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timd wrote:
In the original game, the points cost was approximately ten times the cost of a comparable 40K figure. So a 30(!) point marine would be 300 in Necromunda.

Yes but that was based upon BS4 and WS4 marines. Since gangers can gets to WS6 and BS6 after some gang fights, a super human marine with decades of training would need radically higher stats than a 2nd ed marine.

As an example, one of my old gang leaders; A Chaos Space Marine as presented at the back of the Underhive book isn't particularly frightening.

timd wrote:

nou wrote:


And would be worth 3000 credits to recruit

I'm realy curious how they handled adequate pricing different factions basic infantry. In particular - how much is a Tyranid Warrior worth if basic Neophyte is worth 50pts. And if they kept 1000 credit/pts limit to recruit your gang, err... kill team.

In the original game, the points cost was approximately ten times the cost of a comparable 40K figure. So a 30(!) point marine would be 300 in Necromunda.

T

Yes, a typical marine would be 300pts (official Necromunda Chaos Space Marine was 300 pts, making a lascannon Devastator Marine worth 700pts) , but the post I replied to was picturing a "proper" Space Marine, with stats of all sixes and a wholesale bunch of special traits. Thats sounds like Necromunda equvalent of Guilliman, hence this 3000pts mark.

I never really thought that the stats in Necromunda translated literally to 40K. I mean it doesn't make sense that you could end up with a squad of hapless gangers armed with scraps that would be better than a unit of Marine Captains.

Always saw their stats as "in context". So a high skilled marksman ganger would be BS6 in the context of Necromunda, but might rate BS4 in 40K proper. Conversley, a Space Marine is WS4 in 40K, but would start at WS6 if ported across to Necromunda.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never really thought that the stats in Necromunda translated literally to 40K. I mean it doesn't make sense that you could end up with a squad of hapless gangers armed with scraps that would be better than a unit of Marine Captains.

Always saw their stats as "in context". So a high skilled marksman ganger would be BS6 in the context of Necromunda, but might rate BS4 in 40K proper. Conversley, a Space Marine is WS4 in 40K, but would start at WS6 if ported across to Necromunda.

This hits the nail on the head IMO.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never really thought that the stats in Necromunda translated literally to 40K.

I did. It's literally the same rule set as 2nd edition. Gangers were just Guard without armour. That last bit is kind of important.

I always assumed the Marine's reputatution was either Imperium PR or the studio tuning them down to have more than a handful on the board at any given time.

I mean a BS4 Ganger with a Lascannon is a scary thing to any model in 40K. It's also very fragile.

Just wondering, did anyone else tend to pass up the odder bits of kit in Necromunda?

Stuff like Filter Plugs and that? Pretty much all I ever bought that wasn't guns or armour were those clip things for my Heavies, and the winchy things, which came in dead handy for King of the Spire, or whatever that scenario was actually called!

I never invested in combat drugs, Bolters, Bolt Pistols or Plasma type weapons either. I much preferred to rely on lower tech stuff, finding strength in numbers rather than quality of equipment.

Most equipment was total junk or ludicrously priced, yes

In fact, come to think of it I mostly relied on Pistols. Perhaps my usual groups played with particularly dense terrain, but I tended to find I rarely had need of a Basic Weapon's extra range. Instead, move in close with Pistols and enjoy the near universal +2 to hit, or just bundle them in combat and cut off a few ears.

Heavies were of course an exception, and I did have Gangers with basic weapons - mostly because the models were a pain in the arse to convert, and even then I heavily favoured the humble Shotgun.

Unless you're playing community edition with their hunting rifles, Autopistols are all you'll ever need (apart from the heavy stubbers of course).

I preferred Las-Pistols for those easy ammo rolls

Autopistol is better - in the old days it was not -1 to hit long and in community edition it's +2 short where las is only +1.

Looking forward to how they have tried to balance everyone in this

I'd like to see a version of Necromunda where the setting was re-framed a little to make the hangers more like civilians with whatever guns they could get than paramilitary squads.
Like gangers starting with twos instead of threes, juves with WS1 and so on, plus make las-weapons and other Imperial high tech rare. Not "working bionics" or arcaeotech rare, but still something you can't just go out and buy at war-mart.
Stuff like that.
Equally though, armour should not be so hard to obtain. I mean, sure, regulation Flak vests may be out of reach but there has got to be a market for chain mail and steel plate, both of which can be made from the sort of junk you find at the bottom of the hive.

