Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

maybe we'll get lucky and GW will add in the other two assassins: the Venenum and the Vanus

Depending on the iconagraphy and ability to swap/convert weapon loadouts, A box of Grey Knight Termies would work great as Sgts and Termie-HQs in a regular army.

The Venenum and Vanus temple assassins are definitely not models that would be statted for a battlefield, unless they refluff the Venenum as having poison guns and blades or something crazy.

i can hope though

interesting

ph34r wrote:The Venenum and Vanus temple assassins are definitely not models that would be statted for a battlefield, unless they refluff the Venenum as having poison guns and blades or something crazy.

Oh boy, more crazy rules and exceptions to remember...

Are people seriously complaining about unique special rules?

In short- yes.

IMO, special rules, wargear, and other background fluff is what defines your unit on the battlefield.

Very few people would want a model with a GeQ statline, but no gadgets and toys or rules to make them varied and interesting.

"Oh,I have this human with a lasgun, but he doesn't get anything else. I can't effect him in any way."

However, if the vindicare can pick out models again, i'm going to love popping the painboy in those annoying nob bikers...

shrike wrote:In short- yes.

Yeah. Honestly, of all the stupid things people complain about, I think complaining that units have special rules is the stupidest.

ph34r wrote:

shrike wrote:In short- yes.

Yeah. Honestly, of all the stupid things people complain about, I think complaining that units have special rules is the stupidest.

Its not that they have them...its that there are just so many of them. Sure special rules add some flavor and character, but after a point they get to be cumbersome, and that point has been past long ago. A ton of special rules is fine in a small scale skirmish game like Necromunda, but in something the size of 40k they really need to be limited.

What makes it worse is when its a special rule that has the same effect as a simple stat change.

Like what?

Hmmm... I wonder if Sanctuary remains in the codex. It is my favorite psychic power of all time... Your demons want to attack me? SANCTUARY! I can shoot you, but you can't shoot me! Or come close for that matter...

I remember reading somewhere about "Out the Heretic!" or something along those lines, making one opponent squad type become demons? Idk. Anyone know if it was debunked?

Ehsteve wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well he has the Stealth Suit now, but I'm talking more about Assassins in general. As 'Independant Units', as they are now, they stick out like a sore thumb. I find that incongruous with the idea of an 'assassin' (other than the Eversor, of course).

Maybe if they all got Stealth Suits... I dunno. Point is, being a valid target from the word go in every game doesn't seem to fit with the way Assassins are portrayed (again, other than the Eversor, who goes to no effort to hide himself from his foes and, in fact, uses fear as a major weapon... something which isn't represented by the rules incidentally).

Yah, but he is a terror shock trooper. Maybe something that makes them blend into another unit, or make it so you have to take a test to see if your unit notices him. I dont know, but your right, he needs to be stealthy.

Or possibly take a page from Fantasy and have the Eversor attached to a unit which can release him at any time, but is otherwise untouchable until released (let's say that if the unit is destroyed, he is automatically released as those keeping him back are removed), give him a drug allowing him to move 12" in the movement phase to represent him going absolute bat insane so you have an effective assault range of 18" and as an IC can roll 3d6 for difficult terrain.

Your enemies would be crapping themselves trying to figure out which unit is holding the assassin. THAT is fear tactics.

All Assasins have Infiltrate,and as such the Eversor can arrive from Reserves via Outflank,and he can assault 12" due to Combat Drugs,giving him an 18" assault range from the short table edge. I supposse you could give the Eversor Fleet and/or Behind Enemy Lines,but realistically,he does what he's designed to do,which is devastate small,elite units.

Similarly,the Vindicaire is designed to pick off IC's. He can easily make his points in one turn. Maybe you could buff the Stealth Suit some,but he would be ridiculously broken if he regained his IC status and could join units,using a unit of PA GK's as ablative armor as he went about his buisness. Plus,that's not what assasins are suppossed to be about. They are suppossed to operate on their own,not join units of "mundane" troops.

Whatever1 wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:Well he has the Stealth Suit now, but I'm talking more about Assassins in general. As 'Independant Units', as they are now, they stick out like a sore thumb. I find that incongruous with the idea of an 'assassin' (other than the Eversor, of course).

Maybe if they all got Stealth Suits... I dunno. Point is, being a valid target from the word go in every game doesn't seem to fit with the way Assassins are portrayed (again, other than the Eversor, who goes to no effort to hide himself from his foes and, in fact, uses fear as a major weapon... something which isn't represented by the rules incidentally).

Yah, but he is a terror shock trooper. Maybe something that makes them blend into another unit, or make it so you have to take a test to see if your unit notices him. I dont know, but your right, he needs to be stealthy.

