Horus Heresy / 30K N&R

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**lord_blackfang**

Or a complete medium sized board game

Yet here we are.

Still waiting for that melee sprue, if it exists.

**blood reaper**

Snrub wrote:
Shadow Walker wrote:
Pre-orders https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/06/15/saturday-pre-orders-reinforcements-for-your-legions/
Eww. They want $85 dollarydoos for those new characters. Piss off.

lord_blackfang wrote:
If there's anything tournament tryhards hate, it's uncertainty.
Yeah but feth those guys. They're the group of players we should be listening to least of all.

Sorry casuals, but the competition WILL continue.

**kronk**

Snrub wrote:
What an absolutely deplorable command decal sheet. The fact that for some bizarre reason, they insist on putting Fists and Sons decals on every decal sheet, rather then just making them all entirely generic boggles the mind. They could have filled that sheet with so many good generic bits and pieces and provided players with all the iconography they'd ever need. But instead we get a sheet with a paltry 1/5 generic decals (and uninspired at that!) and the rest is made up of stuff that's largely only usable by 4 of the 18 Legions.

One would have thought that that's what the actual LEGION DECAL SHEETS were for...

My two HH armies are Imperial Fists and Sons of Horus. I have more decals for each than I can shake a superfluous powersword at. In fact, I prefer 3D iconography that I order from PopGoes the Monkey.

I'd put it in the pile to donate to my FLGS.

**Racerguy180**

blood reaper wrote:
Snrub wrote:
Shadow Walker wrote:
Pre-orders https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/06/15/saturday-pre-orders-reinforcements-for-your-legions/
Eww. They want $85 dollarydoos for those new characters. Piss off.

lord_blackfang wrote:
If there's anything tournament tryhards hate, it's uncertainty.
Yeah but feth those guys. They're the group of players we should be listening to least of all.

Sorry casuals, but the competition WILL continue.

Yup, right on the road to hell. Please, please downshift and step on the gas to Speed up the process!!!

**blood reaper**

Racerguy180 wrote:
blood reaper wrote:
Snrub wrote:
Shadow Walker wrote:
Pre-orders https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/06/15/saturday-pre-orders-reinforcements-for-your-legions/
Eww. They want $85 dollarydoos for those new characters. Piss off.

lord_blackfang wrote:
If there's anything tournament tryhards hate, it's uncertainty.
Yeah but feth those guys. They're the group of players we should be listening to least of all.

Sorry casuals, but the competition WILL continue.

Yup, right on the road to hell. Please, please downshift and step on the gas to Speed up the process!!!

The massive chip on the shoulder the anti-competitive vein of the hobby shares is so glaring and revealing.

**JNAProductions**

I don't get the fierce hatred towards competitive gaming.
I can understand bemoaning if everyone at your game store wants to be tournament-level and you'd prefer a more chill time, but tournaments existing is completely fine, as are competitive players.

**Gert**

People who play with a competitive attitude shout the loudest about things they don't like and are the most active in online discussions.

They are also the ones most likely to dump thousands on new stuff after rules changes which in turn leads to the belief that the various rules teams are instructed to shake up the "meta" every so often to maximise sales.
A Guard player with a Tanith-themed army isn't going to drop £180 on new Dorn tanks but a competitive player looking to win tournaments will if the Dorn becomes a top-tier game winner and will spend another £200 when a few months later another previously sub-par unit gets buffed up.

A lot of the core of Heresy is largely made up of people who prefer to play with narrative-themed armies or armies that they built when five Mk4 dudes cost £30 and you waited until you could spend £250 on FW to get free shipping.
It was a very casual side of 40k and people don't like it when their casual fun turns nasty because people want to argue about "meta picks".

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

There were also obnoxious personalities in the competitive scene. A very, very vocal minority, but man were they vocal.

Self proclaimed “elite” gamers. Dubious rules lawyers who figured if you lied often enough it would become the truth.

