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Lone Cat wrote:you'll rarely uses firearms in combat. since your foes love melee rush.

What.


I use them all the time, especially the vengeance launcher, which is awesomely useful in single player. I'm almost never not out of ammunition with the vengeance launcher lol...

Sckitzo wrote:

His Master's Voice wrote:If you can't accept it's bad design to reward someone for dying in a game based on killing your opponents and staying alive at the same time, well, whatever. Not my problem.

I think you touched on something there.

The game doesn't reward you for staying alive, nor really punish you for dying.

I guess you're right. The maps are so small that some delay between spawns could be good, since you can be back where you died in moments, even as a Dev/Havoc.

I would agree there. That would be a good way to turn down the dial on peoples "Willing to die" machine.

If you can simply choose default spawn, instead of waiting 10 more seconds to spawn at the control point...why would people wait? Only time I have seen this happen is when groups come in all equipped with rapid deployment + teleport homers, and started spawning on each other like a school of salmon. All over the map. It was everywhere.

The silliness of the 10 second wait is that on any map, for at least half the points on it it is faster just to default spawn and walk

With the additional advantages of not spawning with assaults coming down on top of your head, with HBs/snipers and plascannons raining ammo in on top of that. And you might be able to support teammates during the run to the cap point.

SOFDC wrote:

I'm calling bull.
I know the maps like the back of my hand. Blind Grenades alter the direction you move in.

Call bull all ya like buddy, I do it repeatedly. Won't comment on the 360/PS3, I keep most of my shooters PC.

I'm calling bull because there is no way you are actually moving in a coherent pattern without a wall being present. It's infeasible.

Zip.

Mans good at killing himself and taking people with him. I can respect that.

Yeah, after that game I stopped using FV.
It's stupid how easy it is when you know what you're doing and tailor a build specifically to do it.

LIST
Is that enough weapons that I've named?

Well honestly I was hoping more for weapons that actually qualified, rather than a quantity of them. Again, I am speaking from the viewpoint of a PC player versus a console, so things may well be different. I don't know.

If you think none of those weapons qualify under the criteria you gave me to work with("It's a nuisance in the hands of bad players, and in the hands of good players who know what they're doing it might as well be a hack") you may be delusional.

The only one I would give you from the list, maybe, is the plasma pistol. Maybe I just don't have the mojo...but the thing appears to be useless...aside from trolling devastators with the charged shot before flying in. Perhaps that's the point.

Plasma Heat Sink+Plasma Pistol.
Charge it, fire it. Wait two seconds for it to 'detonate' and then fire off a shot at the head.

You will have a kill.

The rest...really? You put BOTH devastator cannons -AND- the stalker bolter in here?

I get winged by those three weapons very commonly. Very rarely do I get killed by anyone who is wielding them and has no clue what they're doing as I roll out of the way before they can do a follow-up shot or put them down with a return shot from the fully upgraded Bolter.
Give me a Plasma Cannon with my loadout however, and I will put people down in large quantities from across the map. I've been called a cheater repeatedly with my Plasma Cannon build(Charge+Extra Ammunition) as I can range the charged shots like you would not believe.
Lascannon with both its unlocks is absurdly good when you know what you're doing. When you don't know what you're doing--you might as well hit someone over the head with it for all the good it will do you.
Stalker Bolter is a bit of a wash. Yes, you can make kills with it as a bad player--but you're nowhere near as terrifying as someone who knows what the hell they're doing.

The meltagun too? Are you kidding me? There is nothing in the game more annoying than to be winged by one of these being flailed wildly, and they are ALL absolutely terrifying to behold in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing.

You haven't seen bads using the Meltagun. I've had people try to snipe me with it.
The only time I'm ever worried about it is when I'm playing Assault, as I've had plenty of instances where I've jumped in on a group of Devastators only to have a Meltagunner spawn at the point.

