
Both players have to move their units one at a time, then pick one unit to shoot at a time, decide where to charge first, where to strike first.

HI folks.
The thing is 40k has several core issues with its basic game mechanics that all have to be addressed to properly fix the game play.

Alternating turns/actions works fine IF you address the balance between action types, (overpowered shooting,) and the lack of effective morale options.

Take any great idea that works wonderfully well in a well designed and developed game.
Drop it in 40k and it causes lots of issues with existing 40k rules/game play.

My conclusion is 40k rules by GW are still a hot mess, and need to be completely re written to arrive at a clearly defined rule set, that delivers the expected game play in an elegant and efficient way.

Fix all the core issues with the basic rules and you are on a winner.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
I want to try playing a game where every phase goes back and forth between players, each activating one unit at a time.
It's how you set up the table, it's how you fight in CC, so I let's try doing it for the other phases as well.

You roll for initiative for the first round, that player gets to activate a unit first in every phase for that round, the second round starts with the other player going first (or rolling again, or sticking to the order established in turn 1)
You'd need to revisit abilities that work either only during your own or your opponents turns and see if the new system breaks them in any way, but it would make the game much more involving.

Also add a rule for characters that allows them to activate at the same time as another friendly unit in 6" (or so), if said character hasn't been activated yet this turn.


It makes alpha striking less viable (IMHO), since the opponent gets to shoot at whatever landed in front of them or alternatively set up their own alpha strikers at the same time.

Same problem as alternating phases. You deepstrike a unit, I move my unit back so you have to make a 12" charge to reach me. I shoot your melee unit, you try to charge, in all likelyhood fail, and I get to shoot you again.

Mid/long range shooting gets massively buffed, short ranged/melee get massively nerfed.

You cannot alternate movement without actions without allowing positioning to favor the second player dramatically.

But in this case, it's always just one unit at a time.
If you do all of your movements before I do, then yes, I can move however I want (can) get away from you without repercussions. But if it's just one unit at a time that does the movement, you can try to trick your opponent into moving a certain way, you can start out with a strong unit to push him a certain way, etc..
Also don't forget that deep striking still happens at the end of the movement phase, so all your opponent can do, is deep strike his own stuff in a way to hinder your assault.

Also also, this way you have to make sure your deep striking unit survives the shooting phase and not just mindlessly drop them at 9" and roll some dice, since all you'll have to face is some overwatch.
Both players have to move their units one at a time, then pick one unit to shoot at a time, decide where to charge first, where to strike first.

I get what your saying, it still doesn't fix anything.

Look, if an opponent places a blob of 30 buffed ork boys in a position where you know it's going to charge you, how are you going to spend your shooting phase?

If an opponent places a unit of Khorne Berzerkers in a position where you know it's going to charge you, how are you going to spend your shooting phase?

Genestealers?

Hormagaunts?

You have to reveal your hand and then make it through the enemies entire shooting phase before a pure melee unit has any chance to actually do anything. Why would you ever let them? In order for melee to do ANYTHING but be a bullet sponge in your proposed set up that melee unit has to be so durable it can withstand the shooting phase of the entire enemies turn to such an extent that it doesn't just survive but comes out the other side with enough bodies to still be a threat.

 Lance845 wrote:

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:
I want to try playing a game where every phase goes back and forth between players, each activating one unit at a time.
It's how you set up the table, it's how you fight in CC, so I let's try doing it for the other phases as well.

You roll for initiative for the first round, that player gets to activate a unit first in every phase for that round, the second round starts with the other player going first (or rolling again, or sticking to the order established in turn 1)
You'd need to revisit abilities that work either only during your own or your opponents turns and see if the new system breaks them in any way, but it would make the game much more involving.

Also add a rule for characters that allows them to activate at the same time as another friendly unit in 6" (or so), if said character hasn't been activated yet this turn.


It makes alpha striking less viable (IMHO), since the opponent gets to shoot at whatever landed in front of them or alternatively set up their own alpha strikers at the same time.

Same problem as alternating phases. You deepstrike a unit, I move my unit back so you have to make a 12" charge to reach me. I shoot your melee unit, you try to charge, in all likelyhood fail, and I get to shoot you again.

Mid/long range shooting gets massively buffed, short ranged/melee get massively nerfed.

