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daedalus-templarius wrote:

more advanced, a bolter is certainly more boomy, but lacks the range than a long-range rifle has, they don't snipe with bolters.

Just a quick correction: Bolters have a "Sniper Kit", which consists of a Bipod, scope, and silenced rounds. They're not as effective as a designated sniper rifle, mind you, but neither is a BR. It's been mentioned in SM Codi and the Rulebook for a few editions now under the Imperial Weapons sections.

Does anyone else see Spartans as filling a niche between Stormtroopers/Kasrkin and Marines? Sure, a Stormtrooper could take out a Marine, but the odds aren't in his favor (unless you take numbers into account)

metallifan wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:

more advanced, a bolter is certainly more boomy, but lacks the range than a long-range rifle has, they don't snipe with bolters.

Just a quick correction: Bolters have a "Sniper Kit", which consists of a Bipod, scope, and silenced rounds. They're not as effective as a designated sniper rifle, mind you, but neither is a BR. It's been mentioned in SM Codi and the Rulebook for a few editions now under the Imperial Weapons sections.

Heh, I hadn't seen that before, but I wouldn't think an explosive rocket round could have anything 'silenced' about it.

And no, a BR is also not a sniper rifle, but I imagine it has a longer effective range than a bolter, although I could be wrong. How fast do the bolt-projectiles actually travel? is there any fiction on that? They obviously don't travel as fast as a bullet... or maybe they do? Close to gyrojet speed perhaps?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrYv1XAUTv0 automatic shotgun/gyrojet grenade launcher.

Retribution wrote:Does anyone else see Spartans as filling a niche between Stormtroopers/Kasrkin and Marines? Sure, a Stormtrooper could take out a Marine, but the odds aren't in his favor (unless you take numbers into account)

Sounds about right. Slap a hotshot onto a spartan and you've got a killing machine.

daedalus-templarius wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrYv1XAUTv0

That is terrifying.

Er... Quick question. Why are we assuming the Spartan gets a Battle Rifle? It wasn't even developed until some time after the project, to my knowledge.

I'd say an Assault Rifle would be more Spartany, considering it and the SMG are typically the things you see Spartans carrying, and nobody likes the SMG.

For a Spartan to win, he'd have to be at mid range with a weapon suited to that range. At anything closer, bolter tears him apart or Space Marine squeezes him like a beer can.

New situation: How well would a Space Marine with a bolter, a chainsword, and infinite ammo/fuel for those weapons do in the Master Chief's place in getting the index from the Library?

Necroman wrote:New situation: How well would a Space Marine with a bolter, a chainsword, and infinite ammo/fuel for those weapons do in the Master Chief's place in getting the index from the Library?

Not too well Librarians are pretty awesome, they can pretty much melt the SMs brain as soon as he walks in. Plus they would know already since they're psychic.

CRAP! your right! The MA5B assault rifle(yea thats how EPIC it is! I still remember it and its still my favorite gun!) from the first game could PWN a Space Marine into the Eye of Terror and back 100000 times!
You dont' even have to see your target with that gun! Just pull the trigger and get in cover XD

Snikkyd wrote:

Necroman wrote:New situation: How well would a Space Marine with a bolter, a chainsword, and infinite ammo/fuel for those weapons do in the Master Chief's place in getting the index from the Library?

Not too well Librarians are pretty awesome, they can pretty much melt the SMs brain as soon as he walks in. Plus they would know already since they're psychic.

Wrong library?

So all you Pro-Spartans are telling me that a 9.5x40mm round is effective against a Tank, right? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're saying. You're saying that a 9.5x40mm round is going to smash through armour that's as thick and durable as TANK armour. Get real. The Spartans would be a humorous footnote in the history of some Chapter, at BEST. Even on his best day a Spartan couldn't take on a Marine without a 10-1 advantage.

You tout the power of the Spartan Shield... Ok... How many rockets can it take before it goes offline for it's recharge? Probably One, MAYBE a second. Now consider the Marine would *probably* fire more than one or two shots in his opening salvo, and if those rounds connect, which they likely would (You try dodging a miniture cruise-missle), the Spartan can kiss his shield goodbye for a short period of time while the marine plays a refreshing game of "How many bolter rounds can I fit in his head before it caves in on itself and forms a singularity of awesome?"

Nuru, pump the brakes. I'm not saying a Spartan is a match for a Marine, but on a good day, he might just have his shot.