I can't even give you the bolt pistol from this list, with how easy stomp + two bolt pistol rounds is to pull off. Again, this is on PC. People can aim better here than they could in my forays into console multiplayer FPS/TPS.

If you say so.

I have watched people get repeated 4:1, 5:1 or better with Ye Olde Meltagun + Stalker + MC nades build. There are plenty of people noobing it up with the build too, but i'd rate it as THE most versatile and one of the most powerful (Even if I didn't crown it there too.) builds in the game. FV has nothing on the other things in this game. Nothing at all. Even the hammer, which I despise using, has more killing ability.

You're playing simply deathmatch I'm betting.

You're also neglecting the thing that usually puts those builds up there.
Stalker shots x2+a followup grenade.

I'm calling bull because there is no way you are actually moving in a coherent pattern without a wall being present. It's infeasible.

Perhaps with over a decade and a half playing games like this, I might just be able to approximate how much time I have to back up before I reach the corner to the 20-30 foot wide corridor, how far over the mousepad I need to move my mouse to turn 90 degrees, and then continue backing up. Just a hunch though, could be wrong. Alternatively, I might also just be able to remember how far over to move my mouse to point myself at that huge gaping space between the pillars, hit my sprint key, and hope for the best. Tends to work out with me a fair distance from where I started, but what do I know? I've only been doing this longer than half of the COD playerbase has been breathing. -shrug-

It's stupid how easy it is when you know what you're doing and tailor a build specifically to do it.

Welcome to space marine! You've passed the first hurdle on to godhood! This goes in with my next point:

If you think none of those weapons qualify under the criteria you gave me to work with("It's a nuisance in the hands of bad players, and in the hands of good players who know what they're doing it might as well be a hack") you may be delusional.

Perhaps if you actually READ my posts you would have an easier time, I know I go back and correct typos a lot, but I assure you, once they are responded to they get set in stone. This is the relevant bit which I think you refer to:

Name one weapon in the game that does not fit this criteria. There are some psychopaths out there that turn the tactical knife into a nightmare.

Kanluwen just won that argument....

Ain't about who wins or loses!

I'm here to challenge an idea. If he can give me a reason on why FV (Or any other thing you could name in SM( is just so horrible and needs to be removed from the game that doesn't amount to whining about "Well I just don't like it." then I will stand corrected.

Thus far all I have heard are arguments that apply to multiple other things at least as well, and the above "reason."

Give me something, anything, as to why this particular one thing needs to be removed that wouldn't also apply to removing half the game. Come on. The guy who said "It rewards you for dying in a game that is supposed to reward you for killing the opponent and staying alive!" came closest, but as another poster already pointed out: There -IS- no reward for staying alive. My score stays the same whether I die after killing you or not, all that changes is my K: D and my ability to stroke my e-<CENSORED> to my friends.

FV should be removed because it's a gimmick with no impact on the game except for annoyance of other people.

Rewarding death in ANY game is never a good idea.

SOFDC wrote:Ain't about who wins or loses!

I'm here to challenge an idea. If he can give me a reason on why FV (Or any other thing you could name in SM( is just so horrible and needs to be removed from the game that doesn't amount to whining about "Well I just don't like it." then I will stand corrected.

Sorry, where did I say it needs to be removed?

I didn't. I said that it is an absurdly good ability that rewards people for dying on top of someone, while playing as a class where you are going to be on top of them no matter what.
If there was a perk that made it so the Heavy Bolter regenerated ammunition every time you killed someone while deployed you'd be complaining about it as unbalanced in all likelihood.

Thus far all I have heard are arguments that apply to multiple other things at least as well, and the above "reason."

No, you haven't.

Give me something, anything, as to why this particular one thing needs to be removed that wouldn't also apply to removing half the game. Come on. The guy who said "It rewards you for dying in a game that is supposed to reward you for killing the opponent and staying alive!" came closest, but as another poster already pointed out: There -IS- no reward for staying alive.My score stays the same whether I die after killing you or not, all that changes is my K: D and my ability to stroke my e-<CENSORED> to my friends.

