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 Kanluwen wrote:
I fail to see an issue when you have a fairly hefty stable of characters. Just build around that?

It's not like you're having to stick within 3" of an item only five specific units can purchase.




You fail to see the Issue when:

1. You most have a Mono Faction Army
2. You must have Mono Dynasty Army
3. You must have a Character with Noble Keyword as your Warlord
4. You must pick the Protocols and order them before the game starts
5. You must be within 6 of a character to receive the bonus
6. You must have at least one model with the Noble Keyword on the battlefield, or lose access to protocols completely.

If you "Fail" to see why there is an issue here with how this is executed, then anyone here should just dismiss you opinion on this subject entirely.

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Right behind you.

I literally have to meet most of (no Protocol equivalent) those requirements to use Regiment bonuses or Orders to their full potential...so maybe that's why I'm not seeing an issue?

I'm already used to having to play a single Regiment with Officers and spacing for Vox-Casters to be usable by my Officers(they require being within 3" of either an Infantry, Veteran, or Command Squad with a Vox) and keeping Officers alive to keep Orders going.

I view this as you getting to trigger something that turns your non-Noble characters into buffbots and I would kill for this for my Guard.
   
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 Kanluwen wrote:
I literally have to meet most of (no Protocol equivalent) those requirements to use Regiment bonuses or Orders to their full potential...so maybe that's why I'm not seeing an issue?

I'm already used to having to play a single Regiment with Officers and spacing for Vox-Casters to be usable by my Officers(they require being within 3" of either an Infantry, Veteran, or Command Squad with a Vox) and keeping Officers alive to keep Orders going.

I view this as you getting to trigger something that turns your non-Noble characters into buffbots and I would kill for this for my Guard.


And how much do your officers cost compared to Necron Characters? How many are in other slots besides the HQ slot? It looks like you have ways of extending them to 18' with upgrades and I'm sure you have way more models with the Officer Keyword in a typical IG list than I do Overlords.

Do you really not understand how different the armies are, and how this puts much bigger constraints on Necrons?

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Maximally buffed doesn't mean most efficient. 20% boost to a unit is worthless if it loses you the game.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

If the game is to have tactics then you have to be given choices rather than lists to maximise. Knowing when to leave the auras is a huge part of 40K tactics.

Monofaction and Dynasty are intended, so raising that as an issue is clearly you missing the point. You take other factions or subfactions for use over what your mono-choice gives you.

It's a choice. Does it bring something worthwhile compared to getting the most buffs per unit? Up to you to value.
   
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Tacoma, WA, USA

 Sasori wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
I literally have to meet most of (no Protocol equivalent) those requirements to use Regiment bonuses or Orders to their full potential...so maybe that's why I'm not seeing an issue?

I'm already used to having to play a single Regiment with Officers and spacing for Vox-Casters to be usable by my Officers(they require being within 3" of either an Infantry, Veteran, or Command Squad with a Vox) and keeping Officers alive to keep Orders going.

I view this as you getting to trigger something that turns your non-Noble characters into buffbots and I would kill for this for my Guard.


And how much do your officers cost compared to Necron Characters? How many are in other slots besides the HQ slot? It looks like you have ways of extending them to 18' with upgrades and I'm sure you have way more models with the Officer Keyword in a typical IG list than I do Overlords.

Do you really not understand how different the armies are, and how this puts much bigger constraints on Necrons?
An Necron character are more effective, so point to Necrons?

As for slots, you must mean the Platoon Commander that nobody uses? I'm sure there will be more Nobles in the Necron list than just Overlords.

I find it rather amusing you are complaining about having to hug a character for an aura, as if every army isn't doing that.
   
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As a Necron player, I like the change. I like the idea of a royal court leading the legions, and I find an army that relies on synergy and protecting characters to be fun. It's also premature to say IG have more characters with the officer keyword, as we don't know who or what has the noble keyword yet do we? Necrons have always had a surplus of HQ choices, so I'm not all that concerned.

I also play IG, where officers have very little use outside of orders, so although they're a lot cheaper than an Overlord or Royal Warden, they're also a lot less practical. Their role is to use orders to rush my infantry into the meat grinder and then heroically throw themselves at something in a hail Mary to tie it up in combat.