Basically I think Necromunda was mistaken to build its armoury exclusively on the Wargear Book from 2nd edition; that was all about battlefield gear used by organised militaries not civilian weapons pressed into service.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never really thought that the stats in Necromunda translated literally to 40K. I mean it doesn't make sense that you could end up with a squad of hapless gangers armed with scraps that would be better than a unit of Marine Captains.

Always saw their stats as "in context". So a high skilled marksman ganger would be BS6 in the context of Necromunda, but might rate BS4 in 40K proper. Conversley, a Space Marine is WS4 in 40K, but would start at WS6 if ported across to Necromunda.

Wholeheartedly agree, the game does not feature Avatar and Greater daemons so it allows for more granularity between what is essentially cultists, guardsmen and Vetersn sergeants fighting amongst themselves. In regards to skills and so on, what may be highly effective against another human may not make a bit of difference against a space marine for example. This becomes easier to see when youve played the rp games and so on. 40k really brings a lot of abdtraction whereas Necromunda, with its more limited range of humans allows more scope within that range

My hangs had a goodly mix of all the weapon types, because the miniatures did.

The Escher Heavy with heavy plasma gun was utterly pointless if you're going to be "optimal" about such things, but pah! it's a status symbol. Especially when it's bright pink.

I agree with H.M.B.C and squall; while the ruleset is the same, I don't think the range of stats was supposed to be a literal equivalent.

As for the lack of armour, that was as much a balancing thing as anything else. In Necromunda, it's all about avoiding the shot - if you get hit, it should hurt. As opposed to Gorkamorka, where the Orks could shrug off dozens of stubba hits; hitting is (relatively) easy, with BS3 and no cover, but doing damage is more difficult. melee was more important in Gorkamorka, as I recall.

Flugs and photovisors might have been more important if the specialist grenades - gas and photon, for example - were easier to get hold of. Or if the Treacherous Conditions were mandatory right in the core game. Too often I found players didn't use them unless one of them had a Ratskin gang (and even then, sometimes they didn't bother).

Chairman Aeon wrote:
I did. It's literally the same rule set as 2nd edition. Gangers were just Guard without armour. That last bit is kind of important.

I'm aware that the rules were the same, but I said in the context of the game. What is a super-sniper in Necromunda would pass as competently trained in the larger 40K universe.

Chairman Aeon wrote:
I always assumed the Marine's reputatution was either Imperium PR...

Given everything we know about Marines and the feats they are capable of, what on Earth gave you that idea?

 AndrewGPaul wrote:
My hangs had a goodly mix of all the weapon types, because the miniatures did.

The Escher Heavy with heavy plasma gun was utterly pointless if you're going to be "optimal" about such things, but pah! it's a status symbol. Especially when it's bright pink.

I agree with H.M.B.C and squall; while the ruleset is the same, I don't think the range of stats was supposed to be a literal equivalent.

As for the lack of armour, that was as much a balancing thing as anything else. In Necromunda, it's all about avoiding the shot - if you get hit, it should hurt. As opposed to Gorkamorka, where the Orks could shrug off dozens of stubba hits; hitting is (relatively) easy, with BS3 and no cover, but doing damage is more difficult. melee was more important in Gorkamorka, as I recall.

Flugs and photovisors might have been more important if the specialist grenades - gas and photon, for example - were easier to get hold of. Or if the Treacherous Conditions were mandatory right in the core game. Too often I found players didn't use them unless one of them had a Ratskin gang (and even then, sometimes they didn't bother).

Escher Plasma Heavy, worthless? Sure... sometimes

I loved Treacherous Conditions, they really changed up the game.

Once lost my sole surviving Yeld to a Sludge Sea.

Friend's hireling Psyker used 'Trip Up', which landed me in the sludge. Sod then use a Telekinetic power to shove me D6"....down. And yes, he rolled a 6. We both kind of agreed that was curtains for the Yeld!

Oh, happy gaming days!

That's more Marksman being a stupid rule :p

About the translation between Necromunda and 40k 2nd - when they had 40k critters with unaltered stats the argument that they represent different scales kind of breaks down - though I agree that's the far more logical way to view it

Wasn't it the Armageddon book that had rules in it to port over your Necromunda gangs into 40k?

