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 Crimson wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

obviously this is an outliner but there is something to be said about consistent damage.

Sure. But D6 shot weapon doesn't provide that...

Yeah, I really wish they would stop doing that. Still, I enjoy variety, so rather than have 18 Heavy Bolter shots, I want a big blaster. Imperial/Crimson Fists are better off with actual Heavy Bolters.

Someone on Reddit pointed out that the Spartean pistol can snipe Characters even while the bearer is in combat. That is a fun little side effect. An two shot, two damage pistol that can hit characters is pretty cool. Not the best option, but fun, nonetheless.

Heard somewhere, asking for confirmation.

Did bikers get cheaper?

Trying to build a tank heavy list around the Killshot Stratagem. Have a good feel for the tanks I want to include and now just needs some veteran Space Marine player input to get the right balance of infantry to finish it off. It does not need to win tournaments however it would nice if it had a chance of winning a few games haha.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/734029.page

Any tactical help would be much appreciated!

str00dles1 wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

 casvalremdeikun wrote:

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:
Has anyone seen actual evidence that Inceptors are coming down in price?

yes. During one of the review videos that page is shown very clear and the price is 30 points rather than 45. The reviewer said that the assault Bolter are the same price.

Now that is downright great news. I will definitely be running them at 180pt a squad! That is fantastic news.

Its better, but still not all that great.. Easier to include them as a squad of 3 in lists now but I cant see doing more then that.

Might be worth it deepstriking 6 of them with a Lt and Captain in a Jump Pack and going for a [Bolter drill] alpha strike. 36 shots, re-rolling misses, rerolling W, S5, -1.

When you really want something deleted from the board.

I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.

I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.

 Weazel wrote:
I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.

I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.

If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.

Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!

Malifice wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.

I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.

If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.

Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!

Idk, seize is only 1/6 chance so pretty unlikely. And for my army it would be nigh impossible to delete 30ish T5 W2 3+ models in a turn.

And it doesn't have to be Aggressors though. 5 units of assault terminators 9" away ready to beat you to a pulp is not something that's fun to face either.

 Weazel wrote:
I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.

I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.

It's not any worse than a shooting focused army getting first turn normally is. A lot of games are determined by that first turn.

Use the ITC roll offs.

stratigo wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.

I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.

It's not any worse than a shooting focused army getting first turn normally is. A lot of games are determined by that first turn.

Use the ITC roll offs.

Well not a lot of first turn armies get to within rapid fire range while at the same time count as not having moved... I get that it's not 100% reliable and obviously you can counter it, but when it can be pulled off successfully is feels rather disgusting.

Bottom line: shenanigans like this is what put me and probably a lot of other people off of 7th edition 40k.

 Weazel wrote:

Malifice wrote:

 Weazel wrote:
I really can't believe that RG stratagem. That's the cheesiest and most OP bullgak I ever saw. And I so thought in 8th we would finally get rid of clusterfeth bullgak like that. Guess GW is back in the saddle of the cashcow. Guess we'll be seeing a lot of Aggressors in black in the near future... A sad day.

I'm so waiting it to be nerfed to A) limit to one use only, and/or B) unit(s) utilizing the stratagem count as having deep struck on their first turn.

If you have to set them up before the roll to seize thats a different story.

Agressors are glass cannons (notwithstanding T5, 3+ and 2 W). You dont get the 1st turn, and your forward Agressor units parked 9" away from the enemy gunline are getting deleted from the board for the cost of 1 CP each!

Idk, seize is only 1/6 chance so pretty unlikely. And for my army it would be nigh impossible to delete 30ish T5 W2 3+ models in a turn.

And it doesn't have to be Aggressors though. 5 units of assault terminators 9" away ready to beat you to a pulp is not something that's fun to face either.

Seize is 1/6 with a 1/6 CP re-roll (and you would be re-rolling).

If you're struggling to delete 30 models in a turn parked 9" away from you, you're possibly doing it wrong.

Theyre in [move + charge] distance of your melee troops and rapid fire distance of your Dakka.

Hose them with everything you have, then charge them. Even if you dont wipe them in turn 1, they dont have the Fly keyword and arent Ultramarines so they cant fall back and shoot on their turn.

Survivors wont be doing all that much, and youve just wiped out half his army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a CF player, I'd hit them with a 6 man Dev Cent squad (36 heavy bolter shots and 72 bolter shots from the Hurricane bolters) with a Lt for re-rolls to wound and Pedro Kantor for re-rolls to hit in support, using Bolter drill strategem for extra hits on a 6, and ignoring cover.

That should shift a few.

After that, Id look to hose the survivors with assailt canon razorbacks and Stormraven or Stormtalon.

The game would be all but won after turn 1's shooting plase.

Sensible people will know if they are going 1st or 2nd when they deploy their aggressors (barring seize). They will set them up at range >12" and in cover. They'll be pretty hard to get rid of.

It's not as if they are even expensive. A squad of 3 is 129 points.

There's so much utility in this ability. It's amazing for area denial. Simply starting on objectives is a massive bonus.