Yeah, there is. Killstreaks, resulting in a better score, and several perk challenges require you to obtain multikills or killstreaks.
There's also the points you receive for serving as a Teleport Homer or defending a point in Seize Ground.

FV should be removed because it's a gimmick with no impact on the game except for annoyance of other people.

No impact on the game? Didn't we just have people telling us that FV gives you kills for basically doing nothing, and how with blind grenades it was apparently very effective? That it could be so good it might as well be a hack? I would say that's an impact on the game.

/Contrary mode semi-off.

Rewarding death in ANY game is never a good idea.

I could not disagree more strongly with this if I tried. Rewarding certain TYPES of death is not a good idea. My jumping into the middle of your spawn and tying up your entire team for a few seconds so my TEAM can capture a point SHOULD be rewarded. In a CTF game, my throwing myself onto the sentry guns and defenders so someone can get the flag and get out SHOULD be rewarded. My holding the line until the last bullet and then putting a grenade down my pants and giving the attackers a hug so my team gets a chance to regroup SHOULD be rewarded.

Anything that advances teamwork and team victory should be rewarded. What should -not- is the blatant, epileptic flailing into the enemy to set off a bomb.

I think your objection is more to the players that use FV as a crutch, rather than the perk itself.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yeah, there is. Killstreaks, resulting in a better score, and several perk challenges require you to obtain multikills or killstreaks.
There's also the points you receive for serving as a Teleport Homer or defending a point in Seize Ground.

And there is a better counterpoint. Yes, it's true that your death may prevent you from doing these things, but there is nothing stopping a FV user from staying alive as long as he would without the perk, now is there?

I think the point being made was there was nothing actively detracting from ones score due to death, rather than a passive inability to obtain things like killstreak bonuses.

SOFDC wrote:

FV should be removed because it's a gimmick with no impact on the game except for annoyance of other people.

No impact on the game? Didn't we just have people telling us that FV gives you kills for basically doing nothing, and how with blind grenades it was apparently very effective? That it could be so good it might as well be a hack? I would say that's an impact on the game.

/Contrary mode semi-off.

Rewarding death in ANY game is never a good idea.

I could not disagree more strongly with this if I tried. Rewarding certain TYPES of death is not a good idea. My jumping into the middle of your spawn and tying up your entire team for a few seconds so my TEAM can capture a point SHOULD be rewarded. In a CTF game, my throwing myself onto the sentry guns and defenders so someone can get the flag and get out SHOULD be rewarded. My holding the line until the last bullet and then putting a grenade down my pants and giving the attackers a hug so my team gets a chance to regroup SHOULD be rewarded.

Anything that advances teamwork and team victory should be rewarded. What should -not- is the blatant, epileptic flailing into the enemy to set off a bomb.

I think your objection is more to the players that use FV as a crutch, rather than the perk itself.

The perk is a crutch, no matter how you spin it. It requires no skill to use, it requires no interaction on the player's part. It is dumb luck rewarded.

Yeah, there is. Killstreaks, resulting in a better score, and several perk challenges require you to obtain multikills or killstreaks.
There's also the points you receive for serving as a Teleport Homer or defending a point in Seize Ground.

And there is a better counterpoint. Yes, it's true that your death may prevent you from doing these things, but there is nothing stopping a FV user from staying alive as long as he would without the perk, now is there?

I think the point being made was there was nothing actively detracting from ones score due to death, rather than a passive inability to obtain things like killstreak bonuses.

A person should not be receiving a minimum of one kill or a maximum of six from a perk that requires no interaction. There should be no single perk that is so stupidly widespread that one gets questioned "Why don't you have X when you play as X class?".

SOFDC wrote:

Rewarding death in ANY game is never a good idea.

