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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




A better way to look at it might be:

Rerolls to 1 to hit or wound, or exploding 6s, increase sternguard bolters damage by 16.6% vs marines out of cover.

Rerolls to hit or +1 to wound increase it by 33.33%

Adding rerolls to hit, rerolls 1 to wound, and both strats, increases the damage to 141.9%. Without the strat that number goes to 107.4%, meaning the strat can add as much as 34.5% damage to a single squad's damage under the right circumstances.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






Mandragola wrote:
So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.

But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.

I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.


I figure bolter drill could be fun with those interceptors with assault bolters

or even a unit of terminators deep striking for Rapid fire 2 storm bolters up the wazoo.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Or Aggressors.

Bolter Drill may not do much on a unit of 10 tacticals, but 6 Aggressors with Auto Boltstorm Gauntlets? It'll do more than some of the other chapter specific stratagems, that's for sure.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:00:21


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Longtime Dakkanaut




It's really just as good or as bad as paying 1 cp to reroll 1s to hit or wound, with the added bonus of being able to stack with rerolls.

How good that is is up to you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 16:03:07


 
   
Made in us
Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

 Desubot wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.

But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.

I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.


I figure bolter drill could be fun with those interceptors with assault bolters

or even a unit of terminators deep striking for Rapid fire 2 storm bolters up the wazoo.
Since those will be deployed forward, they are less likely to benefit from a Chapter Master (Pedro is on foot), and paying the 3CP to upgrade a JP or Terminator Captain into a Chapter Master is a bit much. Still, it is a possibility. My plan for Sternguard tearing stuff up seems to be a good option though. Nothing is safe!

In other news, I just remembered that Dreadnoughts are Elites not Heavy Support, so I can get myself up to 8 CP now. So that is pretty cool. All of the Bolter Drill! Or Bolter Drill and Masterful Marksmanship multiple times for maximum devastation.

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Been Around the Block




Mandragola wrote:
So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.

But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.

I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.


You can split fire in 8E remember.

I think the trick is with the Raven guard strategem is that it could backfire on you.

But I otherwise agree it should be only usable once.
   
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Ottawa

Malifice wrote:
Mandragola wrote:
So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.

But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.

I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.


You can split fire in 8E remember.

I think the trick is with the Raven guard strategem is that it could backfire on you.

But I otherwise agree it should be only usable once.


It is definitely heavily weighed towards alpha strike, and the more you want to use it, the less CP you have for responding to the match as it carries on. You can put all your eggs in one basket here, but that isn't always the best option.

I'm willing to wait until I see it played (or play it myself) before I comment on its power, to be honest. Same with the IF Stratagem.
   
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Regular Dakkanaut




I dont feel like the RG one is necessarily too strong compared to the others if you have to protect yourself against that 30% (or roll off) chance of going 2nd, not to mention the more infantry you stealth deploy thats more deployments in total. As suggested above, Id pictured using it more to get short range guns in cover at 12-24", not just plant everything at 9".

But I do easily see it being used as an all in alpha strike and becoming heads I win, tails I lose, which doesnt make for fun games or a good tournament.
   
Made in se
Road-Raging Blood Angel Biker




Copy pasting this from the math I did in another thread:

Assuming 3+ to hit a bolt shot scores 0.67 hits, bolter drill makes each bolt shot score 0.11 extra hits.

With reroll 1's to hit this increases to 0.78 hits per shot with 0.15 extra hits from bolter drill.

With full reroll this increases to 0.89 hits per shot with 0.20 extra hits from bolter drill.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




What role do you guys see Vanguard Veterans playing? Do you even bother deep striking with them?

Given that they have the same charge distance as terminators, I feel like both varieties of Terminators do the deep strike -> assault thing better than Vanguard vets, with normal Terminators shooting up less armored things and hopefully charging something tough, while assault terminators will liquidate anything they get into contact with. They also have much more durable armor in order to survive shooting should they fail their charges. Only thing vanguards have over them in this instance is being much cheaper and being able to assault flyers if necessary.

If I'm not deep striking with vanguards and am instead moving them up the board hopping from cover to cover, how do you end up kitting your guys, a mix of thunder hammers/lightning claws/storm shields/vanilla guys to catch bullets to take on all comers? Is it better to go all lightning claws/thunder hammers?

With the new wound allocation rules I can see the benefits of a bunch of vanilla line troopers + storm shield holders to take the hits while your expensive thunder hammers and lightning claws break through.

   
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Boosting Space Marine Biker




Vanguard have a major problem right now in that Reivers do what they do for barely anymore points and twice as many wounds unless you're opting to spend a considerable amount of fancy weapons.

So if you're going to take them you should imho play to what they are good at and load for fancy weapons galore
   
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Chaplain with Hate to Spare





Sioux Falls, SD

GAdvance wrote:
Vanguard have a major problem right now in that Reivers do what they do for barely anymore points and twice as many wounds unless you're opting to spend a considerable amount of fancy weapons.

