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 greyknight12 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ug.....460pts for a decently equipped Crusader....No bueno.

Yeah, not happy about that.
I'm also not happy that tournaments are banning 50% of my armies because wraithknights happen to be undercosted.

Pray tell? Knights arent LoW, they get around the 1 LOW rule

It's not the same thing though and you're bringing in oranges to the apple fight. Comparing it to android devices is like bringing mantic into the discussion. The better comparison would be you can if you choose upgrade to the new model 7s (the new codex with new units, cheaper costs, and str D!) but you can also continue using without any issue your old 4s from a few years back. In any case, the original comparison is null and void because GW shouldn't be able to take all the benefits of the comparison (bilking folks yearly for largely the same thing) without the disadvantages TO THEM (still being able to use your old products without any difficulty for many years after the new model comes out). In any case, it might be better to go back to the knight models instead of the fleecing financial codex plan that accompanies their release.

 Wilson wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
How do I use a Knight Crusader with the old book?

You wait for it to appear on kickass, download and print off the pages you want in A4. Should fit perfectly into your knight codex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, wasnt the last knight codex a 7th ed release? Or was it just before?

Pretty sure they were 6e, I remember them having to be FAQd for the new edition.

 FSWG wrote:
So I own a store and just placed my GW orders for the week. Did my knight orders and brought up the whole knight codex only being around for one year and a lot of people are mad about it. According to my GW rep they didn't really sell any knight codexs and didn't even have to do a reprinting. So the numbers were more in their favor to make a new codex. I brought up how my business is only 4 months old and only one customer has bought a knight codex. Since that sale was in the last 3 months my GW rep sent me a free copy of the Knight codex to replace that customer's old one. Pretty nice of him. I suggest to any players who just recently got Knights to talk to their FLGS to see if they can get a free replacement. With that said. Please don't abuse the system if you really bought the codex a year ago but are claiming you just recently got it. There is always that one guy who ruins it for the rest of us.

Thanks for sharing your experiences. That is very cool of the GW rep. Props

I believe that you can stock balance (return) some items, including books once a year, too, right? So you have the ability to return old codex still on the shelf, like Eldar, SM, IK, etc. that won't sell.

 FSWG wrote:

Now the argument of the codex being one year old and you have to buy it to play the game with knights. I told my rep that and he had a strong counterpoint. Apple and phone companies upgrade their devices every year and people buy it. Yes those companies will do some kind of program for you turning in your old phone, but what about videogames. Sports videogames like Madden come out with a new one every year and you have to buy it to play the latest game. I think us GW players have been lucky that we expect a book to last 4 years. What GW is doing is nothing new in the business industry, they are just finally doing it. Now a subscription would be a great thing or return your old book or something. I would like to find some middle ground that GW could meet us players half way. (like lowering the damn price)

I would love a subscription service. Ironically, I'd still buy all the paper copies of the main books, because I happen to like paper. But I'd skip new releases like Skitarii and IK until they were more beefy, and

A better video game analogy -- which Games Workshop is obviously adopting the model of -- is DLC (Downloadable Content). Video games used to be $60. Now, they're $60 + 3-5 addon packs that are $10-20 each, bringing the total price over 18 months to $120, at which point they release the next game. On the plus side, you can play the original game and just ignore all the DLC if you so choose. Essentially, this is what is happening with Codex releases, Supplements, and Dataslates.

I don't think the iPhone analogy is that great, because the useful lifespan of electronics is very short compared to miniatures. One of my Blood Angels Assault Squads **that I still game with** was built in the 80's (Rogue Trader, original Space Marines plastic kit). I don't think I have anything that plugs into the wall that's that old, and I don't think I've ever kept a cell phone for longer than 3 years. Also, electronics benefit from advances in RAPID technology and software innovation, whereas miniatures have gotten better, but not by THAT much, and not THAT much faster.

All that being said, it is what it is. People should not get into 40k now, if they want a game that they buy and essentially stays the same for many years; this just isn't GW's vision, and rapid release cadence is now their thing, for better or worse.