   
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Right behind you.

 Sasori wrote:

And how much do your officers cost compared to Necron Characters?

How many Necron characters only offer their buff rather than having wargear that can actually make a meaningful contribution to the tide of the game?

Your characters are more expensive, but they're also not T3 with a 5+/5++ and just a pistol+frag grenades.
How many are in other slots besides the HQ slot?

One. And it's in Elite, which is a packed bucket for Guard.
And it only applies to running <Regiment>, not Tempestus.

You want to run Tempestus? You have one Officer in the form of the Tempestor Prime.
It looks like you have ways of extending them to 18' with upgrades

This is why I specifically mentioned voxes in my post. Because that's how you extend them...and just five units have voxes. Scion and Scion Command Squads, Infantry Squads, Veteran Squads, and Command Squads. Two of those(Scion+Scion Command Squads) can't benefit from <Regiment>. And remember that it's a one-way benefit. An Officer within 3" of a unit with a Vox can Order a unit 18" away...provided that unit has a vox-caster.

There's a stratagem for Chimeras to count as having Voxes for the Officer issuing Orders but that doesn't change the initial unit needing to have it.
and I'm sure you have way more models with the Officer Keyword in a typical IG list than I do Overlords.

Sure, but do you really think just the Overlord will have the Noble keyword?

Do you really not understand how different the armies are, and how this puts much bigger constraints on Necrons?

It means you don't play as aggressively with your Noble keyworded characters and as an exchange any and all of your characters get to produce an aura in addition to anything they had to start with.
   
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Chillicothe, OH

 alextroy wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
I literally have to meet most of (no Protocol equivalent) those requirements to use Regiment bonuses or Orders to their full potential...so maybe that's why I'm not seeing an issue?

I'm already used to having to play a single Regiment with Officers and spacing for Vox-Casters to be usable by my Officers(they require being within 3" of either an Infantry, Veteran, or Command Squad with a Vox) and keeping Officers alive to keep Orders going.

I view this as you getting to trigger something that turns your non-Noble characters into buffbots and I would kill for this for my Guard.


And how much do your officers cost compared to Necron Characters? How many are in other slots besides the HQ slot? It looks like you have ways of extending them to 18' with upgrades and I'm sure you have way more models with the Officer Keyword in a typical IG list than I do Overlords.

Do you really not understand how different the armies are, and how this puts much bigger constraints on Necrons?
An Necron character are more effective, so point to Necrons?

As for slots, you must mean the Platoon Commander that nobody uses? I'm sure there will be more Nobles in the Necron list than just Overlords.

I find it rather amusing you are complaining about having to hug a character for an aura, as if every army isn't doing that.


I love this argument. "You mean the X unit that nobody uses?" Just because you dont use it or have something better does not mean it's not good.... or that other armies would love to have something similar.

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Tastyfish wrote: Maximally buffed doesn't mean most efficient. 20% boost to a unit is worthless if it loses you the game.

Don't let perfect be the enemy of good.

If the game is to have tactics then you have to be given choices rather than lists to maximise. Knowing when to leave the auras is a huge part of 40K tactics.

Monofaction and Dynasty are intended, so raising that as an issue is clearly you missing the point. You take other factions or subfactions for use over what your mono-choice gives you.

It's a choice. Does it bring something worthwhile compared to getting the most buffs per unit? Up to you to value.


Right now both Space Marines and Sisters of Battle get their mono-faction bonus by simply having the appropriate keywords in the army. This amount limitations has only been imposed on Necrons so far.

alextroy wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
 Kanluwen wrote:
I literally have to meet most of (no Protocol equivalent) those requirements to use Regiment bonuses or Orders to their full potential...so maybe that's why I'm not seeing an issue?

I'm already used to having to play a single Regiment with Officers and spacing for Vox-Casters to be usable by my Officers(they require being within 3" of either an Infantry, Veteran, or Command Squad with a Vox) and keeping Officers alive to keep Orders going.