So if you're going to take them you should imho play to what they are good at and load for fancy weapons galore
VV are more mobile than Reivers, with higher movement and the ability to ignore terrain while moving. Grapnel Reivers can achieve some of the VC movement, but not quite. Still, Reivers are probably better.

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I think 1 plasma pistol and 1 chainsword each is the way to go. 10 shots and 30 close combat attacks is pretty good, and anything else gets really expensive for a unit that might not make the charge.

The exception to this in my mind is Ravenguard/Black Templars, as shrike / black templars CT can let them reroll the charge, or RG can use their stratagem to get in position to charge. Only then would i consider more than a few (like 2?) Power weapons.

Just my 2 cents, but that's how i see the unit working effectively.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 23:21:53


 
   
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I'm using them as a mildly more expensive screen for Terminators but mostly to go after large blobs of targets that wouldn't work out for Scouts. I use the minimum size + Relic Blade and have moderate success.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
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A vanguard vet with jump packs are about half the cost of the terminator with power fists way less than thss.

for a more focused weapon selection than just straight power fists.

revers would be closer to 20 point assault marines with the same deep strike ability but way less movement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 23:23:58


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





I will use both Reivers and Vanguards (with Jumppacks) once I get my Reivers, since I consider them to do different things. They're both decent cc-units, but they handle cc differently.

Reivers are tankier than Vanguards due to having twice the number of wounds, and are better at killing hordes due to having AP1 on all their attacks.

Vanguard are faster than Reivers, and can bring specialist close combat weapons to tackle most opponents. You wouldn't really want to slam a unit of reivers into something with T8, but you'd be more than happy to slam a unit of Vanguards carrying afew Thunder Hammers into something with T8.

Now if only Honour Guards had a squadsize 2-10 instead of 2-2, I'd be able to field decent close combat army.

At least Assault Centurions seems to get a massive pointdecrease with the codex. Thank the Emperor for that, there was simply no way that I'd field 5 of them at 97 ppm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/26 23:35:52


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 MinscS2 wrote:
I will use both Reivers and Vanguards (with Jumppacks) once I get my Reivers, since I consider them to do different things. They're both decent cc-units, but they handle cc differently.

Reivers are tankier than Vanguards due to having twice the number of wounds, and are better at killing hordes due to having AP1 on all their attacks.

Vanguard are faster than Reivers, and can bring specialist close combat weapons to tackle most opponents. You wouldn't really want to slam a unit of reivers into something with T8, but you'd be more than happy to slam a unit of Vanguards carrying afew Thunder Hammers into something with T8.

Now if only Honour Guards had a squadsize 2-10 instead of 2-2, I'd be able to field decent close combat army.

At least Assault Centurions seems to get a massive pointdecrease with the codex. Thank the Emperor for that, there was simply no way that I'd field 5 of them at 97 ppm.



Oh man i cant wait.

love those guys.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 MinscS2 wrote:
I will use both Reivers and Vanguards (with Jumppacks) once I get my Reivers, since I consider them to do different things. They're both decent cc-units, but they handle cc differently.

Reivers are tankier than Vanguards due to having twice the number of wounds, and are better at killing hordes due to having AP1 on all their attacks.

Vanguard are faster than Reivers, and can bring specialist close combat weapons to tackle most opponents. You wouldn't really want to slam a unit of reivers into something with T8, but you'd be more than happy to slam a unit of Vanguards carrying afew Thunder Hammers into something with T8.

Now if only Honour Guards had a squadsize 2-10 instead of 2-2, I'd be able to field decent close combat army.

At least Assault Centurions seems to get a massive pointdecrease with the codex. Thank the Emperor for that, there was simply no way that I'd field 5 of them at 97 ppm.



They definitely do different things, in that vanguard have good shooting, and can kill way more stuff, whereas the reivers pretty much have to be Ravenguard to be effective, and arent that likely to kill much more than small marine squads.
   
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 Weazel wrote:
Malifice wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.

I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.


If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.

Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!


Idk, seize is only 1/6 chance so pretty unlikely. And for my army it would be nigh impossible to delete 30ish T5 W2 3+ models in a turn.

And it doesn't have to be Aggressors though. 5 units of assault terminators 9" away ready to beat you to a pulp is not something that's fun to face either.


I will always factor the "seize" in when I do my deployment. It happens against me in all my 3 8th Edition 40K games.
   
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sossen wrote:
Copy pasting this from the math I did in another thread:

Assuming 3+ to hit a bolt shot scores 0.67 hits, bolter drill makes each bolt shot score 0.11 extra hits.

With reroll 1's to hit this increases to 0.78 hits per shot with 0.15 extra hits from bolter drill.

With full reroll this increases to 0.89 hits per shot with 0.20 extra hits from bolter drill.


So in a unit with all Bolters and Pedro Kantor within 6", this results in a 20 percent increase in hits scored.

When firing a unit of 6 Devestator Cents (12 x Heavy Bolters and 6 x Hurricane bolters) that adds up to generating an extra 7.2 heavy bolter hits, and 14.4 bolter hits.

For the same price as a single dice re-roll thats not a bad trade-off.
   