The RG Stratagem and Aggressors won't be a problem in my gaminggroup since we use the ITC-system of rolling off:
If you deploy your army first, you get +1 to the roll to see who goes first, you don't automatically go first.

I like 8th alot, but that whole "go first"-rule is the most stupid rule they've added in a long time.

 MinscS2 wrote:
The RG Stratagem and Aggressors won't be a problem in my gaminggroup since we use the ITC-system of rolling off:
If you deploy your army first, you get +1 to the roll to see who goes first, you don't automatically go first.

I like 8th alot, but that whole "go first"-rule is the most stupid rule they've added in a long time.

Agree with you on the first turn thing. It's a bad rule, and combines badly with how it now seems that first turn is more important than ever.

However, I think it's worth saying that the RG stratagem is extremely useful whether going first or second. There's actually no need to set up aggressors 9" away - they have 18" range. It's a pretty big deal just to be able to deploy after everything else has set up, but you can also stick troops on objectives and bubblewrap where you need to. Plus of course the RG CT makes it harder to kill your guys at range.

There's also a 2CP stratagem that lets you shoot with an infantry unit if an enemy deep strikes within 12", like the old interceptor rule. So dropping in plasma scions to clear out the aggressors isn't as straightforward as you might imagine.

Mandragola wrote:
Sensible people will know if they are going 1st or 2nd when they deploy their aggressors (barring seize). They will set them up at range >12" and in cover. They'll be pretty hard to get rid of.

The seize represents a 31% of getting turn 1 with a CP reroll. So the aggressors will only get to do their thing at most 69% of the time.

To me the issue is the games vs RG strat spam spam will be fairly 1 sided from the first turn. If they go first, they probably win. If i steal, i probably do. Even with the ITC roll off, it doesn't strike me as being that much fun to play as or against.

jcd386 wrote:
To me the issue is the games vs RG strat spam spam will be fairly 1 sided from the first turn. If they go first, they probably win. If i steal, i probably do. Even with the ITC roll off, it doesn't strike me as being that much fun to play as or against.

So mission accomplished. This forces you to re-evaluate how you play the game. Welcome to wargaming.

Since the Codex isn't out yet and we seemingly don't have all the info, why is there so much complaining? Lets let the dust settle on release first, at least.

My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.

The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.

Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.

There are weird ones too, like how the white scars stratagem doesn't even work on any of the new models.

Mandragola wrote:
My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.

The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.

Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.

I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.

 em_en_oh_pee wrote:

jcd386 wrote:
To me the issue is the games vs RG strat spam spam will be fairly 1 sided from the first turn. If they go first, they probably win. If i steal, i probably do. Even with the ITC roll off, it doesn't strike me as being that much fun to play as or against.

So mission accomplished. This forces you to re-evaluate how you play the game. Welcome to wargaming.

Since the Codex isn't out yet and we seemingly don't have all the info, why is there so much complaining? Lets let the dust settle on release first, at least.

Do you see a good way for every faction to counter RG CT spam over multiple builds? If not, it's a balance issue and should be fixed.

It's also possible it won't be nearly as scary as we think, so I'm all for giving it some time, and I'm all for new metas, having to buy more models, and changing strategies, but that doesn't mean something can't also be broken, or unfun for the majority of the community, and thus bad for the game.

I calculated 0.2 extra hits per bolter shot assuming reroll to hit, with a heavy bolter dev squad that's roughly 2.5 extra heavy bolter hits. Which roughly represents another heavy bolter firing three shots with reroll to hit, so about the same as using an armorium cherub.

 Weazel wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.

The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.

Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.

I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.

I actually think the IF CT is pretty good. You should be playing with a lot of terrain. Most infantry I've used / fought against is in cover. It's actually not that hard to get vehicles in cover of you want to, especially by using rhinos to cover other tanks that are on terrain, and the bonus is pretty meaningful . Ignoring that means you do a significant amount of damage over the norm.

IF also get one of the best warlord traits, making their infantry very durable to most anti infantry fire if they are in cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So mostly i just think RG are too good, mostly because of their strat being used more than once. All the others are fairly useable, even if some are less flexible in the armies they can effectively build than others are.

I agree that the IF CT is fine. Ignoring cover is a decent bonus, particularly with bolt rifles or stalker bolt rifles getting AP -1 or 2. I quite like the idea of cover-ignoring inceptors with assault bolters too. People really like to put infantry in cover guarding objectives, and the IF CT gives you a really good way to kill them.

The stratagem is seriously weak though. I was actually thinking of including a primaris rhino to give a unit +1 to hit, to make it happen a bit more often, before I realised I could just buy a whole other squad of intercessors for the price and increase my shooting by 100%. It's hard to imagine that I'll ever use the stratagem.

The warlord trait is fine. I'm annoyed because I use Lysander and it does literally nothing for him, but he's forced to take it.

The Spartean is an oddity. It's arguably quite good, in that it turns your bolt pistol from nothing into something, but it's not clear who I should give it to.

It is annoying that mini-marines get access to all the relics and primaris guys can only have a few of them. I think the teeth of terra is probably the best option for most people. The CF power fist is great, too. The burning blade is hurt by only doing one damage, but a primaris captain is still better with it than with his ordinary power sword.

