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I have seen entire threads and posts dedicated to why Orks should be nerfed. Not sure why (as an Ork player) so why don't you all have a huge scrap about it and who ever is left standing is correct (like a good old fashioned Ork debate!). Either try and change my mind or try to tell me I'm not insane.

Orkz need to be redesigned from the ground up. While the faction as a whole is home to a stellar list of horribly overpriced and under-performing units, the simple Ork Boy represents the very worst of 8th edition's horde bias.

Assuming nothing is done to properly handle how broken hordes are right now, the Ork leadership system needs to be redesigned so that oceans of Boyz are not the be-all-end-all of the game.

Currently Boyz are amazing and everything else is kind of trash.

What needs to happen is that all the other units get buffed up to a decent standard, which could probably be done mostly with Clan traits and strats, and Boyz get a bit of a knock down.

So yes, one unit does need a nerf, but loads of others need improving or that will make Orks the worst army in the game.

Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

If Orks get the usual boost that a codex gives them (relics, stratagems, cost reductions, etc.), but normal Boyz remain as they are (or worse, get cheaper), it'll be the most unstoppable army in the game.

Way too many auras/bubbles/boosts were designed for the Ork army without due consideration to all of them being bundled together over hundreds of models.

I mean, they got an extra attack at base and I'm pretty sure they have a permanent S4 (which to be fair they should've had last edition). You make Trukks an appropriate price and there really would be much to do against them.

I don't know... a lot of our buffs are just 6 up feel no pains. I don't see buffs are the problem. The 5 up invulnerable is hard to put over more than 30 boyz because of the fact everyone needs to be within the bubble or it doesn't work.

Stuff like the warboss trait is needed because of the 5" movement. I've seen some armies gun down 30 or 60 ork boyz a turn so i never see them as op.

Ork boyz are not amazing, not at all. Even when they have 6 attacks each. In the reality ork boyz will likely have 3 attacks due to the fact that they surely suffer casualties before charging and weridboyz with warpath and ghaz (the tho buffers that give +1A) won't give tons of attacks usually. The weirdboy in fact usually gives +1A 1 or 2 times per game since you should probably want to smite and assaulting stuff isn't that easy. And ghaz is a footslogging dude. Not that orks with 6 attacks each means paying for a blob of 20+ dudes (not a problem, you may want the horde anyway) but also 62 points for a weirdboy (but usually da jump is way more usueful and having 2 psykers may be ok, definitely not mandatory though) and ghaz is another 215 points. A massive investment of points when having more bodies is usually a better choice.

Ork boyz are 6+ save guys with basically no shooting, in an edition in which pretty much everyone has cheap screeners to stop the close combat monsters. And any TAC list is able to kill 30 buffed boyz per turn, even 60 without KFF and painboy auras.

Simply, don't take 25 lascannons and 45 dark reapers. Orks deserve to be improved, and improved a lot.


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 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. We're talking about max 4 attacks per boy without HQs bonuses. Blood claws have 3 attacks each on the charge. Drukhari wyches have 3 attacks each with the drug, which is the standard drug a player should give them, genestealers have 3 base plus 1 if the unit is 10+ models. 3-4 attacks each are quite standard for close combat oriented troops that actually are supposed to be able to fight and have little shooting or no shooting at all.

I'd argue that there's no excuse to negate some invuln in close combat for orks like imperium storm shields. And only characters and sargents (nobz) can take melee special weapons while SM can have units with basic dudes armed with effective melee weapons. Orks melee output is definitely overrated at the moment, they don't need to be nerfed in any possible way.

I really haven't seen a lot of threads about nerfing Orks. Where are those?

I personally don't see it happening. Orks are in a pretty weak state right now. And while boyz dish out damage in CC, they have a 5" movement, a 6+ save, and are too inexpensive to fit in transports.

Regards

 Blackie wrote:
Ork boyz are not amazing, not at all. Even when they have 6 attacks each. In the reality ork boyz will likely have 3 attacks due to the fact that they surely suffer casualties before charging and weridboyz with warpath and ghaz (the tho buffers that give +1A) won't give tons of attacks usually. The weirdboy in fact usually gives +1A 1 or 2 times per game since you should probably want to smite and assaulting stuff isn't that easy. And ghaz is a footslogging dude. Not that orks with 6 attacks each means paying for a blob of 20+ dudes (not a problem, you may want the horde anyway) but also 62 points for a weirdboy (but usually da jump is way more usueful and having 2 psykers may be ok, definitely not mandatory though) and ghaz is another 215 points. A massive investment of points when having more bodies is usually a better choice.