My Way Is The Only Way types, who proudly proclaimed if you weren’t also meta gaming and bringing the beardiest, cheesiest list you could, you were insulting them personally.

And that coloured views of the Tourny Scene. Certainly I was put off going with my daft, but sometimes powerful, lists, because I had absolutely no desire to pay good money just to be matched against such a “delightful” opponent.

**judgedoug**

Scenario/Narrative play is where it's at, and asymmetric battles are way, way more fun then the modern competitive style of ol' line-em-up-and-shoot unless you're hiding behind the mirror-imaged 90 degree paintball wall.

I personally don't even like points values considering the random-dominant nature of 30k (and most dice-based wargaming in general) and the fact that points values are static and not relative - the ol' example of "why does an anti-tank weapon cost the same points when fielded against an army of nothing but infantry (so has little value) as when fielded against an army of nothing but tanks (so has great value)" - but I understand there's a shared delusion/fiction of points being a "balancing" factor.

**Theophony**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There were also obnoxious personalities in the competitive scene. A very, very vocal minority, but man were they vocal.

Self proclaimed “elite” gamers. Dubious rules lawyers who figured if you lied often enough it would become the truth.

My Way Is The Only Way types, who proudly proclaimed if you weren’t also meta gaming and bringing the beardiest, cheesiest list you could, you were insulting them personally.

And that coloured views of the Tourny Scene. Certainly I was put off going with my daft, but sometimes powerful, lists, because I had absolutely no desire to pay good money just to be matched against such a “delightful” opponent.

Good thing most of them have moved onto politics

Joke....maybe

Local Group had strong attendance for another system and started a tournament. The "Elite Gamers" came in and ruined it for the ones who wanted to sit and chill with the others. I don't think the group has gotten together again in the year since it happened. Interest was wiped out. Unlike above, one guy would borrow models (unpainted) to proxy for other models that neither had. We were pretty laid back about stuff, but we all tried to have painted armies for the tournament since it was being photographed and recorded to try and drum up more players.

**Racerguy180**

blood reaper wrote:
Racerguy180 wrote:
blood reaper wrote:
Snrub wrote:
Shadow Walker wrote:
Pre-orders https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/06/15/saturday-pre-orders-reinforcements-for-your-legions/
Eww. They want $85 dollarydoos for those new characters. Piss off.

lord_blackfang wrote:
If there's anything tournament tryhards hate, it's uncertainty.
Yeah but feth those guys. They're the group of players we should be listening to least of all.

Sorry casuals, but the competition WILL continue.

Yup, right on the road to hell. Please, please downshift and step on the gas to Speed up the process!!!

The massive chip on the shoulder the anti-competitive vein of the hobby shares is so glaring and revealing.

Nope it's more of a doomsday cult thing for me...I don't want to see 40k end up as a glorified Magic The Gathering with cards you need to assemble amd paint.

But if 40k is gonna die I'd rather it be faster than a slow tortured death(which is what the try-hards are doing to it)

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Shame GW are expecting record takings and profits again then, isn’t it?

https://ukinvestormagazine.co.uk/games-workshop-profits-grow-as-momentum-builds/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3F50p3Rkmv2_Dig89mlQHAmBQUWFIG59DtOrFsyka0HixtPshu1QU-4kk_aem_ZmFrZWR1bW15MTZieXRlcw

**MajorWesJanson**

HH does need some balance touches (dreadnoughts, lascannons, blast weapons) but overall can we keep the competitive vs casual and financial topics out of this one?

Do we think that the Magos shown off is going to be fixed to the conversion beamer and other gun as a kit, will it come with a couple other options, or will it be fixed but compatible with a myrmadon secutor/destructor kit for the weapon mounts?

**Snord**

MajorWesJanson wrote:
HH does need some balance touches (dreadnoughts, lascannons, blast weapons) but overall can we keep the competitive vs casual and financial topics out of this one?

Agreed - let's stick to news and rumours, and limit the competitive/narrative debate to the occasional sour comment.