 FSWG wrote:

Also on the being an owner side of all these new releases. I hate it. So many things are coming out every week that my customers can't keep up with it or save money for it. And as a business owner I have to spend more money on my weekly orders of GW product for brand new stuff than what I sale a week. Sure I don't have order it but then I run risk. Customer comes in, doesn't see the hot new item they wanted and walks out, don't place my orders and GW is out of stock for months (tomb blades) and as a brand new store in the DFW area I can't afford to have those mistakes with so much competition (some who do more of an insane discount) all within an hour drive from my store.

In fairness, I don't think (most) customers should be encouraged to buy **everything** that Games Workshop pumps out for 40k. I mean, there are some crazy people (like me) that buy almost everything, but there is no chance that I'll ever paint it all, unless GW goes out of business AND I live to be a thousand years old. Practically, most people will collect 1-3 factions, and have anywhere upwards to 5-6 rulebooks. There really aren't that many models that come out for any particular faction on a regular basis.

For example, since 2014:

- Knights came out about a year ago and are now getting 1 upgrade sprue (at a pretty reasonable price, too)
- Dark Eldar got one Archon and Succubus model, and it's not like the old ones stopped working; plus two Haemonculous releases.
- Blood Angels got new Tacticals (yay!) but again, they don't supersede the old ones. The Assault Terminators, yes, but really... the only reason to play them is fluff.
- Necron got one whopping Overlord model.
- Eldar got 3 solid models. But, when was the last time they got anything nice?
- Tyranids got a couple of cool models and the drop pod.
- Harlequins and Skitarrii are new, so there are lots of kits. But it's not like you have to run out and buy them if you play Space Marines, Imperial Guard, or Orks, you know what I mean?

Yeah, I'm missing a few factions that were updated, but you get the idea. Whether you play Space Wolves or Imperial Knights, it's not like you need to be running out to your FLGS and buying new stuff every week. I'm sure if you played Khorne, you were very excited to see the new Bloodthirster; if you played Tyranids, the drop pods were exciting, et cetera.

And while it's nice to have a shelf full of black-spined hardcover rulebooks, it's hardly important to buy ALL of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wilson wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
How do I use a Knight Crusader with the old book?

You wait for it to appear on kickass, download and print off the pages you want in A4. Should fit perfectly into your knight codex.

Or, you buy the model, and use the dataslate that comes in the box. The pics that person on 4chan snapped looks pretty complete to me (with all the options, etc.). How were you going to play a Knight Crusader without buying one anyhow?

Why are people arguing about the codex? GW found another way to squeeze more money out of people. It's not like they weren't doing it before. It's just that they got better at it now.

If they were competent in their codex releases it would be one thing, if they were releasing a bunch of codexes in a year to balance the game, well massive props to them then. But lol, of course they aren't doing that. They are just trying to make money.

My suggestion to you all is if you don't like that there is a second Knight codex after one year, don't buy it. Unless you play in tournaments where they demand evidence you own the rules, why bother? People dissect the rules online in depth, there's your rules for you.

I don't think GW doing this but I think the Apple analogy isn't one they should make. People buy new Iphones because as their Iphone gets older, updates and new releases are no longer optimized for the older phone and hiccups that start because of it. For the most part it doesn't bother people so much because Apple has its business cycled laid out so phones start failing when people would start considering replacing them, but with any shred of intent its actually quite insidious. Imagine if after a random amount of time, you were to take your car in to be serviced and they were to update the computer controls on the engine, and as a consequence of this the manufacturers newer cars aren't just more efficient but your older vehicle is now less efficient than before and thus burns more gas per mile than previously. In that way they could push people who drive their vehicles more than the 100,000 miles to go upgrade. That's what Apple does systemically. Apple may not be doing that intentionally but it is systemically imposing a designed obsolescence. When I was studying engineering, the first chapter in our ethics class was literally on designed obsolescence and how no matter how appealing it is innately unethical no matter how its justified. Once you start doing something like this, it becomes too tempting to push that point of failure to 90,000 miles or replacement after 2 years instead of 3 years.