Ork boyz are 6+ save guys with basically no shooting, in an edition in which pretty much everyone has cheap screeners to stop the close combat monsters. And any TAC list is able to kill 30 buffed boyz per turn, even 60 without KFF and painboy auras.

Simply, don't take 25 lascannons and 45 dark reapers. Orks deserve to be improved, and improved a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. I'd argue that there's no excuse to negate some invuln in close combat for orks like imperium storm shields. And only characters and sargents (nobz) can take melee special weapons while SM can have units with basic dudes armed with effective melee weapons. Orks melee output is definitely overrated at the moment, they don't need to be nerfed in any possible way.

Nope. That's not remotely reasonable. Don't even start with that nonsense.

 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.

I'll echo those who've said Boyz themselves could use a minor nerf, but only if the rest of the faction is brought up by a good amount.

...u wat mate?

pismakron wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.

Eh try again custodes are the best in the 40K universe right now.

Orks need some depth of playability but green tide realy needs to avoid being jacked in power level untill they rofl stomping everyone.

 Elbows wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Ork boyz are not amazing, not at all. Even when they have 6 attacks each. In the reality ork boyz will likely have 3 attacks due to the fact that they surely suffer casualties before charging and weridboyz with warpath and ghaz (the tho buffers that give +1A) won't give tons of attacks usually. The weirdboy in fact usually gives +1A 1 or 2 times per game since you should probably want to smite and assaulting stuff isn't that easy. And ghaz is a footslogging dude. Not that orks with 6 attacks each means paying for a blob of 20+ dudes (not a problem, you may want the horde anyway) but also 62 points for a weirdboy (but usually da jump is way more usueful and having 2 psykers may be ok, definitely not mandatory though) and ghaz is another 215 points. A massive investment of points when having more bodies is usually a better choice.

Ork boyz are 6+ save guys with basically no shooting, in an edition in which pretty much everyone has cheap screeners to stop the close combat monsters. And any TAC list is able to kill 30 buffed boyz per turn, even 60 without KFF and painboy auras.

Simply, don't take 25 lascannons and 45 dark reapers. Orks deserve to be improved, and improved a lot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

What are you talking about? The basic ork boy should definitely have more attacks that imperium CC units, which are usually clumsy dudes with huge armors. Orks live for punching people, they'd defintely deserve tons of low strength no ap attacks. I'd argue that there's no excuse to negate some invuln in close combat for orks like imperium storm shields. And only characters and sargents (nobz) can take melee special weapons while SM can have units with basic dudes armed with effective melee weapons. Orks melee output is definitely overrated at the moment, they don't need to be nerfed in any possible way.

Nope. That's not remotely reasonable. Don't even start with that nonsense.

What's the nonsense? I don't see any reason why nobz, meganobz and especially warbosses can't have and invuln in close combat like pretty much every standard SM unit can have. SW wolf lords have a belt (!!!!!) that gives them a 4+ invuln, and it's not even an upgrade, it's standard wargear for stock dudes. That's a nonsense, considering that they can have a 3+ invuln for what? 15 points?


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Ice_can wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.

Eh try again custodes are the best in the 40K universe right now.

Orks need some depth of playability but green tide realy needs to avoid being jacked in power level untill they rofl stomping everyone.

The're not stomping anyone, please, unless you want to play with 15-20 models. In that case, it's your problem if you can't manage an horde.

I'm on the Orks are weak except for boys bandwagon.
My reasons and I know they aren't absolutes and your mileage may vary.
The argument that boyz die fast etc etc makes sense against "normal" builds. Yes, you can wipe out 30-60 boyz in a good shooting phase...but the 6-10 mobs of 30 boyz (I know, that's a LOT of your points, but stop spending all those extra points for nobs and weapons...you aren't shooting for crap anyway! Buy nobs for the second rank of your charge only...) is the problem, particularly if they get first turn (I know, less than half the time...so don't waste breath)
Standard Horde issues. If you can't get a line of say 8 ork mobs of 30 models into CC (that's somewhere around 1600 points so I do hear you...) by turn 2 with massive numbers of attacks, you're a terrible player (and please on the 5" move...their move is NOT 5" it is 5" +1d6). That second rank of 120 boyz should hit at near full strength and be charging multiple enemy units even if your opponent got two rounds of shooting and killed 30-60 boys each round.

If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).

Now, to all the players who want to run orks as something other than a human wave (hmmm greenskin wave?) assault, I absolutely hear you and they need a lot of help.

edwardmyst wrote:
If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).