**Irbis**

Thargrim wrote:
I doubt it's just a coincidence that they chose to include Salamanders and Iron Warriors on the sheet. I'm more inclined to believe these rumors now, i'm less keen on a whole new edition though. I was kinda hoping HH would avoid the 3 year churn especially due to the cost of the books. But if plastic mk II ends up being a thing i'll be pretty thrilled.

It makes zero sense in setting, though. Salamanders were so completely trashed in HH to the point they became completely irrelevant and when Vulkan took a trip to Terra during siege no one noticed Salamanders were even there, so low were their numbers. And now you're telling me they would be fighting the biggest traitor legion? What? Is the battle like 500 Iron Warriors lining up to shoot at a single Salamander? Because it's how realistically would look like. Do Salamanders even have any battles of note in the whole HH that weren't them just being sidekicks in one of the shattered legions forces?

Haighus wrote:
even uhlan (Lithuanian origin)

You might want to look this one up because no, just no

And that's without even considering the name pronunciation, unit tactics, gear, and uniforms that were copied all over Europe during Napoleonic wars were pretty much 100% Polish...

**Haighus**

My understanding is uhlans originated as Lithuanian Tatar cavalry and entered Poland via the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth. Not sure why that is problematic here. Poland played a big part in popularising the unit type.

**MajorWesJanson**

I wonder if Salamanders and Iron Warriors were chosen not for fluff reasons but because they both can stand out in model showcases/ advertising. Iron Warriors have the hazard stripes and silver vs the solid colors of sons of horus. Salamanders are green vs yellow imperial fists. Loyalists also have the issue that ultramarines are posters for 40k, ba, wolves, dark Angels also have codexes. Raven guard and Iron hands are hard to tell apart at a distance. White Scars are hard to paint white.

**Platuan4th**

I doubt "hard to paint" is a consideration considering they chose Imperial Fists as a poster army.

**Old-Four-Arms**

Since MkII armor is more associated with the Great Crusade / early Heresy, the mentioned box could also be set in an earlier stage of the Heresy. Isstvan V would make sense for both Sallies and Iron Warriors if the rumor comes true.

**Dryaktylus**

Sooo... Thralls and Thallaxi are sold out. Some other kits too, as expected - and of course no one will buy a resin Triaros after the preview. But now the remaining two Ordinati?

I doubt they were best-sellers, but they're in the Liber Mechanicum... On the other hand, I actually own an Ordinatus. But it's the Sagittar, that they just scrapped without even Legacy rules for HH 2.0.

**Gert**

They'll stay because they're the LoW options. The Legion stuff from FW has been largely replaced by plastic but anything not replaced is still there to buy.

**MajorWesJanson**

Dryaktylus wrote:
Sooo... Thralls and Thallaxi are sold out. Some other kits too, as expected - and of course no one will buy a resin Triaros after the preview. But now the remaining two Ordinati?

I doubt they were best-sellers, but they're in the Liber Mechanicum... On the other hand, I actually own an Ordinatus. But it's the Sagittar, that they just scrapped without even Legacy rules for HH 2.0.

To be fair to the Sagittar, in games with decent people it is just a Ulator but with the gun rules from the Nemesis Volcano cannon instead of the sonic disruptor.

**motheroflies**

Perhaps he came from a warp fissure from 41 millenium to warn humanity to get over itself and just tell the girl its likes from sports practice that it thinks she's really swell? this said perhaps kall based the primaris suits on a now forgotten sub-mark of power armour lost after the crusade...

**MajorWesJanson**

motheroflies wrote:
Perhaps he came from a warp fissure from 41 millenium to warn humanity to get over itself and just tell the girl its likes from sports practice that it thinks she's really swell? this said perhaps kall based the primaris suits on a now forgotten sub-mark of power armour lost after the crusade...

Wrong thread?