This is certainly the perception of what GWs done but its a bit misplaced. GWs mistake is the lack luster first release followed shortly by a second lackluster release. All I can say is at least we didn't have to wait as long as Dark Eldar or Sisters of Battle.

@aka - I don't think that most companies sabotage their own products, whether GM or Apple or GW. Every company wants to dip into your wallet as frequently as possible. For a company like GW, one would hope this means more products their customers want, rather than more products their customers don't want.

On one hand, yes, the whole IK codex thing does not make me very happy, mostly because I think last year, 1 codex for effectively 1 model was crazy. It's barely better this year. I also wish AdMech had been 1 book.

On the other hand, I looked forward to every other book (and model) release since 7e, so this is hardly a pattern.

Here's another way to think of it...

Obviously Games Workshop is sitting on decades worth of background and fluff that they could, in theory, flesh out and release models for.

I don't know what determines the tipping point when one release or update or new model gets pushed to market, but I highly doubt it is simply a bunch of guys sitting around with beers staring at each other saying "Well, what should we launch next month?" There are probably master release calendars that span many years into the future, just so that they can keep their army of creative writers, sculptors, visual artists, editors, marketers, etc all on track with manageable workloads and schedules.

Maybe last year they decided "You know what? We haven't gotten all the kinks worked out for the rules/mold/whatever for the Imperial Knights, but they are scheduled to drop in four months, so let's make the necessary edits and give the community the best we can." Then they turned to whoever's department was screwed up and said, "You have a year. Fix it." So now this is happening.

The alternative would have been no Knights at all. I think we all have thoroughly enjoyed having the new array of large models in Warhammer 40,000 over the past year, and I think that 7th Edition would not be nearly as popular without the Imperial Knights to grab peoples' attention (whether or not they ever actually buy and play one).

Do I like buying a new codex when I haven't even gotten my knight assembled and painted to use the last one (which, by the way, is no longer in the iBooks store... meaning if my computer crashes, it may be gone forever... but that's a separate rant)? No. Would I rather have not had an Imperial Knight codex at all? Definitely not.

My love of the hobby, the setting, and the game is greater for each and every new thing Games Workshop releases. Call me a fanboy... or just a fan. I love this hobby.

 HGChamberlainIV wrote:

The alternative would have been no Knights at all. I think we all have thoroughly enjoyed having the new array of large models in Warhammer 40,000 over the past year, and I think that 7th Edition would not be nearly as popular without the Imperial Knights to grab peoples' attention (whether or not they ever actually buy and play one).

No, the alternative would have been at worst a white dwarf article for $5 with all the rules for the new knight variants. Another would have been a free pdf with the same since they fethed up so badly that they feel the need to replace a product less than a year after first printing. The one they chose is simply the greediest and most expensive option.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh silly me, I should have, of course, specified legally because this is the internet.

Tell me, would your response to "how do I get a Ferrari" be "break into a Ferrari owners house and steal their keys?"

You could just buy the White Dwarf that has all the rules and points in it. $6 codex for the new knights, 100% legal.

xera32 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh silly me, I should have, of course, specified legally because this is the internet.

Tell me, would your response to "how do I get a Ferrari" be "break into a Ferrari owners house and steal their keys?"

You could just buy the White Dwarf that has all the rules and points in it. $6 codex for the new knights, 100% legal.

It is a very nice White dwarf.

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ug.....460pts for a decently equipped Crusader....No bueno.

Yeah, not happy about that.
I'm also not happy that tournaments are banning 50% of my armies because wraithknights happen to be undercosted.

Pray tell? Knights arent LoW, they get around the 1 LOW rule

There's a rumor that they will be in the new codex. Regardless, NOVA and my local store have both banned superheavies/gargantuans for their 40K tournaments.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ug.....460pts for a decently equipped Crusader....No bueno.

Yeah, not happy about that.
I'm also not happy that tournaments are banning 50% of my armies because wraithknights happen to be undercosted.