You cannot alternate movement without actions without allowing positioning to favor the second player dramatically.

But in this case, it's always just one unit at a time.
If you do all of your movements before I do, then yes, I can move however I want (can) get away from you without repercussions. But if it's just one unit at a time that does the movement, you can try to trick your opponent into moving a certain way, you can start out with a strong unit to push him a certain way, etc..
Also don't forget that deep striking still happens at the end of the movement phase, so all your opponent can do, is deep strike his own stuff in a way to hinder your assault.

Also also, this way you have to make sure your deep striking unit survives the shooting phase and not just mindlessly drop them at 9" and roll some dice, since all you'll have to face is some overwatch.
Both players have to move their units one at a time, then pick one unit to shoot at a time, decide where to charge first, where to strike first.

I get what your saying, it still doesn't fix anything.

Look, if an opponent places a blob of 30 buffed ork boys in a position where you know it's going to charge you, how are you going to spend your shooting phase?

If an opponent places a unit of Khorne Berzerkers in a position where you know it's going to charge you, how are you going to spend your shooting phase?

Genestealers?

Hormagaunts?

You have to reveal your hand and then make it through the enemies entire shooting phase before a pure melee unit has any chance to actually do anything. Why would you ever let them? In order for melee to do ANYTHING but be a bullet sponge in your proposed set up that melee unit has to be so durable it can withstand the shooting phase of the entire enemies turn to such an extent that it doesn't just survive but comes out the other side with enough bodies to still be a threat.

That is indeed a problem. Mmmmaybe add a rule that says deep striking units can only be hit on a 6 on the turn they arrived at, since they surprised the enemy. That way, even if the whole opposing army were to shoot at that unit, it wouldn't take that many hits (overwatch of the whole army once + overwatch of the units it's going to charge later on).

But again, in this new ruleset, if you think you can just drop one unit of CC badasses onto the field and expect it to work, that's not a problem with the proposed rules. I'm not a pro when it comes to composing my army. I would even go as far as to say, I'm pretty bad. But in theory, you will have more than just one unit of CC beatsticks you drop off 9" away from your enemy. So you'll have to make sure your opponent feels sufficiently threatened by whatever else you got on the table. And also use those units to weaken your opponent's units. He unloads his first barrage on your deep striking unit, so you'll shoot one of his heavy hitters next to weaken them before he gets to shoot at you.

But yes, melee is a tough nut, right now you're either getting shot to pieces before you arrive or you can drop down right in front of your enemy turn 1 and decimate them in one round. There is very rarely some decent middle ground.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:

That is indeed a problem. Mmmmaybe add a rule that says deep striking units can only be hit on a 6 on the turn they arrived at, since they surprised the enemy. That way, even if the whole opposing army were to shoot at that unit, it wouldn't take that many hits (overwatch of the whole army once + overwatch of the units it's going to charge later on).

What does that actually do? Forces all melee to deepstrike? So they MIGHT be effective on the turn they arrive IF they make their 9" charge and then accept destruction in the second turn?

But again, in this new ruleset, if you think you can just drop one unit of CC badasses onto the field and expect it to work, that's not a problem with the proposed rules. I'm not a pro when it comes to composing my army. I would even go as far as to say, I'm pretty bad. But in theory, you will have more than just one unit of CC beatsticks you drop off 9" away from your enemy. So you'll have to make sure your opponent feels sufficiently threatened by whatever else you got on the table. And also use those units to weaken your opponent's units. He unloads his first barrage on your deep striking unit, so you'll shoot one of his heavy hitters next to weaken them before he gets to shoot at you.

But yes, melee is a tough nut, right now you're either getting shot to pieces before you arrive or you can drop down right in front of your enemy turn 1 and decimate them in one round. There is very rarely some decent middle ground.

Again, your proposition does one good thing in that it breaks up the downtime in a game. But just like alternating phases it provides a massive power boost to longer ranged armies and severely hurts shorter ranged armies. Tau vs blood angles. Tau vs melee nids. Tau vs orks. In every one of these match ups the Tau WILL win. Because they have the advantage of knowing everything the other player is planning and then gets their far superior shooting phase to act accordingly.