I view this as you getting to trigger something that turns your non-Noble characters into buffbots and I would kill for this for my Guard.


And how much do your officers cost compared to Necron Characters? How many are in other slots besides the HQ slot? It looks like you have ways of extending them to 18' with upgrades and I'm sure you have way more models with the Officer Keyword in a typical IG list than I do Overlords.

Do you really not understand how different the armies are, and how this puts much bigger constraints on Necrons?
An Necron character are more effective, so point to Necrons?

As for slots, you must mean the Platoon Commander that nobody uses? I'm sure there will be more Nobles in the Necron list than just Overlords.

I find it rather amusing you are complaining about having to hug a character for an aura, as if every army isn't doing that.


I'm not complaining just about the Aura, the Aura would be fine if it did not have all the other limitations stapled to it. Being able to snipe an Overlord (the only model with the Noble Keyword currently) and remove access to the entire rule is a silly limitation. Having to pick the order before the game starts is a silly limitation.

The Aura would not be an issue if for instance you got to pick them, and didn't have to worry that loosing one character looses access to the rules.

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 Sasori wrote:
I'm not complaining just about the Aura, the Aura would be fine if it did not have all the other limitations stapled to it. Being able to snipe an Overlord (the only model with the Noble Keyword currently) and remove access to the entire rule is a silly limitation. Having to pick the order before the game starts is a silly limitation.

The Aura would not be an issue if for instance you got to pick them, and didn't have to worry that loosing one character looses access to the rules.
So you are complaining about an assumption about the rules. I hate to say it, but you should probably wait for the codex and see if your fear is real.
   
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Right behind you.

 Sasori wrote:

Right now both Space Marines and Sisters of Battle get their mono-faction bonus by simply having the appropriate keywords in the army. This amount limitations has only been imposed on Necrons so far.

"So far" being the operative statement there.


I'm not complaining just about the Aura, the Aura would be fine if it did not have all the other limitations stapled to it. Being able to snipe an Overlord (the only model with the Noble Keyword currently) and remove access to the entire rule is a silly limitation. Having to pick the order before the game starts is a silly limitation.

The Aura would not be an issue if for instance you got to pick them, and didn't have to worry that loosing one character looses access to the rules.

You do pick the Aura though?
Warhammer Community wrote:If your army of Necrons all hails from the same dynasty and is led by a Character with the Noble keyword, then at the start of the game, you can secretly assign one of six command protocols to utilise during each battle round. After revealing your selected command protocol, you’ll need to choose which directive you will activate. Any of your units within 6″ of your Characters will then benefit from that directive. With careful strategy and forethought, command protocols can really throw off your opponent while giving you a massive advantage.


And it's not 'losing one character loses access to the rules'. It's 'losing all of your characters with that keyword loses access to the rules'.

I get the downsides more than you seem to understand I do, but this setup is impressive given that you get a free aura stacked on top of other auras as long as you have a Noble keyworded unit on the field.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 00:47:13


 
   
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 alextroy wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
I'm not complaining just about the Aura, the Aura would be fine if it did not have all the other limitations stapled to it. Being able to snipe an Overlord (the only model with the Noble Keyword currently) and remove access to the entire rule is a silly limitation. Having to pick the order before the game starts is a silly limitation.

The Aura would not be an issue if for instance you got to pick them, and didn't have to worry that loosing one character looses access to the rules.
So you are complaining about an assumption about the rules. I hate to say it, but you should probably wait for the codex and see if your fear is real.


This is the information that was provided on the community site on how they function and that lined up with what was in the White Dwarf battle report.There is no reason right now to believe it's going to be substantially different in the codex from the information we have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Sasori wrote:

Right now both Space Marines and Sisters of Battle get their mono-faction bonus by simply having the appropriate keywords in the army. This amount limitations has only been imposed on Necrons so far.

"So far" being the operative statement there.


I'm not complaining just about the Aura, the Aura would be fine if it did not have all the other limitations stapled to it. Being able to snipe an Overlord (the only model with the Noble Keyword currently) and remove access to the entire rule is a silly limitation. Having to pick the order before the game starts is a silly limitation.