Pray tell? Knights arent LoW, they get around the 1 LOW rule

There's a rumor that they will be in the new codex. Regardless, NOVA and my local store have both banned superheavies/gargantuans for their 40K tournaments.

Lame. Tell them to toughen up and play some 40k and not Banhammer.

xera32 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh silly me, I should have, of course, specified legally because this is the internet.

Tell me, would your response to "how do I get a Ferrari" be "break into a Ferrari owners house and steal their keys?"

You could just buy the White Dwarf that has all the rules and points in it. $6 codex for the new knights, 100% legal.

I was under the impression that it didn't have all the variants. Am I mistaken or you?

 warboss wrote:

xera32 wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Oh silly me, I should have, of course, specified legally because this is the internet.

Tell me, would your response to "how do I get a Ferrari" be "break into a Ferrari owners house and steal their keys?"

You could just buy the White Dwarf that has all the rules and points in it. $6 codex for the new knights, 100% legal.

I was under the impression that it didn't have all the variants. Am I mistaken or you?

I don't have the WD, but I do know it lists the weapon profiles, and the kit itself contains the statline, options, and cost for all variants (including the old variants, but appears to not list the weapon profiles). So if you buy a kit, and a WD, you have all the rules to run an unbound knight army.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Imagine if after a random amount of time, you were to take your car in to be serviced and they were to update the computer controls on the engine, and as a consequence of this the manufacturers newer cars aren't just more efficient but your older vehicle is now less efficient than before and thus burns more gas per mile than previously. In that way they could push people who drive their vehicles more than the 100,000 miles to go upgrade. That's what Apple does systemically. Apple may not be doing that intentionally but it is systemically imposing a designed obsolescence. When I was studying engineering, the first chapter in our ethics class was literally on designed obsolescence and how no matter how appealing it is innately unethical no matter how its justified. Once you start doing something like this, it becomes too tempting to push that point of failure to 90,000 miles or replacement after 2 years instead of 3 years.

Hmm, I don't think this example works, and I don't think you can compare phones to GW business. First, I'd say designed obsolescence would require some intent behind it - the line is hard to draw, of course, but I don't think any phone manufacturer does it intentionally, just because it'd be bad PR. They just match the parts reliability and software support to the expected lifespan of a product, for more efficient pricing. At some point, most people have replaced their model anyway, so investment in more expensive, more durable parts and support personnel time don't pay off anymore. However, it should be noticed that you can still use your old phone for years, just without all the latest updates.

I'd say phones are like the car industry - you buy a model today and you can use it for 20 years, but at some point it becomes more difficult to find spares for it as there's less and less of those around. You could design one to last for 50 years with spares manufacturing and other support to match, but if everyone wants a new model after 5-10 years, what's the point to support it? Of course the ethical side to this question is, how long should a product last anyway - a more green way to look at it would be thinking how to expand the lifespan a bit, especially if you can get customers to pay a bit of extra for that quality.

Moving on to GW, I'd consider codexes more like a licensing a product - you pay to be able to play with your minis with the latest rules. Why people are pissed off about rapidly appearing new editions, is that when you buy a new one, you'd expect it'd last for something like 3 years. This is how you calculate the lifespan cost. When the next one appears after 1-2 years, you feel cheated because you had to replace it earlier than you thought, and now your costs have suddenly gone up. What would be fair from GW would be either to price the product so that you don't mind getting a new one every year, or supporting the codex until the expected lifespan ends, for example by publishing free updates.

GW actually takes a PR risk with it's behaviour of not giving you an expected lifespan, or supporting a product through it. I cannot fault any customer who complains about it, really, if GW doesn't give out any info what to expect with your product. IMO it's another sign of poor management, as anyone with a degree in management should be familiar with product revenue strategy and how does it affect customer behaviour - especially when GW is looking for people to buy a long-term investment into 'the hobby'.

I actually say in the first line I don't think it's an analogy they should make. That this example they drew to themselves and is an imperfect one and would make them out as worse than I think they actually are.

My discussion of cars is only to relate what Apple does and to express why I think the analogy GW made of itself doesn't fit.