Official Necromunda Chaos Space Marine had normal Space Marine stats. Official Necromunda Genestealer and Eldar Scouts had exactly same stats as their respective 2nd ed 40K entries. This was the same system in the same context. I think that confusion arises from focusing on fluff "heroic" depictions of Space Marines and completely unreasonable expectations of how good SM should be on the tabletop or how bad everything else should be... Most codices give you similiarly heroic depictions of other races. Genetically enchanced superhuman shared half of his stats with a humble Hormagaunt.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Given everything we know about Marines and the feats they are capable of, what on Earth gave you that idea?

I started playing with Rogue Trader where Marines went out for pints with their mates and had Chaos toilets. Post 3E players seem to totally believe the hype, or drink the Kool-Aid, or what ever. Still just a big guy in a suit of armour until the setting was retconned.

nou wrote:
Official Necromunda Chaos Space Marine had normal Space Marine stats. Official Necromunda Genestealer and Eldar Scouts had exactly same stats as their respective 2nd ed 40K entries. This was the same system in the same context. I think that confusion arises from focusing on fluff "heroic" depictions of Space Marines and completely unreasonable expectations of how good SM should be on the tabletop or how bad everything else should be... Most codices give you similiarly heroic depictions of other races. Genetically enchanced superhuman shared half of his stats with a humble Hormagaunt.

Yes, and those stats were chucked in at the end to fill up the page count. I suppose we'll need to agree to disagree.

On another note, I was thinking about the setting of this new game, and how people are upset that it's not the underhive of Necromunda's Palatine Hive again. I actually hope that if "Necromunda" is brought back as a specialist game about hive gang warfare, that it has a different (although related?) setting. Close enough that those of us with old miniatures can use them as actual House Goliath or Escher or whatnot gangs, but different so that we get another six Houses. Set it on another hive in the Palatine cluster (Trazior got a lot of mention in the Confrontation rules and Ian Watson's Space Marine).

Or set it in The Skull; the abandoned hive that was sacked by Orks, which is what brought the Imperial Fists to Necromunda in the first place (needs a bit of retconning to fit with the new background, that). Plenty of scope for gangs from other hives to be present as outlaws, refugees or prospectors, along with feral Orks, degenerate tribes of ghouls and all sorts of other nasty things that go bump in the night ...

You know, that latest gaming table over at Warhammer World, the mining facility with all the walkways and gantries, looks like it has been made just for this.

Where is the news for this new AOS starter?

Never bought much fancy stuff myself but my opponent was heavily into slaught. If I remember correctly he would have multiple movement 6 close combat fighters! They were pretty deadly.

The rules for things like chaos marines in outlanders were not that great but to be fair they were a bit of an after thought for some special scenarios.

My current campaign plans is for one of the religious hives on Necromunda, mainly to explain all the religious style images : http://www.taccmd.tacticalwargames.net/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=31227 The Skull would be a pretty good setting also.

I'm going to try out my DE.

Armageddon Sirens? Is that a stupid name?

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm going to try out my DE.

Armageddon Sirens? Is that a stupid name?

Sounds like something fairly mundane for what's going on in that place. Sirens must be crying non-stop, just like they do on the table top!

Lord Kragan wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm going to try out my DE.

Armageddon Sirens? Is that a stupid name?

Sounds like something fairly mundane for what's going on in that place. Sirens must be crying non-stop, just like they do on the table top!

It was more of a nod to Gotham City Sirens. I have 44 3rd edition Kabalites lying around so I'm sure I can find enough women.

I might start a small Eldar force while I'm at it.

NivlacSupreme wrote:

Lord Kragan wrote:

NivlacSupreme wrote:
I'm going to try out my DE.

Armageddon Sirens? Is that a stupid name?

Sounds like something fairly mundane for what's going on in that place. Sirens must be crying non-stop, just like they do on the table top!

It was more of a nod to Gotham City Sirens. I have 44 3rd edition Kabalites lying around so I'm sure I can find enough women.

I might start a small Eldar force while I'm at it.

My comment was mostly a joke tbh.

Wytch gang, or a mutant gang with a couple of pet genestealers, and cultists, or a Plague army with a mysterious boss who calls the shots from the shadows, then as the progression evolves into a full fledges cult war against a Nurgle cult and a Genestealer cult. Tunnel wars, and a top spyer hunter crew in there for GP...

I can see possibilities.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
GW website ALSO has a good batch of Fallen. A named crew of fallen, and a warband of free form chaos could really be a good day of war and plunder.