I could not disagree more strongly with this if I tried. Rewarding certain TYPES of death is not a good idea. My jumping into the middle of your spawn and tying up your entire team for a few seconds so my TEAM can capture a point SHOULD be rewarded. In a CTF game, my throwing myself onto the sentry guns and defenders so someone can get the flag and get out SHOULD be rewarded. My holding the line until the last bullet and then putting a grenade down my pants and giving the attackers a hug so my team gets a chance to regroup SHOULD be rewarded.

Anything that advances teamwork and team victory should be rewarded. What should -not- is the blatant, epileptic flailing into the enemy to set off a bomb.

I think your objection is more to the players that use FV as a crutch, rather than the perk itself.

If you jump into an enemy spawn with a suicide perk, you should NOT be rewarded, and their are other, better ways of helping you're team without being a suicide bomber...

It is dumb luck rewarded.

So is explosives spam. So is wildly right clicking with assault in a group of opponents. So is spraying down a chokepoint with an extra ammo heavy bolter. All of these things will readily get you kills, easily getting you a positive K: D if your opponents are not paying attention.

This is a complaint about something so wide spread in this game it ceases to hold weight.

A person should not be receiving a minimum of one kill or a maximum of six from a perk that requires no interaction.

And? Hold down mouse 1, wait three seconds, release is any better? "Player interaction required" is not a binary thing. There is a point at which the difference becomes moot, and FV vs. a good portion of the other damage dealing things in the game has reached it.

There should be no single perk that is so stupidly widespread that one gets questioned "Why don't you have X when you play as X class?".

Oh, you mean like Meltagun and/or stalker tacticals? Kraken bolters? What about hammers? I've had a half dozen people go on a spiel about how much better hammers are than the other weapons in recent memory. Perhaps they can all go too. Oh, and lascannons. And the Iron halo. And plasma cannons. I've taken more flak for using a HB rather than a plasmacannon so many times it makes me want to rage.

So again, as much as I'd like to side with the arguments that force me to advocate removing half the game to remain intellectually consistant, no thank you.

IMO hammers suck, way to slow of a swing, can just doge roll back. bolter with both upgrades is strong, but not OP or annoying. Iron halo is not a MUST have for devs, sometimes I take it sometimes I don't. Plasma cannons I also hate, but not as much as FV. lascannons should just get a rate of fire nerf.
and melta guns aren't that great, if an assault has impenetrable it usually take 2 hits to take them down, 2 hits with a slow recharge time = not OP, annoying sometimes, but doesn't need to be removed.

Nightfall wrote:NOOOO just checked the PC specs... MY 9400GT SUCKs!!! why,.. WHY... it will run the game... but on LOW... WHY... thats why people buy consoles... cause they don't have to upgrade them just buy the new one...

I think consoles cost a tad more than a new GPU...

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Nightfall wrote:NOOOO just checked the PC specs... MY 9400GT SUCKs!!! why,.. WHY... it will run the game... but on LOW... WHY... thats why people buy consoles... cause they don't have to upgrade them just buy the new one...

I think consoles cost a tad more than a new GPU...

I don't know about you, but I don't know how to put in another GPU, which is way I was always a console gamer, except for RTS games, their always better on PC

And a High end GPU can actually cost more then a console these days.

You have two options, maintain a good gaming PC which you'll need to upgrade every 3 - 4 years or play on a console. Personally I'd rather spend £700 every 3 - 4 years and be able to play at 60fps @ 1080p with high IQ. My PC is like 3 years old and BF3 is the only game I've played which couldn't maintain 60fps @ 1080p so I'll be grabbing a GTX 580 in the January sales.

I also own both consoles, but I rarely game on them any more due to sub HD resolutions and piss poor frame rate.

MrH wrote:You have two options, maintain a good gaming PC which you'll need to upgrade every 3 - 4 years

You don't need to upgrade your computer every three to four years...

And sure, if you get an absolute top of the line GPU it's more expensive than a console, but bleeding-edge GPUs/processors are oftentimes not actually that much better than mid-upper processors.