On the ethics of obsolecence and how long should a product should last... It should last as long as it's useful. If you design into a product a point at which it ceases to be useful you are encroaching on a persons ownership. Things are designed to last atleast so long and not to completely fail at a given point. In this age of blurred ownership rights companies can cause premature failure by altering the thing which they retain ownership.

In terms of what GW the only thing that fits this is how they pull the older versions of ebooks from the App store preventing people who own the from having continued access.

xera32 wrote:

I don't have the WD, but I do know it lists the weapon profiles, and the kit itself contains the statline, options, and cost for all variants (including the old variants, but appears to not list the weapon profiles). So if you buy a kit, and a WD, you have all the rules to run an unbound knight army.

Yes, I believe that is correct. If you go back a page or so, I linked photos of what comes in the kit for rules, which actually looked really nice.

The formations should be on bloodofkittens, and anyhow discussed ad nauseam on dakka soon.

yeah,
I'd be pissed if I had a game planned today and had just replaced my iPad...

Has anyone who bought the iPad version called them to ask why the can no longer download their Codex.
Especially since it's still valid until the new one is released.

Panic...

Removing the old digital edition is a bit of a misstep on GW's part, I'm sure its covered in the T&Cs but it does nothing for customer relations for those who actually buy rather than obtain the digital product.

I brought the codex last year when it came out, played it about twice and switched to the HH IV list as it was much more rounded codex to play. I've had codex like that over the years were I just haven't gotten along with it and I've not really played that army as a result. If I wasn't such a horder I would have sold off that army at the time.

I can see why GW won't offer an exchange or discount option for early adopters but again it doesn't nothing for customer relations.

It surprises me time and time again why "miniatures making" and "certanly not gaming" company even demanding money for the rules? Rule should be like bonus, like catalog to help sell models. It's like schizophrenia.

 Reinokarite wrote:
It surprises me time and time again why "miniatures making" and "certanly not gaming" company even demanding money for the rules? Rule should be like bonus, like catalog to help sell models. It's like schizophrenia.

It's a lie equal to the "forge the narrative" crap.

I just noticed the cards for the new Knight codex were $16...this is getting really annoying. I liked the idea of the cards when they first came out, when they were selling sets of them at like $8, which is pretty reasonable in my opinion. But they've been steadily increasing now and then to the point where they've literally now doubled. Add to that the realization that those card sets will be obsolete after barely a year or two anyway and it's kinda killed my desire to buy the damn things anymore. Another classic example of GW having a good idea and then fething it up, I guess.

Kinda doing the same thing with codices, too, honestly. Getting sick of buying them.

 Harriticus wrote:

 warboss wrote:
So if the first book had rules for the yet to be released knights and they replaced it with just a tweaked book with nothing new one year later that, in your opinion, isn't a dick move?

Spoiler:

lol, I love it.

 greyknight12 wrote:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:

 greyknight12 wrote:

 Hulksmash wrote:
Ug.....460pts for a decently equipped Crusader....No bueno.

Yeah, not happy about that.
I'm also not happy that tournaments are banning 50% of my armies because wraithknights happen to be undercosted.

Pray tell? Knights arent LoW, they get around the 1 LOW rule

There's a rumor that they will be in the new codex. Regardless, NOVA and my local store have both banned superheavies/gargantuans for their 40K tournaments.

I believe NOVA on banned the lance formation so you may want to recheck that.

 Sidstyler wrote:
I just noticed the cards for the new Knight codex were $16...this is getting really annoying. I liked the idea of the cards when they first came out, when they were selling sets of them at like $8, which is pretty reasonable in my opinion. But they've been steadily increasing now and then to the point where they've literally now doubled. Add to that the realization that those card sets will be obsolete after barely a year or two anyway and it's kinda killed my desire to buy the damn things anymore. Another classic example of GW having a good idea and then fething it up, I guess.

Kinda doing the same thing with codices, too, honestly. Getting sick of buying them.