Agreed. Boyz dying to a well played gunline is not a mark against Boyz. Melee hordes SHOULD die to gunline, that's all part of the rock paper scissors of the game. The problem here is that the tools that Orks should have to help deal with the gunlines are not effective.

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Ice_can wrote:

pismakron wrote:

 Elbows wrote:
Simply put, there is zero excuse for a cheap tough model to possibly have 4-5 attacks in close combat when dedicated "best in the Universe" can't manage 2-3.

The "best in the universe" has a basic statline of WS 3+, S4, A2 just like boyz. Granted, Intercessors are much better at shooting and has actual armor, but they are also a lot more expensive.

Eh try again custodes are the best in the 40K universe right now.

Orks need some depth of playability but green tide realy needs to avoid being jacked in power level untill they rofl stomping everyone.

The're not stomping anyone, please, unless you want to play with 15-20 models. In that case, it's your problem if you can't manage an horde.

The usual problem with orks this edition, same as in 6th and in 7th edition, is that the only "viable" way to play competitively is to play a green tide and run 150+ ork boyz, 100 Stormboyz, etc.

As much as I love orks, I hate to say that I really don't care to move that many infantry models every turn, much less paint that many boyz. Nevermind spending that much money on infantry boxes. What I'd really love is for everything else in the ork army list to at least have the potential to win games.

Ice_can wrote:


If you check the quote I didn't say they were stomping everyone currently. I said they need to avoid buffing green tide while improving the rest of the codex.

With no templates or modifiers for unit size on most weapons, hordes are not very well balanced in 8th thats an 8th problem not an ork issue.

I understand, I meant that orks are not going to stomp anyone, even with a codex that buffs the current boyz.

Even with tons of attacks each their damage output is not amazing. First, you actually have to reach combat, then some of your dudes won't be able to fight because getting 20+ models into combat is usually impossible. S4 hits with no ap do very little against armored stuff, and nobz don't have them math to make the difference. Seriously I don't see the issue for boyz having 2-4 attacks base and up to 6 each with the appropriate buffs. They're not going to be top tiers with a green tide, it's an overreaction.


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Stux wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).

Agreed. Boyz dying to a well played gunline is not a mark against Boyz. Melee hordes SHOULD die to gunline, that's all part of the rock paper scissors of the game. The problem here is that the tools that Orks should have to help deal with the gunlines are not effective.

I strongly disagree with that. Even the most effective gunlines shouldn't be able to wipe out an horde. They should have equal chances anyway. In fact a melee horde should be an efficient tool to deal with gunlines since all the anti tank will be wasted.

Generally speaking shooting in 40k should be toned down a lot. TAC armies that can melt armored stuff AND hordes with average rolls should never exist.

 Blackie wrote:
.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Stux wrote:

edwardmyst wrote:
If you routinely play a gunline opponent who sets his models up on his very table edge every game and never moves, than there's problems for your boyz. But that tactic has issues as it is in game balance anyway, and scenarios etc should be making them do some variety in placement and movement at least. The gunline has its places and is a tactic, yes, but shouldn't be the majority of your opponents (deep strike alpha seems to be).

Agreed. Boyz dying to a well played gunline is not a mark against Boyz. Melee hordes SHOULD die to gunline, that's all part of the rock paper scissors of the game. The problem here is that the tools that Orks should have to help deal with the gunlines are not effective.

I strongly disagree with that. Even the most effective gunlines shouldn't be able to wipe out an horde. They should have equal chances anyway. In fact a melee horde should be an efficient tool to deal with gunlines since all the anti tank will be wasted.

Generally speaking shooting in 40k should be toned down a lot. TAC armies that can melt armored stuff AND hordes with average rolls should never exist.

Maybe not wipe them out, but they should do very significant damage to them. I'm not talking about heavy weapons here, they should not be efficient against hordes, I'm talking a gunline built for anti horde.

I think shooting needs to be better in the abstract than melee, because once you get to melee you are usually stuck there and the melee unit will win. The shooting unit only has a limited window before that happens to stand a chance of winning. In my opinion you should have to use specialised units to disrupt the gunline to have a chance of getting your melee units in more or less unscathed.

Orks have such a characterful collection of units available that it’s a crime for only one main unit to be viable if you want to win (variations of boyz).

From what I read, nids codex has to be the benchmark with pretty much everything viable / competitive. Just feels like it represents the most fun for everyone to field/face loads of different list variations.

I also suspect it’s hellishly difficult to achieve this!