As for the shield, you missed what I said. Yes, his shield can only take one or two shots, but if said Spartan engages the Marine at medium range (just long enough to make the bolter lose accuracy and make use of his range advantage) and jumps in and out of cover to let the shield recharge, he just might have a shot.

Also

So all you Pro-Spartans are telling me that a 9.5x40mm round is effective against a Tank, right? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're saying.

No, that is not EXACTLY what we're saying. A marine is LIKE a tank, but is NOT A TANK, therefore you cannot use a tank for comparisons.

Plus, an M1 Abrams Battle Tank (a pretty tough cookie we can all agree) has an est. 52-64 in. of armor on the front facing (courtesy of Wikipedia) where a Marine has about 6-7 inches solid armor at his thickest point. The helmet however, looks to be about 2-3 inches thick, easily penetratable with modern anti-material rounds, a weaker version of what the spartan is firing. Add in the advanced ceramite/whateverium plating the helmet has, and you've got a helmet that can take a handful of AP rounds but will fail under pressure. As earlier stated, if a lasgun can do it, shouldn't a super-stubber be able to as well?

Nuruhuine wrote:So all you Pro-Spartans are telling me that a 9.5x40mm round is effective against a Tank, right? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're saying. You're saying that a 9.5x40mm round is going to smash through armour that's as thick and durable as TANK armour. Get real. The Spartans would be a humorous footnote in the history of some Chapter, at BEST. Even on his best day a Spartan couldn't take on a Marine without a 10-1 advantage.

You tout the power of the Spartan Shield... Ok... How many rockets can it take before it goes offline for it's recharge? Probably One, MAYBE a second. Now consider the Marine would *probably* fire more than one or two shots in his opening salvo, and if those rounds connect, which they likely would (You try dodging a miniture cruise-missle), the Spartan can kiss his shield goodbye for a short period of time while the marine plays a refreshing game of "How many bolter rounds can I fit in his head before it caves in on itself and forms a singularity of awesome?"

Owned.

the library comment made me lol, he ment the mission in the first halo where its the cheif against swarms and swarms of flood and he has to find the index as the swarm is closing in around him....if a marine was in that spot he probably would only need a bolt pistol, his combat knife and maybe a couple grenades, and thats just for efficiency sake because nothing the flood has would even come close to killing him, but smashing with just hands would get tedious.

The main problem in a library scenario is rocket launchers and a lack of speed. Less speed means more flood swarming the Space Marine, and it means more accuracy for the Flood using rockets. And we all know a Space Marine isn't going to survive a direct rocket hit.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Spike's Deadliest Warrior needs to do Space Marine vs. Spartan Super-Soldier!

Oh, this reminds me, Deadliest warrior's at 8 for us fellas in Edmonton! Nazis are gonna tear vietcong apart!

Anti-Space Marine List

Definite win
-------------
-Daleks
-Anything stronger than a Space Marine in 40k
-Dragonflies

Possible Win
-------------
-Samus

Improbable win
-------------------
-Spartans
-Elites

No Chance in Hell
------------------
-Borg
-Aliens from Alien

Munch Munch! wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Spike's Deadliest Warrior needs to do Space Marine vs. Spartan Super-Soldier!

Oh, this reminds me, Deadliest warrior's at 8 for us fellas in Edmonton! Nazis are gonna tear vietcong apart!

THANK YOU SOOOOO MUCH FOR REMINDING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where I am its at 10 so I haven't missed it....I was so close to crying when I found out I could have missed it


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necroman wrote:

No Chance in Hell

-Aliens from Alien

NO!!!! Maybe not the first movie, but the other movies the Aliens would overwhelm them. Plus, enough acid blood would disinigrate the Space Marine's armour!

sc0ttfree wrote:

Nuruhuine wrote:So all you Pro-Spartans are telling me that a 9.5x40mm round is effective against a Tank, right? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're saying. You're saying that a 9.5x40mm round is going to smash through armour that's as thick and durable as TANK armour. Get real. The Spartans would be a humorous footnote in the history of some Chapter, at BEST. Even on his best day a Spartan couldn't take on a Marine without a 10-1 advantage.