 Harriticus wrote:

 warboss wrote:
So if the first book had rules for the yet to be released knights and they replaced it with just a tweaked book with nothing new one year later that, in your opinion, isn't a dick move?

Spoiler:

lol, I love it.

The new cards are 12.50. Not 16 dollars.

BoLS posted some pics from the book and this was one of them. Maybe they are fleshing out more of the Houses on the LE Decal sheet. I think this one is pretty gorgeous and hope they do Vulker as well.

And of course, because I am desperate - if anyone is looking to part ways with the Griffith or Mortan decals, hit me up.

 Talys wrote:
A better video game analogy -- which Games Workshop is obviously adopting the model of -- is DLC (Downloadable Content). Video games used to be $60. Now, they're $60 + 3-5 addon packs that are $10-20 each, bringing the total price over 18 months to $120, at which point they release the next game. On the plus side, you can play the original game and just ignore all the DLC if you so choose. Essentially, this is what is happening with Codex releases, Supplements, and Dataslates.

Though DLC stops feeling like a good idea around the point where content was obviously cut from the initial release (or left locked on the disc in some cases!) so that it could be released later to wring out a bit more cash.

I've still got the 2E Chaos codex on a shelf somewhere, and it has three variant lists (Red Corsairs, Daemon World, Chaos Cult) also in it for no extra cost over other codexes of the time. Wonder what that package would cost me these days?

 Elemental wrote:

 Talys wrote:
A better video game analogy -- which Games Workshop is obviously adopting the model of -- is DLC (Downloadable Content). Video games used to be $60. Now, they're $60 + 3-5 addon packs that are $10-20 each, bringing the total price over 18 months to $120, at which point they release the next game. On the plus side, you can play the original game and just ignore all the DLC if you so choose. Essentially, this is what is happening with Codex releases, Supplements, and Dataslates.

Though DLC stops feeling like a good idea around the point where content was obviously cut from the initial release (or left locked on the disc in some cases!) so that it could be released later to wring out a bit more cash.

I've still got the 2E Chaos codex on a shelf somewhere, and it has three variant lists (Red Corsairs, Daemon World, Chaos Cult) also in it for no extra cost over other codexes of the time. Wonder what that package would cost me these days?

That's easy. $40 USD each on top of the $50 codex.

 Elemental wrote:

Though DLC stops feeling like a good idea around the point where content was obviously cut from the initial release (or left locked on the disc in some cases!) so that it could be released later to wring out a bit more cash.

No different than The Hobbit being split into 3 parts (holy crap, that was annoying), or Mockingjay into 2.

The truth of it, however, is that were it not for DLC, the game would simply cost twice as much or be split into multiple titles. I don't like it any more than you, but a more positive way to look at it is that if you don't like the game, you only spend half as much -- so the second instalment payment is due if you want to keep playing it So, for instance, I liked Ryse: Son of Rome, but not enough to reward them with more money.

it further goes to show how entertainment prices have outpaced inflation -- inflation averages around 2-3% per annum depending on the year you start measuring from (it was much higher in the 80s than 90s), whereas luxury entertainment goods sit somewhere closer to 4% per annum.

 warboss wrote:

 Elemental wrote:

 Talys wrote:
A better video game analogy -- which Games Workshop is obviously adopting the model of -- is DLC (Downloadable Content). Video games used to be $60. Now, they're $60 + 3-5 addon packs that are $10-20 each, bringing the total price over 18 months to $120, at which point they release the next game. On the plus side, you can play the original game and just ignore all the DLC if you so choose. Essentially, this is what is happening with Codex releases, Supplements, and Dataslates.

Though DLC stops feeling like a good idea around the point where content was obviously cut from the initial release (or left locked on the disc in some cases!) so that it could be released later to wring out a bit more cash.

I've still got the 2E Chaos codex on a shelf somewhere, and it has three variant lists (Red Corsairs, Daemon World, Chaos Cult) also in it for no extra cost over other codexes of the time. Wonder what that package would cost me these days?

That's easy. $40 USD each on top of the $50 codex.

Correction - zero, cos' they won't be doing those lists any time soon suckaz!