The Aura would not be an issue if for instance you got to pick them, and didn't have to worry that loosing one character looses access to the rules.

You do pick the Aura though?
Warhammer Community wrote:If your army of Necrons all hails from the same dynasty and is led by a Character with the Noble keyword, then at the start of the game, you can secretly assign one of six command protocols to utilise during each battle round. After revealing your selected command protocol, you’ll need to choose which directive you will activate. Any of your units within 6″ of your Characters will then benefit from that directive. With careful strategy and forethought, command protocols can really throw off your opponent while giving you a massive advantage.


And it's not 'losing one character loses access to the rules'. It's 'losing all of your characters with that keyword loses access to the rules'.

I get the downsides more than you seem to understand I do, but this setup is impressive given that you get a free aura stacked on top of other auras as long as you have a Noble keyworded unit on the field.


What I meant by pick, was pick on the turn instead of having to select the order at the start of the game.

Yes, it is true you have to kill all the characters with the Noble keyword to remove the bonus. It is not confirmed what will be getting that keyword, yet, so maybe I'm a bit overzealous about that one. That being said, it's unlikey that Crypteks will get it, which is the character that would make the most difference.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 00:56:10


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This makes me SOOOO happy. I am thinking 2x squads of 10 with a Auto Bolt Rifle with Auxiliary Grenade Launcher, Bolt Pistol, and Thunder Hammer on one dude. They appear to be able to mix Intercessor types (at least Tactical and Assault). They will be pretty brutal.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 01:15:54


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To be fair, Noble will probably go on all HQs as they are all part of the group (whatever it's called where you have the overlord and his retinue) and are all considered Nobles

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 Sasori wrote:
 alextroy wrote:
 Sasori wrote:
I'm not complaining just about the Aura, the Aura would be fine if it did not have all the other limitations stapled to it. Being able to snipe an Overlord (the only model with the Noble Keyword currently) and remove access to the entire rule is a silly limitation. Having to pick the order before the game starts is a silly limitation.

The Aura would not be an issue if for instance you got to pick them, and didn't have to worry that loosing one character looses access to the rules.
So you are complaining about an assumption about the rules. I hate to say it, but you should probably wait for the codex and see if your fear is real.


This is the information that was provided on the community site on how they function and that lined up with what was in the White Dwarf battle report.There is no reason right now to believe it's going to be substantially different in the codex from the information we have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Kanluwen wrote:
 Sasori wrote:

Right now both Space Marines and Sisters of Battle get their mono-faction bonus by simply having the appropriate keywords in the army. This amount limitations has only been imposed on Necrons so far.

"So far" being the operative statement there.


I'm not complaining just about the Aura, the Aura would be fine if it did not have all the other limitations stapled to it. Being able to snipe an Overlord (the only model with the Noble Keyword currently) and remove access to the entire rule is a silly limitation. Having to pick the order before the game starts is a silly limitation.

The Aura would not be an issue if for instance you got to pick them, and didn't have to worry that loosing one character looses access to the rules.

You do pick the Aura though?
Warhammer Community wrote:If your army of Necrons all hails from the same dynasty and is led by a Character with the Noble keyword, then at the start of the game, you can secretly assign one of six command protocols to utilise during each battle round. After revealing your selected command protocol, you’ll need to choose which directive you will activate. Any of your units within 6″ of your Characters will then benefit from that directive. With careful strategy and forethought, command protocols can really throw off your opponent while giving you a massive advantage.


And it's not 'losing one character loses access to the rules'. It's 'losing all of your characters with that keyword loses access to the rules'.

I get the downsides more than you seem to understand I do, but this setup is impressive given that you get a free aura stacked on top of other auras as long as you have a Noble keyworded unit on the field.


What I meant by pick, was pick on the turn instead of having to select the order at the start of the game.

Yes, it is true you have to kill all the characters with the Noble keyword to remove the bonus. It is not confirmed what will be getting that keyword, yet, so maybe I'm a bit overzealous about that one. That being said, it's unlikey that Crypteks will get it, which is the character that would make the most difference.