You tout the power of the Spartan Shield... Ok... How many rockets can it take before it goes offline for it's recharge? Probably One, MAYBE a second. Now consider the Marine would *probably* fire more than one or two shots in his opening salvo, and if those rounds connect, which they likely would (You try dodging a miniture cruise-missle), the Spartan can kiss his shield goodbye for a short period of time while the marine plays a refreshing game of "How many bolter rounds can I fit in his head before it caves in on itself and forms a singularity of awesome?"

Owned.

the library comment made me lol, he ment the mission in the first halo where its the cheif against swarms and swarms of flood and he has to find the index as the swarm is closing in around him....if a marine was in that spot he probably would only need a bolt pistol, his combat knife and maybe a couple grenades, and thats just for efficiency sake because nothing the flood has would even come close to killing him, but smashing with just hands would get tedious.

No. Just no. First of all he doesn't know where to hit it. He's gonna aim at that head and blow it off, before saying "Holy feth! It's up again!" Second point, his bolt pistol is eventually going to run out of ammo. Third point, he isn't going to pick up the covenant and UNSC weapons that flood have. He'll say "How can these heretical, unannoited weapons be fit for a servant of the Emperor," a second before he's killed by the flood. Fourth point, melee weapons are largley ineffective against the flood. (five melee hits on easy, if memory serves me correctly)
Long story short: No flood hunting knowledge + inevitable instance of running out of ammo + unwillingness to use inferior enemy weapons + combat knife being absolute crap against flood= dead marine on the floor, ready to turn into flood chow.

Holy crap. A flood-marine? That's scary. But, which is better...

Flood-Marine

OR

Plague Marine

Munch Munch! wrote:

sc0ttfree wrote:

Nuruhuine wrote:So all you Pro-Spartans are telling me that a 9.5x40mm round is effective against a Tank, right? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're saying. You're saying that a 9.5x40mm round is going to smash through armour that's as thick and durable as TANK armour. Get real. The Spartans would be a humorous footnote in the history of some Chapter, at BEST. Even on his best day a Spartan couldn't take on a Marine without a 10-1 advantage.

You tout the power of the Spartan Shield... Ok... How many rockets can it take before it goes offline for it's recharge? Probably One, MAYBE a second. Now consider the Marine would *probably* fire more than one or two shots in his opening salvo, and if those rounds connect, which they likely would (You try dodging a miniture cruise-missle), the Spartan can kiss his shield goodbye for a short period of time while the marine plays a refreshing game of "How many bolter rounds can I fit in his head before it caves in on itself and forms a singularity of awesome?"

Owned.

the library comment made me lol, he ment the mission in the first halo where its the cheif against swarms and swarms of flood and he has to find the index as the swarm is closing in around him....if a marine was in that spot he probably would only need a bolt pistol, his combat knife and maybe a couple grenades, and thats just for efficiency sake because nothing the flood has would even come close to killing him, but smashing with just hands would get tedious.

No. Just no. First of all he doesn't know where to hit it. He's gonna aim at that head and blow it off, before saying "Holy feth! It's up again!" Second point, his bolt pistol is eventually going to run out of ammo. Third point, he isn't going to pick up the covenant and UNSC weapons that flood have. He'll say "How can these heretical, unannoited weapons be fit for a servant of the Emperor," a second before he's killed by the flood. Fourth point, melee weapons are largley ineffective against the flood. (five melee hits on easy, if memory serves me correctly)
Long story short: No flood hunting knowledge + inevitable instance of running out of ammo + unwillingness to use inferior enemy weapons + combat knife being absolute crap against flood= dead marine on the floor, ready to turn into flood chow.

*sob sob*

When you put it into brutal reality like that.
It hurts a little
I'd like to Guardsmen fight the Flood! XD

how are the flood armed with....nothing that can pierce through that amour going to kill him? also when the library thing was posted he said INFINITE AMMO so that doesnt work, also about the no prior knowledge, what about the curse of unbeliief? once the marine saw the similarities he would probably bring up the info on that and just be done with it. Speed? well a marine is easily as fast as a spartan just bulkier but he has better sensors and such to let him know the missles coming before he takes a step to the side cuz only a direct impact would have the slightest chance on piercing that armour

Also about the other weapons i have to give you that one, that would be an issue

Also, you have to take into consideration, Different Warriors will react differently.

There are Different Spartans with different Abilities and Specialties.
Its the same with The Space Marines.

It just depends on who fights each other.