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Malifice wrote:
sossen wrote:
Copy pasting this from the math I did in another thread:

Assuming 3+ to hit a bolt shot scores 0.67 hits, bolter drill makes each bolt shot score 0.11 extra hits.

With reroll 1's to hit this increases to 0.78 hits per shot with 0.15 extra hits from bolter drill.

With full reroll this increases to 0.89 hits per shot with 0.20 extra hits from bolter drill.


So in a unit with all Bolters and Pedro Kantor within 6", this results in a 20 percent increase in hits scored.

When firing a unit of 6 Devestator Cents (12 x Heavy Bolters and 6 x Hurricane bolters) that adds up to generating an extra 7.2 heavy bolter hits, and 14.4 bolter hits.

For the same price as a single dice re-roll thats not a bad trade-off.


It isn't amazing, but it is definitely not bad, is usable, and is a buff that no other SM can get, making the IF have the best bolters around.
   
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Has anyone taken their Fellblade for a run now that Forge World FAQ the Relic rules?

I was trying to build a list around one, however at 750 points it is a rather massive investment!

Keen to hear how others are making use of them?
   
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What do you think about the importance of going first with marines and do all the new stratagems affect that?

I watched a codex review where they said they thought it's more viable to go brigade for high CPs and go second with all the new options. I personally don't really see it. The free shots at an incoming deepstrike is great. But the rest don't really boost survivability. Or even boost combat power to the extent I'd be totally okay letting myself get alpha striked to have them.

...Though, admittedly, despite wanting to go first, if I stick to my 0 Stormraven list plan, I'm looking at 9-11 drops easy, so moderate chance I'll be going second anyways. Going full brigade for +6 CPs in that case has some appeal....Hmm, I think this gets back to my earlier comment, that RG stratagem might seem OP, but if you take an army full of infantry to stealth up, you're drastically cutting your odds of going first and being able to capitalize on it to an OP extent.
   
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USA

Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?

Now I want to use terminators even more

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 04:23:43


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Sioux Falls, SD

 Melissia wrote:
Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?

Now I want to use terminators even more
Hellblasters went down to 165 pts per squad from 190 pts. Inceptors are down to 180 pts from 225 pts. Pretty damn good as well.

A base Terminators Squad costs 192 pts down from 224 pts. That is a hefty drop. The squad I would run(Assault Cannon and otherwise normal) dropped from 243 pts to 211 pts. That is hard not to want to try.

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 Melissia wrote:
Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?

Now I want to use terminators even more


yeah, really looking forward to that, almost tempted to build a "first company" force to accompany my Primaris Marines

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That's a pretty hefty price drop for Assault Terminators. Any word of Vanguard price changes? Not they really need them, mind you.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

BrianDavion wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?

Now I want to use terminators even more


yeah, really looking forward to that, almost tempted to build a "first company" force to accompany my Primaris Marines

Well, I recently obtained a force of 20 scouts, 5 tactical terminators, 10 assault terminators, and a terminator captain. All I have to do is buy a termie librarian and chaplain, and my force is complete... but now I think I'll be able to give all my scouts cloaks, too.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Gibs55 wrote:
Has anyone taken their Fellblade for a run now that Forge World FAQ the Relic rules?

I was trying to build a list around one, however at 750 points it is a rather massive investment!

Keen to hear how others are making use of them?


I've been using a Fellblade lately. When adequately screened it's been just about unkillable. Having plenty of reserve drops in a list helps it get deployed into a good postion with sight lines on the enemy force. It really dominates in games that start with Hammer and Anvil or similar deployments as it lets you fully utilise your weapons long range advantage to neutralise enemy armour before it can engage. I'm running mine at 717 points(Fellblade Accelerator Cannon,Demolisher,2xQuad Lascannon) in a 1500 point list. If I run into a horde list it will cost me the game unlike Imperial Guard superheavies that can go crazy with heavy flamer sponsons. Against everything else its death on legs with T9,26W and a 2+ save. Taking it to a tournament on Saturday so I'' have a better idea whether its an unstoppable murder machine or "all my eggs in one basket" after then.
   
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bort wrote:
...Though, admittedly, despite wanting to go first, if I stick to my 0 Stormraven list plan, I'm looking at 9-11 drops


Sounds pretty easy to table with the new FAQ.

A few deepstriking uints and some good shooting and you could be left with nothing but fliers (and lose instantly).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 casvalremdeikun wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Anyone noticed Terminators got a huge points drop? 8 points per tactical termie, and four (I think) per assault termie, if I'm calculating it right?

Now I want to use terminators even more
Hellblasters went down to 165 pts per squad from 190 pts. Inceptors are down to 180 pts from 225 pts. Pretty damn good as well.

A base Terminators Squad costs 192 pts down from 224 pts. That is a hefty drop. The squad I would run(Assault Cannon and otherwise normal) dropped from 243 pts to 211 pts. That is hard not to want to try.


Pretty good to deep-strike onto objectives and just sit them there.

With the new rules for CF - they will be in cover (the board will be littered with it, and objectives will be placed in it) and only 1 needs to survive to claim the objective.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/27 08:48:01


 
   
 
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