Heavy Bolters totally shred Ork Boyz.
The only reason why Ork Boyz lists are so powerfull is because in a meta build around taking a ton of anti tank to kill giant monsters, they are a list with normally only horde. And , unlike Tyranids or IG, the little guys aren't just chaff, they are the ones that do the damage, that do the heavy lifting of the lists.

Thats why they appear to be more powerfull that what they really are. Orks die in droves to morale, because they just die in droves. Kill 15 ork boyz in one mob, and that mob is gone. And to kill 15 boyz is extremely easy if you have a bit of anti horde like Assault Cannons or Heavy Bolters.


You have the priorities completely backwards. In abstrac meele should be better than shoting because is much harder to reach meele reliably than to shoot things. (And I'm a Tau player). Even more in 8th with things like falling back, Fly, etc...

You can take attacks from the boyz when half my opponents special rules dont reduce my firepower to a "pointless to even field" level of bs. Some of us enjoyed mixed varied armies, but screw working with a 6 bs alot of games.

Whew. That was an entertaining read.

I've seen very few posts and no threads regarding nerfing Orks.

This is the first thread I've read about it in fact since 8th dropped.

Of course I guess Orks need a nerf though, I mean they just keep winning all those tournaments and they have an answer to everything (except negative hit modifiers, flyers, shooting in general)!

Orks don't need a nerf, we need a buff. As a Speed Freak player my entire army is garbage. I don't want to have to run green tide to be competitive, I want to have flexibility like every other race.

There are far better troops in the game than Ork Boyz. They are T4, 6+ save models. They die to a stiff breeze. Their weapons have no AP.

If you are to nerf Boyz, you had better nerf Bloodletters and Infantry squads while you're at it.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Whew. That was an entertaining read.

I've seen very few posts and no threads regarding nerfing Orks.

This is the first thread I've read about it in fact since 8th dropped.

Of course I guess Orks need a nerf though, I mean they just keep winning all those tournaments and they have an answer to everything (except negative hit modifiers, flyers, shooting in general)!

Orks don't need a nerf, we need a buff. As a Speed Freak player my entire army is garbage. I don't want to have to run green tide to be competitive, I want to have flexibility like every other race.

There are far better troops in the game than Ork Boyz. They are T4, 6+ save models. They die to a stiff breeze. Their weapons have no AP.

If you are to nerf Boyz, you had better nerf Bloodletters and Infantry squads while you're at it.

No joke. In a game in which Orks lost there were genuinely people stood around the table saying orks should never have done that much damage and needed a nerf. I've also seen a lot of people online talk about this and a lot of people say orks should be bad at shooting and need a nerf to melee.

 Galas wrote:

You have the priorities completely backwards. In abstrac meele should be better than shoting because is much harder to reach meele reliably than to shoot things. (And I'm a Tau player). Even more in 8th with things like falling back, Fly, etc...

What I'm saying is that a melee focused army puts a shooty army on a strict clock. The shooty army has to do a certain amount of damage before they are locked in melee or they will definitely lose. It is important that the shooty army has the POTENTIAL to output that damage, though to ensure it they should have to rely on supporting units, such as deepstrikers slowing the advance of the enemy and such, just like the melee army should have to do similar to disrupt the gunline and protect their advance. The skill in strategy is in determining exactly what units will be most effective to do this, and predicting what your opponent's strategy will be too.

Whether melee or shooting should be strongest in the vacuum I suppose isn't really the point. The point is that for the same value in troops, the shooting army should on average be able to reduce the strength of the melee army to the point where the two side's melee abilities are fairly even at the point where they become locked in melee. That would be 'balance' of a sort.

We are talking at the most abstract level here of course, in practice it is far more complicated, as you introduce other units in an attempt to tip the scales in your favour. Ones that are better are killing specific types of enemies, or have abilities that let them do other disruptive things.

Orks are outperforming numerous codex armies at big events.

I wouldn't say they need a nerf, but people saying they're a weak army are flat out lying to you.

In casual settings, maybe 2/3 of my games so far at the local club this year have been against orks. Always close matches and I’ve never felt completely outmatched. I’m interested to read accounts of the contrary.

 Aetare wrote:
In casual settings, maybe 2/3 of my games so far at the local club this year have been against orks. Always close matches and I’ve never felt completely outmatched. I’m interested to read accounts of the contrary.

Out of interest, are these generally hordes of Boyz, or fairly mixed armies, or focusing on spamming something other than Boyz?

Out of interest, are these generally hordes of Boyz, or fairly mixed armies, or focusing on spamming something other than Boyz?

All against boyz in sizable hordes, with some tankbustas thrown in and Thraka.