Fl@nked wrote:Nuru, pump the brakes. I'm not saying a Spartan is a match for a Marine, but on a good day, he might just have his shot.

As for the shield, you missed what I said. Yes, his shield can only take one or two shots, but if said Spartan engages the Marine at medium range (just long enough to make the bolter lose accuracy and make use of his range advantage) and jumps in and out of cover to let the shield recharge, he just might have a shot.

Also

So all you Pro-Spartans are telling me that a 9.5x40mm round is effective against a Tank, right? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're saying.

No, that is not EXACTLY what we're saying. A marine is LIKE a tank, but is NOT A TANK, therefore you cannot use a tank for comparisons.

Plus, an M1 Abrams Battle Tank (a pretty tough cookie we can all agree) has an est. 52-64 in. of armor on the front facing (courtesy of Wikipedia) where a Marine has about 6-7 inches solid armor at his thickest point. The helmet however, looks to be about 2-3 inches thick, easily penetratable with modern anti-material rounds, a weaker version of what the spartan is firing. Add in the advanced ceramite/whateverium plating the helmet has, and you've got a helmet that can take a handful of AP rounds but will fail under pressure. As earlier stated, if a lasgun can do it, shouldn't a super-stubber be able to as well?

Fl@nked, I think you are the only one trying to use reasoning.

If a lasgun can wreck a SM helmet, a battle rifle also has the possibility of doing so, its not likely, but it is possible. End of story.

Oh and starting a spartan with a Battle Rifle instead of an Assault rifle in the interest of him not being destroyed by a much better assault weapon, a bolter. An assault rifle doesn't hold a candle to it. At least with the Battle Rifle, a Spartan might have a chance at range.

daedalus-templarius wrote:Oh and starting a spartan with a Battle Rifle instead of an Assault rifle in the interest of him not being destroyed by a much better assault weapon, a bolter. An assault rifle doesn't hold a candle to it. At least with the Battle Rifle, a Spartan might have a chance at range.

But then, aren't you just rigging the stakes?

Commissar NIkev wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Necroman wrote:

No Chance in Hell

-Aliens from Alien

NO!!!! Maybe not the first movie, but the other movies the Aliens would overwhelm them. Plus, enough acid blood would disinigrate the Space Marine's armour!

Acid blood is the only defense, and it has to be at point-blank.

At any range other than point-blank... Well, you saw what happened in Aliens when the marines shot them from a distance, right?

Munch Munch! wrote:
No. Just no. First of all he doesn't know where to hit it. He's gonna aim at that head and blow it off, before saying "Holy feth! It's up again!" Second point, his bolt pistol is eventually going to run out of ammo. Third point, he isn't going to pick up the covenant and UNSC weapons that flood have. He'll say "How can these heretical, unannoited weapons be fit for a servant of the Emperor," a second before he's killed by the flood. Fourth point, melee weapons are largley ineffective against the flood. (five melee hits on easy, if memory serves me correctly)
Long story short: No flood hunting knowledge + inevitable instance of running out of ammo + unwillingness to use inferior enemy weapons + combat knife being absolute crap against flood= dead marine on the floor, ready to turn into flood chow.

My scenario gave him infinite bolter ammo/chainsword fuel, since making him pick up the human/covenant weapons diminishes the differences between Spartans and Astartes.

If he hits the Flood pretty much anywhere, they die; the bolter explosion will kill them.

Energy Sword is perfectly viable against the flood (One-shots them), as our simple things like the bladed Brute Shot in Halo 2. A chainsword won't have problems. If you give him a combat knife... Eh... Tough call there.

Fluff wise Marines ARE walking tanks, as in it's said they can take shots that would destroy modern tanks

No, a marine taking a modern kinetic-penetrating 120 mm anti-tank round would be destroyed. And that little beauty is a common round in the real world.

People keep using the fact that Marine armor is in the future, and so is impervious to anything older than it, and that is a bad way to discount things. Don't forget that they have better technology in SOME aspects, but we have some things over on them as well. We don't need STC's. We know how machines work. And we make big guns that make all the Marines run from the yard.

Trust me, we have weapons that can pierce marine armor. Tanks, bombs, etc. We can hurt a marine.

Just not one on one...

