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My business is a stone's throw from a local liquor store. This store has built a reputation of selling booze and tobacco to underage kids. I have personally witnessed my 17 year-old nephew doing just this, as he didn't see me literally standing right behind him. My friend's 16 year-old daughter got busted too. I recently caught an underage employee trying to chill a bottle of vodka in our walk in freezer for later that night , receipt still in the bag.

This is technically a locally owned business, but owned by a well to do family. They own a dozen businesses in town. A couple complaints have been made to the local police, but they seem somewhat uninterested. The schools know about it, and are doing what they can to punish students. Small town politics mean "certain" families get special treatment from the local PD, a fact admitted to by some of the officers, and I wonder if this has something to do with it.

Here is the ethical debate. Some of us want to go over the local police department's head and report them to the state. However if this is just a couple rogue employees it could cause trouble for the owners.

As a business owner, I had no qualms of reporting fellow businesses not playing by the rules. It is the owners responsibility to make sure their employees do not go rogue,

That being said, be aware that the local Old Boys club will retaliate....

Check who issues the liquor license, report to them?

But definitely report it, anonymously. Whilst I too drank underage, I do accept it causes problems with anti-social behaviour, which in turn impacts far too many people’s lives.

I definitely think an anonymous call to the state liquor board is in call. The good ole boy retaliation was something I was worrying about, but hopefully the don't connect it to me.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Whilst I too drank underage

Its not possible to imagine you underage drinking. I'd imagined you came out of the womb as a beer swilling old fart.

There's obviously an ethical and morale obligation to report them.

However, from the perspective of someone who also owns businesses and plays by the rules, why should I play by them whilst others do not? Especially when they are doing so for pure benefit (revenue/profit), with very little potential of consequences? It always annoys me off, so rather than stoop to their level, I want them to be brought back to our level, ideally with a fairly memorable slap on the wrist as well to deter them and others from not beings immoral.

If people are talking about going over the department's head and reporting it to whatever liquor licencing system you have down there you can be pretty sure someone already has done it.

Has anyone tried bringing it up to the family that owns the store?

 cuda1179 wrote:
My business is a stone's throw from a local liquor store. This store has built a reputation of selling booze and tobacco to underage kids. I have personally witnessed my 17 year-old nephew doing just this, as he didn't see me literally standing right behind him. My friend's 16 year-old daughter got busted too. I recently caught an underage employee trying to chill a bottle of vodka in our walk in freezer for later that night , receipt still in the bag.

This is technically a locally owned business, but owned by a well to do family. They own a dozen businesses in town. A couple complaints have been made to the local police, but they seem somewhat uninterested. The schools know about it, and are doing what they can to punish students. Small town politics mean "certain" families get special treatment from the local PD, a fact admitted to by some of the officers, and I wonder if this has something to do with it.

Here is the ethical debate. Some of us want to go over the local police department's head and report them to the state. However if this is just a couple rogue employees it could cause trouble for the owners.

Not clear what the ethical debate is. Its the owners' business, it is their responsibility, it should be their 'trouble'

I'm not clear if you feel that should be exempt from trouble because they're 'locally owned' and that somehow means they're occupying some sort of perceived moral high ground, but since they're breaking the law and if the local police are somehow resistant to doing their job, it seems obvious that state agencies should be brought in.

Report it to the state and BATF.

Oh, also? Local media. There's usually a "troubleshooter hotline" or stuff like that where you can anonymously submit info.

Just to clear things up, the family is a bit "unapproachable". They don't really converse with the pleebs.

As the owner of a small business myself I know certain things are hard to catch, and good, trustworthy employees hard to find. While I agree that it is a bit of a double standard, I would feel less bad about ratting out a corporate owned store. At least then you aren't killing someone's livelyhood. Although this is far from their only source of income, so maybe I should just treat them as a company.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Just to clear things up, the family is a bit "unapproachable". They don't really converse with the pleebs.

As the owner of a small business myself I know certain things are hard to catch, and good, trustworthy employees hard to find. While I agree that it is a bit of a double standard, I would feel less bad about ratting out a corporate owned store. At least then you aren't killing someone's livelyhood. Although this is far from their only source of income, so maybe I should just treat them as a company.

Yeah, no one who works at a 'corporate business' relies on that job as their livelihood, and no chance they could be thrown under the bus for something going wrong.
'A bit' of a double standard indeed.

Their business, their employees, their responsibility. Simple As.

If the problem is genuine enough to report them, and it's having an active effect on your own life and business, holding back because your concern is that it will cause trouble for the owners or because they're well-to-do is just enabling the problem to continue. Report anonymously or consult with an attorney as to the best course of action.

Make that two recommendations for consulting an attorney.

If nothing else, for a few dollars HE can make the calls for you and hide your identity behind attorney/client privilege.

Just don't use one in the same town the business owners do business IN, as they will almost certainly have done business with that attorney and have bought his loyalty. Go out of town, the further the better.

But not to the state capital, as odds are if the family is wealthy and running shady businesses and corrupting the local police they've been in contact with lawyers there too.

BATF is probably the best bet, as who knows whether they've been influencing the state level officials.

If you're doing it out of spite then just do it.

If you're doing it because you're worried about those they are selling to then just do it.

If you're not being spiteful and they aren't hurting anyone, is it really a problem? I know as a 16 y/o I could get my hands on the alcohol I wanted. Closing down the safter "legitimate" sources would have meant I'd have gotten it from less savory places, but it wouldn't have stopped me getting it. By "protecting" me I'd have been exposed to more danger.