 Lance845 wrote:

What does that actually do? Forces all melee to deepstrike? So they MIGHT be effective on the turn they arrive IF they make their 9" charge and then accept destruction in the second turn?

Again, your proposition does one good thing in that it breaks up the downtime in a game. But just like alternating phases it provides a massive power boost to longer ranged armies and severely hurts shorter ranged armies. Tau vs blood angles. Tau vs melee nids. Tau vs orks. In every one of these match ups the Tau WILL win. Because they have the advantage of knowing everything the other player is planning and then gets their far superior shooting phase to act accordingly.

If melee is arsed either way, then I consider at least cutting the downtime to a minimum to be a huge success.

 BigmekRatsmek wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

What does that actually do? Forces all melee to deepstrike? So they MIGHT be effective on the turn they arrive IF they make their 9" charge and then accept destruction in the second turn?

Again, your proposition does one good thing in that it breaks up the downtime in a game. But just like alternating phases it provides a massive power boost to longer ranged armies and severely hurts shorter ranged armies. Tau vs blood angles. Tau vs melee nids. Tau vs orks. In every one of these match ups the Tau WILL win. Because they have the advantage of knowing everything the other player is planning and then gets their far superior shooting phase to act accordingly.

If melee is arsed either way, then I consider at least cutting the downtime to a minimum to be a huge success.

Melee isn't "arsed" either way. Melee works very well currently. Your system isn't leaving melee alone where it's at, it's digging it a hole and burying it.

Again, why not just use alternating unit activations? Then you remove alpha strikes AND units get to actually do stuff.

How about each player putting a colored token in bag for each unit in their army.

draw from bag, who ever token it is gets to use one unit, move, physic, shoot, combat if charging.
draw again and repeat till all units have gone.
resolve any units in on going combat and morale.
start the next turn, rinse and repeat.

MSU might be an issue. But could be worth a try.

p00rstudent wrote:
How about each player putting a colored token in bag for each unit in their army.

draw from bag, who ever token it is gets to use one unit, move, physic, shoot, combat if charging.
draw again and repeat till all units have gone.
resolve any units in on going combat and morale.
start the next turn, rinse and repeat.

MSU might be an issue. But could be worth a try.

That is LITERALLY bolt action rules, like exactly it.

It works as well the problem is the turns take forever.

Not played bolt action, might have to give it a go now.

I think the upcoming Star Wars Legion is a good example of a 40k style game with workable alternating activations. With a good alternating activations scheme, you need each unit to fully activate before moving on to the next unit. That means moving, shooting, fighting, etc before the next unit activates. To make this happen, you'd have to kill the traditional phases. No more Movement, Psychic, Charge, etc phases.

You'd want something like this...
1. Start of Turn Phase - Starting with the First Player, players take turns activating 'Start of Turn' abilities.
2. Activation Phase - Starting with the First Player, players take turns activating units.
3. End of Turn Phase - Starting with the First Player, players take turns activating 'End of Turn' abilities. After all 'End of Turn' abilities have been activated, First Player status passes to the next player.

Start of Turn abilities might include things like attempting to bring a unit in from reserves. End of Turn abilities should be rare. A unit's activation might involve choosing 2 of the following actions. Actions can only be performed once per activation unless otherwise stated...

1. Move - Move up to the unit's move stat in any direction. Can be performed twice per activation.
2. Shoot - Perform a ranged attack.
3. Fight - Perform a melee attack.
4. Etc...

In this system, a charge would essentially be a Move action followed by a Fight action. A run/advance would be two Move actions in a row. If already in combat, you could perform a Shoot action (Pistols) followed by a Fight action.

This would FUNDAMENTALLY change the game as the order in which you activate your units would become SUPER important. As it stands, it largely doesn't matter what order you do things in.

Again, I think a lot of people in this thread are missing a very important fact. The alternative trun system is being used for games much smaller then Warhammer.

If you do an alternative turn system your going to be adding around 30 min a battle round.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
Again, I think a lot of people in this thread are missing a very important fact. The alternative trun system is being used for games much smaller then Warhammer.

If you do an alternative turn system your going to be adding around 30 min a battle round.

(You're.)

And that doesn't make any sense - it's the same amount of activity, you've just got players trading back and forth. Would you rather sit there for 20 minutes while I do everything at once, or for five minutes while I do one unit?