And pray to your respective gods that you NEVER get into close combat with one.

sc0ttfree wrote:how are the flood armed with....nothing that can pierce through that amour going to kill him? also when the library thing was posted he said INFINITE AMMO so that doesnt work, also about the no prior knowledge, what about the curse of unbeliief? once the marine saw the similarities he would probably bring up the info on that and just be done with it. Speed? well a marine is easily as fast as a spartan just bulkier but he has better sensors and such to let him know the missles coming before he takes a step to the side cuz only a direct impact would have the slightest chance on piercing that armour

Also about the other weapons i have to give you that one, that would be an issue

Curse of unbelief?
I give you the point about the near invincible armour. near invincible. Also, remeber that in the library there were thousands, maybe millions of flood life forms. That armours eventually going to suffer alot of damage, letting the weapons have a greater chance of causing damage. But, for the sake of this argument, are we talking about a fully armoured sm, or a seargent with a bare head?

Curse of unbelief is a nurgle plague that basicly creates zombies and flood like creatures that can use guns. It was huge in the 13th black crusade

Read Cadian Blood its well written and explains it better than i could

Necroman wrote:

daedalus-templarius wrote:Oh and starting a spartan with a Battle Rifle instead of an Assault rifle in the interest of him not being destroyed by a much better assault weapon, a bolter. An assault rifle doesn't hold a candle to it. At least with the Battle Rifle, a Spartan might have a chance at range.

But then, aren't you just rigging the stakes?

I wouldn't say giving the spartan a battle rifle to start with is rigging the stakes, it is started with in the game, and used in fiction, just as much as an assault rifle.

Munch Munch! wrote:

sc0ttfree wrote:

Nuruhuine wrote:So all you Pro-Spartans are telling me that a 9.5x40mm round is effective against a Tank, right? Cause that is EXACTLY what you're saying. You're saying that a 9.5x40mm round is going to smash through armour that's as thick and durable as TANK armour. Get real. The Spartans would be a humorous footnote in the history of some Chapter, at BEST. Even on his best day a Spartan couldn't take on a Marine without a 10-1 advantage.

You tout the power of the Spartan Shield... Ok... How many rockets can it take before it goes offline for it's recharge? Probably One, MAYBE a second. Now consider the Marine would *probably* fire more than one or two shots in his opening salvo, and if those rounds connect, which they likely would (You try dodging a miniture cruise-missle), the Spartan can kiss his shield goodbye for a short period of time while the marine plays a refreshing game of "How many bolter rounds can I fit in his head before it caves in on itself and forms a singularity of awesome?"

Owned.

the library comment made me lol, he ment the mission in the first halo where its the cheif against swarms and swarms of flood and he has to find the index as the swarm is closing in around him....if a marine was in that spot he probably would only need a bolt pistol, his combat knife and maybe a couple grenades, and thats just for efficiency sake because nothing the flood has would even come close to killing him, but smashing with just hands would get tedious.

No. Just no. First of all he doesn't know where to hit it. He's gonna aim at that head and blow it off, before saying "Holy feth! It's up again!" Second point, his bolt pistol is eventually going to run out of ammo. Third point, he isn't going to pick up the covenant and UNSC weapons that flood have. He'll say "How can these heretical, unannoited weapons be fit for a servant of the Emperor," a second before he's killed by the flood. Fourth point, melee weapons are largley ineffective against the flood. (five melee hits on easy, if memory serves me correctly)
Long story short: No flood hunting knowledge + inevitable instance of running out of ammo + unwillingness to use inferior enemy weapons + combat knife being absolute crap against flood= dead marine on the floor, ready to turn into flood chow.

Im sure bolter, being rockets, would do fine against flood; and im sure a chain sword or power weapon would do wonders (the plasma sword is a one hit kill after all)

I imagine that a SM with a bolt pistol/bolter and chainsword/power-weapon would do quite well against the flood.

Also, have written a script for a spartan vs SM battle, although I won't post it since I'm sure people would rage no matter how reasonable it is. Hopefully will get some art done on it soon.

Munch Munch! wrote:

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Spike's Deadliest Warrior needs to do Space Marine vs. Spartan Super-Soldier!

Oh, this reminds me, Deadliest warrior's at 8 for us fellas in Edmonton! Nazis are gonna tear vietcong apart!

That was the worst episode ever. I am still fuming over it. They did the Viet Cong without the Ak-47!?! That's like simming the Samurai without a Katana or the Spartan (the real one) without a Shield. Seriously they choose a ball of mud with sticks in it over the AK-47! WTF!?!