The best option might be to put a Librarian in the armour indominatus. He doesn't come with an invulnerable so that option of getting a 3++ for a turn could be great, and he's glad of the 2+. Other characters gain less, as they have invulnerables already... or are cheap guys you aren't too bothered to lose.

Amusingly, the chaplain dreadnought is allowed the armour indominatus. I expect FW will FAQ that before too long!

I have heard termi squad get equipement price cut, wich is good news.

Btw what do you think of reiver squads as mainline footsloggers; for 50 more than minimarines, you get 10 more hp, 10 more attack and assaut 2 on your bolter. If you drop IH or RG tactics you got yourself some solid body.

Also the price reduction on bike is huge. I think you can make a potent army + salamenders tactis buff melta attack bike and 3 man melta/plasma squad so hard.

The IF stratagem is as good as rerolling 1s to hit or wound if you do the math vs marines. So, not great, but potentially good when piled on to other auras and abilities.

jcd386 wrote:
The stratagem is as good as rerolling 1s to hit or wound if you do the math for sternguard vs marines. So, not great, but potentially good when piled on to other auras and abilities.

So when combined with Rerolls to 1 and to wound, doesn't it become quite good?

I mean, it is a bit of a force multiplier when combined with other rerolls. The issue is that it only effects 1 unit.

Some math:

20 sterguard shots kill .74 more marines with rerolls to 1 to hit or wound, or with exploding 6s.

Rerolling all misses with a chapter master, or using the sternguard strat (but not the exploding 6s) kills twice as many more marines, or 1.48.

If you combine rerolls to hit or wound (but not both) of 1 and exploding 6s, you kill 1.60 more marines.

If you have exploding 6s and either the sternguard strat or a chapter master rerolling all misses (but not both) you kill 2.46 more. If you have all three you kill 4.77 more. If you add a Lt for reroll to would of 1, you kill 6.31 more. If you took out the exploding 6s, you'd be back down to 4.77, meaning that with the other auras there, the IF strat can add as much as 1.53 dead marines to the squad's firepower, which is something that other chapters don't have the ability to do.

 Weazel wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.

The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.

Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.

I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.

My six man squad of devastator centurions with heavy bolters and Hurricane bolters would like to talk to you. 36 heavy bolter and 72 bolter shots. Even without a captain or chapter master nearby thats 1CP for 18 extra bolter shots (on average). A chapter master like Pedro nearby increases that to 24 extra shots.

24 extra shots or reroll a single dice? I'm taking the former.

All those numbers are also assuming the target isn't in cover, as IF ignore it. That ability itself already adds 1.11 dead marines to the squads shooting, bringing it from 3.333 for non IFs to 4.444 IFs as a baseline for no auras.

jcd386 wrote:

 Weazel wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
My complaint is about the imbalance between the stratagems.

The RG one is clearly hugely important. There are tons of good ways to use it. Yes, you can throw units away if you're an idiot going second, or you're unlucky. But you can deploy your aggressors in relative safety - say upstairs in a ruin >12" away from things.

Compare that to bolter drill for the imperial fists. Spend a CP to possibly get a couple more bolter shots, if you roll 6s to hit.

I have a small detachment of Imperial Fists and was keeping options open for maybe expanding them sometime in the future but was positively flabbergasted by their stratagem. Absolute and utter caca. Extra hit rolls on 6's could have worked brilliantly as their chapter tactic instead of the rather useless ignores cover they got. Maybe verging on too powerful as a passive CT but as a stratagem it's borderline useless.

I actually think the IF CT is pretty good. You should be playing with a lot of terrain. Most infantry I've used / fought against is in cover. It's actually not that hard to get vehicles in cover of you want to, especially by using rhinos to cover other tanks that are on terrain, and the bonus is pretty meaningful . Ignoring that means you do a significant amount of damage over the norm.

IF also get one of the best warlord traits, making their infantry very durable to most anti infantry fire if they are in cover.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So mostly i just think RG are too good, mostly because of their strat being used more than once. All the others are fairly useable, even if some are less flexible in the armies they can effectively build than others are.

This.

Drop craters and terrain all over the board, scattered liberally through both deployment zones. Craters and ruins everywhere. Don't skimp, just keep dropping them. Don't forget when determining objectives to drop objectives in the middle of cover also.

Deploy a few deep striking units onto that objective, in cover. Pick one of those cover riddled deployment zones and deploy there, in cover. Move from ruin to ruin to crater to crater all game.

Enjoy a + 1 armour save all game, while denying your opponent anything. You are freaking space Marines; you start at a 3+, with an awful lot of 2+ as well.

The Imperial and Crimson fist chapter tactic is as good as you make it. I suggest going out and buying and basing a sh*t load of ruins and large craters.

So again, nobody here is complaining about the IF CT. It's fine.

But the stratagem sucks. And ok, sure if you use it on a 600+ point unit of devastator centurions it sucks less. The unit they fire at is 16.6% more overkilled than it was before.

I'm comparing a stratagem that increases bolt gun output by 16.6% from one unit for a CP, against the ravenguard ability to deploy anywhere. I'm saying that these abilities are not equal.