Or possibly take a page from Fantasy and have the Eversor attached to a unit which can release him at any time, but is otherwise untouchable until released (let's say that if the unit is destroyed, he is automatically released as those keeping him back are removed), give him a drug allowing him to move 12" in the movement phase to represent him going absolute bat insane so you have an effective assault range of 18" and as an IC can roll 3d6 for difficult terrain.

Your enemies would be crapping themselves trying to figure out which unit is holding the assassin. THAT is fear tactics.

All Assasins have Infiltrate,and as such the Eversor can arrive from Reserves via Outflank,and he can assault 12" due to Combat Drugs,giving him an 18" assault range from the short table edge. I supposse you could give the Eversor Fleet and/or Behind Enemy Lines,but realistically,he does what he's designed to do,which is devastate small,elite units.

Similarly,the Vindicaire is designed to pick off IC's. He can easily make his points in one turn. Maybe you could buff the Stealth Suit some,but he would be ridiculously broken if he regained his IC status and could join units,using a unit of PA GK's as ablative armor as he went about his buisness. Plus,that's not what assasins are suppossed to be about. They are suppossed to operate on their own,not join units of "mundane" troops.

not entirely true, some assassins pose as troops such as guardsmen in order to get closer to their target

Mad4Minis wrote:Its not that they have them...its that there are just so many of them. Sure special rules add some flavor and character, but after a point they get to be cumbersome, and that point has been past long ago. A ton of special rules is fine in a small scale skirmish game like Necromunda, but in something the size of 40k they really need to be limited.

What makes it worse is when its a special rule that has the same effect as a simple stat change.

Yes they are quite cumbersome when I can just ask my opponent if I can read it directly from his codex.

Can't wait for these to come out!!! Any idea of a date???

Whatever1 wrote:All Assasins have Infiltrate,and as such the Eversor can arrive from Reserves via Outflank,and he can assault 12" due to Combat Drugs,giving him an 18" assault range from the short table edge. I supposse you could give the Eversor Fleet and/or Behind Enemy Lines,but realistically,he does what he's designed to do,which is devastate small,elite units.

Similarly,the Vindicaire is designed to pick off IC's. He can easily make his points in one turn. Maybe you could buff the Stealth Suit some,but he would be ridiculously broken if he regained his IC status and could join units,using a unit of PA GK's as ablative armor as he went about his buisness. Plus,that's not what assasins are suppossed to be about. They are suppossed to operate on their own,not join units of "mundane" troops.

Agreed on the joining units, however, if you attempted to stick him in a unit of PAGK you're paying at least 150pts currently so maybe IST would be a better example (seeing as there is no confirmation yet on the rumours of the GK them getting rerolls to saves)

The 'releasing' method I thought would work well is because you must deliver the eversor to his destination, and outflanking is a chancey thing at 33% you'll be on the other side of the board. Another factor which I took into account was that GK get very few units, you're not running anything more than...5 squads in anywhere up to 2,000-2,500pts maximum, most likely 3-4 so the enemy isn't exactly getting swamped on all sides with eversor-holding units (if you can afford any more than 1 after buying all your regular GK units).

Vindicare is a tricky matter, cause it balances on a knife's edge with its rules. In small point games, it's very nice, in larger point games it starts getting out of hand attempting to pick off models on a larger board with more terrain with more potential enemies who can see the assassin and therefore shoot him.

Callidus is by far and large my favorite at my FLGS... I always get asked 'are you bringing that really annoying assassin to this one?', to which I reply with something like: "Maybe... you might see her pop up behind your hq... you might not" (of course they can just see on my list what I have, lol).

She's great, imo: 'a word in your ear' can put either a strong ranged unit out of range, or put bikes in dangerous terrain, or vehicles out in dangerous terrain, then of course you neural shred tons of units and her sword is just gross (ignores all saves, hands down!)... all this, and they can't even attack her because she'll just pop out and assault the turn she arrives!

Granted she dies 90% of the time, on the first assault, but if she can use her 'jump back' ability to fire and charge again... she's a wrecking ball! And terminators?! She'll just wipe the floor with them! Point is, I really really hope they leave her in... she's my favorite assassin (just wish we'd get a different variation of the 2 current models).

Eversor, if only for the time he turned a Carnifex into fine red mist. E-excuse me, I think I have something in my eye...

bhsman wrote:

Mad4Minis wrote:Its not that they have them...its that there are just so many of them. Sure special rules add some flavor and character, but after a point they get to be cumbersome, and that point has been past long ago. A ton of special rules is fine in a small scale skirmish game like Necromunda, but in something the size of 40k they really need to be limited.