Not sure How I feel about that.
On one hand I hope this applies to other codexes as well. Would be cool and give sniper units and tactics a job.

on the other I remember my HQs have T3 and 4W at most..

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AngryAngel80 wrote:
I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
 
   
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 Sasori wrote:
Another thing from the WD pages, is that you lose access to protocols if you don't have at least one character on the battlefield with the Noble keyword.

So just add that into the pile of being able to use our special rule. Pretty obnoxious.

Makes sense, since the protocols are auras around Nobles.
   
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 nintura wrote:
To be fair, Noble will probably go on all HQs as they are all part of the group (whatever it's called where you have the overlord and his retinue) and are all considered Nobles


Crypteks doubtful, but I can see Noble going onto Overlords, Lords, and the Catacomb Command Barge. Destroyer Lords maybe? They give themselves over to the destroyer cult, so it could go either way.
   
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Seems unlikely. Edge of Silence already shows the Noble tag for the Overlord, but not for the Royal Warden, Plasmancer or Skorpekh Lord (all of which are HQs).
So they can act as transmitters but can't generate the signal.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/15 04:07:30


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 Sasori wrote:


You fail to see the Issue when:

1. You most have a Mono Faction Army
2. You must have Mono Dynasty Army
3. You must have a Character with Noble Keyword as your Warlord
4. You must pick the Protocols and order them before the game starts
5. You must be within 6 of a character to receive the bonus
6. You must have at least one model with the Noble Keyword on the battlefield, or lose access to protocols completely.

If you "Fail" to see why there is an issue here with how this is executed, then anyone here should just dismiss you opinion on this subject entirely.


Ok, so, this is amusing to me, and I felt the silly need to address this specific list of requirements.

1: Mono Faction is absolutely not necessary to list. Who even uses other factions with their Necrons?
2: Mono Dynasty is also very very easy to do, especially now that it costs extra to bring multiple detachments.
3: While we don't know exactly which characters will also be "Noble" keywords, it seems safe to assume that Lords of all flavors, Overlords, and basically any Character that isn't a Cryptek will be a Noble. That sets this as a very low bar.
4: This is the first requirement you've listed that could be "difficult", but honestly that challenge is what's going to make it fun and interesting for a lot of players (like me). It shouldn't take long for Necron players to get the feel for how these will work out.
5: Within 6" of a character to receive the bonus is... honestly, not terrible. Last couple editions, we had to be within 3" of a single character to get a single buff. This doubles that, while also greatly increasing the character options we use for this ability. Not actually all that bad, even if not ideal.
6: See point 3, and then consider how easy it is likely to be to have a Noble on the battlefield.

These requirements already fall in line with how I usually built lists and played games, which I have had no small amount of success with.

Lastly, stating that we should dismiss that persons opinion entirely is uncalled for. You disagree with them, sure, but that doesn't mean that no one else will agree with them. Learn to adapt. Necrons are crotchety old space robo-corpses, yet they can adapt. Be like them.
   
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3: While we don't know exactly which characters will also be "Noble" keywords, it seems safe to assume that Lords of all flavors, Overlords, and basically any Character that isn't a Cryptek will be a Noble. That sets this as a very low bar.

Its very obviously not safe to assume that, as we have two non-cryptek characters in a current publication who don't have that keyword alongside one that does.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 04:30:06


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Voss wrote:
3: While we don't know exactly which characters will also be "Noble" keywords, it seems safe to assume that Lords of all flavors, Overlords, and basically any Character that isn't a Cryptek will be a Noble. That sets this as a very low bar.

Its very obviously not safe to assume that, as we have two non-cryptek characters in a current publication who don't have that keyword alongside one that does.


We also have the plasmacyte as a unit member when its been reported they're a character in the dex. Things change between publications.
   
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My main concern is necrons are going to be very vulnerable to sniper spam. I actually had to deal with that a lot in 8th when playing necrons and now necron characters have an even bigger target on their back. At T5 with a 3+/4++ and maybe 5 wounds at best they're not the most durable.
   