**Apologist**

Irbis wrote:
Thargrim wrote:
I doubt it's just a coincidence that they chose to include Salamanders and Iron Warriors on the sheet. I'm more inclined to believe these rumors now, i'm less keen on a whole new edition though. I was kinda hoping HH would avoid the 3 year churn especially due to the cost of the books. But if plastic mk II ends up being a thing i'll be pretty thrilled.

It makes zero sense in setting, though. Salamanders were so completely trashed in HH to the point they became completely irrelevant and when Vulkan took a trip to Terra during siege no one noticed Salamanders were even there, so low were their numbers. And now you're telling me they would be fighting the biggest traitor legion? What? Is the battle like 500 Iron Warriors lining up to shoot at a single Salamander? Because it's how realistically would look like. Do Salamanders even have any battles of note in the whole HH that weren't them just being sidekicks in one of the shattered legions forces?

Perhaps of note is the Foricaan Campaign, mentioned only in the Siege of Cthonia book:

A loyalist fleet of reconstituted fragments of the Salamanders and Iron Hands arrive in the Foricaan System, having abandoned any hope of breaking the traitor blockade of Terra. The loyalists found the system under the control of the Iron Warriors, who were scouring it of resources. However the Iron Warriors were now largely distracted by the imminent Siege of Terra, and their stronghold on Foricaan III was more lightly defended. The loyalists thus struck first, penetrating Foricaan III's orbital defenses by using their fleet led by the Iron Hands Battle Barge Asteronia to run a gauntlet of fire. Due to the automated nature of the orbital defenses, the Iron Hands and Salamanders were able to rapidly make planetfall and establish a beachhead.

Initially, the loyalists encountered little resistance, and the Iron Warriors resorted to setting their own fuel depots ablaze to deny them to the Salamanders and Iron Hands. It also served to shield his forces and create a barrier of pyroclastic hell in order to stall the loyalist advance. Nonetheless, the vengeful sons of Vulkan and Ferrus Manus launched an armored spearhead across a hundred-kilometer wide front, engaging in a brutal and costly battle against the fixed Iron Warriors defenses.

In the tumult of Horus' defeat at Terra, the fate of the Foricaan was forgotten. Whatever side claimed victory there had so few survivors left that it was deemed irrelevant. No banners of either allegiance remained on the world by the time the last fuel depot finally burnt out.

Struck me that this might be a set up for this box. The three legions are conspicuously under-supported in character terms, so a box themed around it would set things up for subsequent FW releases, too.

**Midnightdeathblade**

So I may have missed this here, but am I to understand that the only weapon option that is missing from the Castellax kit (based on the description) is the Siege Wrecker? A single arm? The most attractive weapon option rules-wise?

**Platuan4th**

Correct, the option that already doesn't have an existing model isn't in the box by all indications. Same for the Thallax, it seems.

**Moopy**

JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get the fierce hatred towards competitive gaming.
I can understand bemoaning if everyone at your game store wants to be tournament-level and you'd prefer a more chill time, but tournaments existing is completely fine, as are competitive players.

I've had some bad experiences with these folks. Winning > friendly. The, "I didn't come here to make friends!" bros.

Pro Tip: YOU CAN DO BOTH.

**Midnightdeathblade**

Platuan4th wrote:
Correct, the option that already doesn't have an existing model isn't in the box by all indications. Same for the Thallax, it seems.

But like....put it in the box? Then it has a model lol I don't understand this choice. What was missing for the Thallax?

Oh Multi-Laser

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Moopy wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
I don't get the fierce hatred towards competitive gaming.
I can understand bemoaning if everyone at your game store wants to be tournament-level and you'd prefer a more chill time, but tournaments existing is completely fine, as are competitive players.

I've had some bad experiences with these folks. Winning > friendly. The, "I didn't come here to make friends!" bros.

Pro Tip: YOU CAN DO BOTH.

Many can and do do both (I said do do, heh). But for me? The turn off is the “Play 2 Win” type do exist, and I don’t much fancy paying money to take part in a weekend and run into even one of them.