I saw look into reporting them to the local authority the issues such a license, they take that stuff seriously because its HUGE and if they get a tip and do not follow up on it, they can be in trouble.

I feel like it would be ethically questionable to let them continue getting away with it.

I agree with reporting it, but first double check youre not in an 80s action flick going up against the local Mr Big

If you feel like it is the good thing to do then go ahead, I would do it anonymously though as those owners seems to be some kind of big dogs in your community.
You don't want them to backlash at you.

Those people gave authorization to their employees to sell liquor to underage consumers IMO, if they already have a lot of businesses they might have the 'the more you earn the more you want'.mentality.

Then I would not care to cause trouble to the owners. I would much more care about employees losing their jobs.

If someone would have stopped me to buy booze as a kid I would be a different adult for sure.
Reporting them is the right stuff to do.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I definitely think an anonymous call to the state liquor board is in call. The good ole boy retaliation was something I was worrying about, but hopefully the don't connect it to me.

Place I worked at recently got backlash by the local "Old Boys Club" for something unrelated to us. They are going to find somebody to retaliate against, regardless.

We had food trucks less than a block from us that were breaking the rules for operation where they were. Somebody reported it and got them in trouble. Local radio station immediately accused our restaurant and the other one closest to the food trucks of calling it in. Told the boss about it and he just shrugged. Luckily, it didn't hurt business for us at all. But also, the "Old Boys Club" is seeing a lot of issues lately with their stranglehold of the local politics.

Good luck, I hope you piss in all their cheerios!

Well, I put in an anonymous email to the state. We'll see what happens now I guess. Justice works slowly in these parts.

Good luck, cuda - selling alcohol to kids is something that should result in more than a smack on the wrist.

How independent are the local press, or are they influenced by this family?

someone else mentioned also going to the media and thats not a bad idea, it's a LOOT harder to ignore an issue if it's appered on the 6 o clock news, and the local media station might just loooove a shot to take the "big local family" down a peg or two.

 Dysartes wrote:
Good luck, cuda - selling alcohol to kids is something that should result in more than a smack on the wrist.

How independent are the local press, or are they influenced by this family?

The local newspaper is more than willing to both not report on things, and strait out lie in order to smear opponents. They've actually faced a handful of liable lawsuits in the last few years.

Good luck. Keep us in the loop if you do not mind.

When it comes to taking on the Old Boys Club, I only have a few suggestions:

1. Start going to "every" Chamber of Commerce and City Council meeting. Chances are you will be the only one there, but it gets noticed real fast; and you start to have influence just because you show up.

2. Get real tight with all the business owners and organization leaders who are on the outside of the Old Boys Club to create a counter-bloc. Coupled with #1 and you start to get heard... a lot.

It is hard work, especially on top of running your own small business. I am so glad I am out of that game...... too much work!

Well, what kind of alcohol?

This probably won't make me many friends, but I always found it kind of weird how 18yo kids in the US are supposed to be mature enough to vote for a president and will get tried and convicted as an adult in case they do a crime, but they are not considered mature enough to grab a beer.

Personally I think if the liquor store gets closed, they will try to find other ways to acquire it which may include worse places/people and/or shoplifting.

Now if your neighbour is shipping 40% single malts or 60% double distilled berry extracts to 16 year olds that's a different question, that gak is powerful enough to kill an elephant from 100 feet away.

I always consider that the law has a letter and a spirit, and many times we lose scope of one in pursuit of the other.

if someone is maimed or killed by a drunk teen that you could have possibly prevented from buying alcohol are you able to deal with that?

 Matt Swain wrote:
if someone is maimed or killed by a drunk teen that you could have possibly prevented from buying alcohol are you able to deal with that?

Well that someone could have been maimed or killed by a drunk adult as well. Ban all alcohol?

Also, if a teen would maim or kill someone after having a beer, then I'd wager it wasn't the beer that made them do it. That's why I asked "what kind of alcohol".

topaxygouroun i wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
if someone is maimed or killed by a drunk teen that you could have possibly prevented from buying alcohol are you able to deal with that?

Well that someone could have been maimed or killed by a drunk adult as well. Ban all alcohol?

Not even vaguely the same thing.

Consider insurance underwriting.

It’s a complex process, based on factual reports and statistical likelihood.

Young drivers face higher premiums because they are, statistically, a higher risk. Confidence of youth, lack of experience, not knowing their own limits, showing off to impress would be partners etc.

A kid might have three or four drinks, and figure they’re fine for driving. But, it’s known and documented that the booze affects the reflexes, depth perception etc.

Someone older might be better able to weigh up the relevant risks, and if insistent on driving, at least adapt their driving style (less speed, wider berth when passing parked vehicles).

Regardless. If I knowingly sell someone underaged booze or narcotics, and they then decide to drive under the influence, there is guilt and proximate cause on me.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
Good luck, cuda - selling alcohol to kids is something that should result in more than a smack on the wrist.

How independent are the local press, or are they influenced by this family?

The local newspaper is more than willing to both not report on things, and strait out lie in order to smear opponents. They've actually faced a handful of liable lawsuits in the last few years.

That's unfortunate - nearby city-level media, maybe? People like a good expose, after all. However, probably too small-scale for state-level media.

How about state level press? Des Moines Register? Could collaborate on an investigative story with a state-level paper/media source as an anonymous source .

I would potentially also reach out to BATF. Mentioning that there have been multiple complaints to local authorities and they have done nothing in response or have retaliated against complainants might get some traction too, as its considered public corruption.