Melissia wrote:

MrH wrote:You have two options, maintain a good gaming PC which you'll need to upgrade every 3 - 4 years

You don't need to upgrade your computer every three to four years...

You do if you want to play at full HD @ 60fps with high IQ.

MrH wrote:

Melissia wrote:

MrH wrote:You have two options, maintain a good gaming PC which you'll need to upgrade every 3 - 4 years

You don't need to upgrade your computer every three to four years...

You do if you want to play at full HD @ 60fps with high IQ.

Wait, you mean, to play games at quality levels none of the consoles can handle, you need superior hardware than the consoles themselves have?

Are you going to find out that fire is hot soon as well?

Melissia wrote:

MrH wrote:

Melissia wrote:

MrH wrote:You have two options, maintain a good gaming PC which you'll need to upgrade every 3 - 4 years

You don't need to upgrade your computer every three to four years...

You do if you want to play at full HD @ 60fps with high IQ.

Wait, you mean, to play games at quality levels none of the consoles can handle, you need superior hardware than the consoles themselves have?

Are you going to find out that fire is hot soon as well?

Are you on something? You've just totally lost the plot. How do you get to that from what I said? We're talking about how often you need to upgrade a gaming PC, so I don't know why you started talking about consoles.

MrH wrote:Are you on something? You've just totally lost the plot. How do you get to that from what I said?

I dunno, maybe it's because you're and whining and moaning that, in order to obtain the very top level graphics... graphics which consoles can't handle... you have to constantly upgrade your computer.

I haven't upgraded this computer in almost six years now (will be six+ years come late December). It runs Space Marine on the high settings with no slowdowns even in the most graphically demanding situations.

The entire rig-- processor, monitor, motherboard, power source, audio system, keyboard+mouse, etc., all brand new-- cost me just over one thousand. And that includes all of the non-gaming use I get out of it too, which so far has pushed the computer's usefulness FAR beyond my Wii (or my PS3 before I sold it).

Computer parts are even cheaper now than they were back then.

Melissia wrote:

MrH wrote:Are you on something? You've just totally lost the plot. How do you get to that from what I said?

I dunno, maybe it's because you're and whining and moaning that, in order to obtain the very top level graphics... graphics which consoles can't handle... you have to constantly upgrade your computer.

I haven't upgraded this computer in almost six years now (will be six+ years come late December). It runs Space Marine on the high settings with no slowdowns even in the most graphically demanding situations.

The entire rig-- processor, monitor, motherboard, power source, audio system, keyboard+mouse, etc-- cost me just over one thousand.

How in the hell was I whining? You better be on something, or you're just plain old dumb. I have absolutely no problem upgrading every 4 years for an optimal gaming experience, I guess you completely misunderstood what I said.

And good for you, Space Marine isn't a very demanding game, but I was talking about in general. I'd like to see you run BF3 on your 8 year old PC and maintain 60fps @ 1080p. Are you starting to understand now? Is it soaking into your brain that you should probably re-read everything twice if you don't have the capacity to understand what is being said the first time? Good. It'll save us all some bother.

I don't know what it is with you but you seem to love to enter a thread, make a stupid ass comment, get called out on it and then slither away, never to be seen or heard from again.

I think we need to chill out before a mod locks this thread, okay

bombboy1252 wrote:I think we need to chill out before a mod locks this thread, okay

We should break out some mentos and an air conditioner

LordofHats wrote:

bombboy1252 wrote:I think we need to chill out before a mod locks this thread, okay

We should break out some mentos and an air conditioner

agreed, ill bring ice cream cones for good measure

I actually ditched FV a few day back, it was useful but the weapon perks are more so. If your playing in a lower level game FV is very useful as the noobs haven't learned to run. A mid level game it is still useful because they have learned to run, but panic in doing so. High level not so much, as most of the players have figured out exactly what's going on and know not to scatter from a dead assault like cockroaches as they'll be gunned down by his teammates.