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Necronmaniac05 wrote:
My main concern is necrons are going to be very vulnerable to sniper spam. I actually had to deal with that a lot in 8th when playing necrons and now necron characters have an even bigger target on their back. At T5 with a 3+/4++ and maybe 5 wounds at best they're not the most durable.


Maybe this is the thinking behind the Cryptothralls, give the Cryptek a little extra defence?

Also looks like Lychguard, especially with the 5+++, could be some good character protection now too depending on how the RP rules shake out...
   
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Necronmaniac05 wrote:
My main concern is necrons are going to be very vulnerable to sniper spam. I actually had to deal with that a lot in 8th when playing necrons and now necron characters have an even bigger target on their back. At T5 with a 3+/4++ and maybe 5 wounds at best they're not the most durable.


What do you count as durable? Guard stat lines must be a shock for you.
   
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Dudeface wrote:
Necronmaniac05 wrote:
My main concern is necrons are going to be very vulnerable to sniper spam. I actually had to deal with that a lot in 8th when playing necrons and now necron characters have an even bigger target on their back. At T5 with a 3+/4++ and maybe 5 wounds at best they're not the most durable.


What do you count as durable? Guard stat lines must be a shock for you.


yeaah 3+/4++ 5 wounds and RP makes for a HQ tougher then a marine captain.

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BrianDavion wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Necronmaniac05 wrote:
My main concern is necrons are going to be very vulnerable to sniper spam. I actually had to deal with that a lot in 8th when playing necrons and now necron characters have an even bigger target on their back. At T5 with a 3+/4++ and maybe 5 wounds at best they're not the most durable.


What do you count as durable? Guard stat lines must be a shock for you.


yeaah 3+/4++ 5 wounds and RP makes for a HQ tougher then a marine captain.


Depends on the tag of the price associated. (in pts and opportunity cost, in this case HQ slots)
25 pts with SV 4 and 5++ is alot more durable then say 200 pts Sv 3+ 5++ 5+++.
of course this is an issue in regards to W and price associated with the further defensive profile and has further implications torwards units that are cheaper and therefore get easier to hit with Ro3 which then makes them overall ess tough again.

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 Daedalus81 wrote:

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Not Online!!! wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
Necronmaniac05 wrote:
My main concern is necrons are going to be very vulnerable to sniper spam. I actually had to deal with that a lot in 8th when playing necrons and now necron characters have an even bigger target on their back. At T5 with a 3+/4++ and maybe 5 wounds at best they're not the most durable.


What do you count as durable? Guard stat lines must be a shock for you.


yeaah 3+/4++ 5 wounds and RP makes for a HQ tougher then a marine captain.


Depends on the tag of the price associated. (in pts and opportunity cost, in this case HQ slots)
25 pts with SV 4 and 5++ is alot more durable then say 200 pts Sv 3+ 5++ 5+++.
of course this is an issue in regards to W and price associated with the further defensive profile and has further implications torwards units that are cheaper and therefore get easier to hit with Ro3 which then makes them overall ess tough again.

'
true the MFM lists the Overlord from Indomatus as 90 points, and a naked marine captain is 80. that could change but my gut feeling is it'll be more or less right. shifting maybe 5-10 points tops.

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Necronmaniac05 wrote:
My main concern is necrons are going to be very vulnerable to sniper spam. I actually had to deal with that a lot in 8th when playing necrons and now necron characters have an even bigger target on their back. At T5 with a 3+/4++ and maybe 5 wounds at best they're not the most durable.


While it's certainly not ideal, and costs points that we might want to put somewhere else, Lychguard have proven themselves time and time again as quality character protectors.
Best case scenario, you lose a few Lychguard as someone tries to snipe out a character, worst case scenario you lose that entire unit of Lychguard. And if they're sword & board, that can take a lot of work for your opponent.
   
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Just as something from the preview, it appears that the higher level of HQs (Chief Libby, Master of the Forge, etc.) are going to be something you have to pay points rather than CP for.

Do we think that this will be a concept that is used elsewhere, allowing for such things as Veteran Intercessors, Weirdboy Warpheads or even, dare I saw it, Trueborn DE Warriors, to re-enter the game via points rather than via CP expenditure?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/15 15:36:15


   
 
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