What makes it worse is when its a special rule that has the same effect as a simple stat change.

Yes they are quite cumbersome when I can just ask my opponent if I can read it directly from his codex.

Thats exactly the point...it gets annoying when several times a turn someone is saying "hold on, let me look that up" You shouldnt need to constantly be digging through rulebooks and codexes to play a game. If you like excessively slow games with tons and tons of rules then fine, a decent number of people do...after all, Starfleet Battles is still quite popular.

IMO when a game starts reading like code of law then its a bit much...please reference annex B, page 157, paragraph 7, sub-paragraph 4, section A for that rule...

anywho this is about to take a major detour off topic...so back to the GK...

Mad4Minis wrote:Thats exactly the point...it gets annoying when several times a turn someone is saying "hold on, let me look that up" You shouldnt need to constantly be digging through rulebooks and codexes to play a game. If you like excessively slow games with tons and tons of rules then fine, a decent number of people do...after all, Starfleet Battles is still quite popular.

IMO when a game starts reading like code of law then its a bit much...please reference annex B, page 157, paragraph 7, sub-paragraph 4, section A for that rule...

No offense man but I hope you never have to play games like:

-Magic
-Risk
-Monopoly
-Etc.

All of which are games that easy to pick up the rules for but still require that you read them. Heaven forbid you take 10 seconds to check the other guy's codex to see what special rules his units have. Maybe this is more annoying for a new codex that you might've only heard rumors about and not read it for yourself, but one that's been out for awhile? Do you need to read the other guy's book if you've been playing him for awhile now and already know how he plays?

This is a hobby that involves taking a lot of time purchasing models and their respective rulebooks, assembling and cleaning them, priming, and finally basing and painting them. Are those extra 10 seconds really all that much in the long run? Maybe in a tournament scenario where you only have a set amount of time to play, those seconds can be crucial, but then why are you prepping for a tournament without knowing the rules for the new army that some people might be bringing in the first place?

Anyways, hopefully my last post on the subject, because this is honestly the weirdest complaint I've heard yet.

In my experience there are a lot of players willing to spend a lot of money on miniatures that they hack off a sprue, spend 10 seconds glueing up, and 10 minutes slapping on 3 base colors, so that they can play WAAC style. They're the ones who usually seem to get annoyed by special rules, since they never even started playing as a hobby, but as a competition.

In my experience the hobbyists are the ones who forget/don't know relevant rules 90% of the time.

In my experience everyone just forgets at times it's a game meant to be enjoyed with others over a beer or three pending the age.

My mistake, maybe it's not that the WAAC players that forget the special rules, but are the ones annoyed when everyone else doesn't remember every rule, and has to look it up.

It's a hobby and a game. We should all relax, and enjoy the diversity in the 40k universe. Special rules are part of what makes it interesting.

Leprousy wrote:My mistake, maybe it's not that the WAAC players that forget the special rules, but are the ones annoyed when everyone else doesn't remember every rule, and has to look it up.

It also isn't the "this army gets these 3 rules" , it is specific units getting a wall of text of rules so they can function differently.

no one complains about WBB, because necrons are just "hey does that unit have WBB?" "okay cool"

doom of malentai? different issue

Sorry to ask a minor question so late in the process, but it's such a bleeding long thread that going through it is just so daunting.

It's pretty clear that the DH army list will not be able to take allies. Has it been confirmed that other armies will no longer be able to take units from the codex as allies? I've got a partially-built Marine army that uses GK's, an Inquisitor, and some Stormies; if it's not going to be legal past April or whatever, it'd be nice to know so I can start finding an alternate use for the marine portion of the list.

Thanks, all.

I think it is pretty set in stone there will be no allies in or out of the codex. I think it plans to be standalone, especially since there's been no talk of 'inducted marines' being included within the 'dex.

Magc8Ball wrote:Sorry to ask a minor question so late in the process, but it's such a bleeding long thread that going through it is just so daunting.

It's pretty clear that the DH army list will not be able to take allies. Has it been confirmed that other armies will no longer be able to take units from the codex as allies? I've got a partially-built Marine army that uses GK's, an Inquisitor, and some Stormies; if it's not going to be legal past April or whatever, it'd be nice to know so I can start finding an alternate use for the marine portion of the list.

Thanks, all.

Best bet is to start splitting it into a DH and a Marine army or start some conversions. Most likely allies (both ways) will be completely out. Keep your marines marinie and everything else where it belongs. This actually caused me to start up an IG army because I had inducted guard with my Grey Knights. Now I have around 2000 points or so for guard.