Counts As?.... Would you allow it?

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**Green is Best!**

So, I have a fantastically painted copy of this gorgeous Forgeworld model and I have no real use for it. It is waaaaaaaay too big to use as a bloodthirster. Someone suggested I try running it as a Chaos Knight. So, my question (and this may be the wrong forum, forgive me), is would you allow this to be used as a Chaos Knight?

If not, any recommendations on uses for it besides sitting on my bookshelf and keeping the other demon models in line?

Thanks in advance.

**Bilge Rat**

Lore-wise, there is a big difference between Chaos Knights and Daemons, and that is clearly the latter.

Ultimately it comes down to the people with whom you are playing. If you are having casual games with friends then it is cool as long as they are fine with it. However, in any sort of organised play it is very likely that you will not be allowed to use that model as a Chaos Knight as it is just too different.

Your best bet probably would be to run it as a Bloodthirster. Its size is pretty much always going to be a disadvantage, so people are less likely to object.

**Eipi10**

There are advantages and disadvantages to model size, it's not always clear if it gives you an advantage or not. So I wouldn't really care what you run it as, as long as it's appropriately powerful. One of the chaos melee knights would be fine, as would a fully kitted out exhaled bloodthirter (WL trait, relic); and one of the good, expensive bloodthirsters, not a discount one.

**Bilge Rat**

Eipi10 wrote:
There are advantages and disadvantages to model size, it's not always clear if it gives you an advantage or not.

If you are a bullet-magnet with limited shooting then it is usually a disadvantage. There might be small perks like blocking enemy units and zoning out more of the play area, but a greater daemon that allows just about every unit on the board to draw line of sight to it is probably going to have a bad day.

**Green is Best!**

What makes a BT an Exalted Bloodthirster?

Ironically, I have a super old GW bloodthirster model which is about the size of the current obliterator model. Maybe I just run the pair as bloodthirsters at the same time.....

**p5freak**

Stratagem from engine war.

**Super Ready**

Personally I'd be fine with it being a counts-as Knight. But then I'd also be cool with you running it as a Bloodthirster.
This is, mind you, largely because you actually have it painted - and I'm guessing it would be just about the only proxy you'd be using? So remembering that one model isn't WYSIWYG isn't too much to keep track of as the game progresses.

If you've got more going on besides that I need to try and keep track of, then I'd have an issue with it.

**ccs**

What makes you think its too large to be a Bloodthirster?
GW/FW has literally told you thats a Bloodthirster....

**insaniak**

ccs wrote:
What makes you think its too large to be a Bloodthirster?
GW/FW has literally told you thats a Bloodthirster....

I was wondering the same thing. It is admittedly a particularly large Bloodthirster, as An'ggrath is supposed to be a particularly beefcake example, but still a Bloodthirster.

**Argive**

Is it official GW/FW minature bloodthirster? Then its a bloodthirster..

**chimeara**

I have that model too, next to the new plastic bloodthirster they're about the same hight. Angrath has much bigger wings. But they're about the same size. Also they're on much different bases. Bloodthirster are on large ovals and Angrath is a 130mm round.

As far as count as. I could see using as a CK. But, for what it's worth my opinion is it could be considered modeling advantage as Angrath is much bigger than a knight, which could give you a larger shooting arc.

**Vaktathi**

I don't really see any problem counting that as a Chaos Knight really, it wouldn't bother me as long as I knew that.

That said, as noted, it's a bloodthirster, admittedly a very large one, but that's what it actually is and it is an official actual model from Games Workshop (it just happens to be their botique line), and I don't see any problem with just using it as an actual (impressive) bloodthirster if you wanted to.

**Argive**

Maybe spruce it up with being an exalted bloodthirstier bloodthirster with extra "blood" in

**Matt Swain**

I'd accept it as a lord of war class character or at least your army commander. I'm all for counts as.

**Void__Dragon**

Matt Swain wrote:
I'd accept it as a lord of war class character or at least your army commander. I'm all for counts as.

That model is of An'ggrath, who is in fact a Lord of War class character and, according to comparison photos I just looked up, about the size of a knight anyway. So I wouldn't mind it.

**Dysartes**

...why not just use it as An'ggrath, assuming he keeps his rules when the FW book comes out?

**Grimtuff**

Counts as is really for off the wall conversions and other such things that cannot quite fit anywhere else. That is the stock Bloodthirster mini from FW, so no.

It strikes me as extracting the urine a little of the spirit of the rule as demonstrated ITT people will question why you are not running it as a BT when the BT has perfectly fine rules in the current game.

**Dudeface**

Dysartes wrote:
...why not just use it as An'ggrath, assuming he keeps his rules when the FW book comes out?

This was my thoughts, no need for a counts as imo, just run him for what he is.

If your really want to use him in smaller games then yeah exalted bloodthirster.

**vipoid**

If you were running it as a melee-Knight, sure. I guess.

However, if I'm being shot to bits from the other side of the table by a model wielding only an axe and a whip, then (as Grimtuff to eloquently put it) I'd start to feel that a significant quantity of urine was being extracted.

To be honest, it's one of those situations where I'd like to see at least a bit of conversion work. Like replacing the current weapons with guns, or mounting guns somewhere else (they don't even have to be the *right* guns - just so long as it clearly has some big cannons or whatever it's supposed to be firing). Maybe a few other mechanical parts as well? Just *something* to make it not look like a stock Bloodthirster.

(I should add, though, that I'd have no issue whatsoever with you using it as a Bloodthirster of any variety).

**Duskweaver**

I'd have no problem with you using that model as a melee-equipped Chaos Knight. Count the axe as a reaper chainsword, the whip as a thunderstrike gauntlet (the 'hurl the thing you just killed at another target' attack works just as well for a Balrog whip as a giant robot hand), and say the meltagun/heavy stubber is some sort of daemonic breath attack.

But I am extremely easy-going when it comes to 'counts as' in general and will happily tell someone to their face to feth off if they start whining about 'modeling for advantage' or similar tournament-mindset stupidity.

**Jidmah**

There is no such things as "too big to count as a bloodthirster".

**H.B.M.C.**

Green is Best! wrote:
Would you allow it?

As a Knight? No. It's a Bloodthirster.

Use it as a Bloodthirster.

**Pyroalchi**

from my personal view: sure why not. I would prefer if it was a CC-Chaos Knight, but if I need to I can live with just imagining he shoots some Kind of "psy bolts" or something if he serves as shooty Knight for some games.

Then again my army is also pretty cobbled together, so I have to rely on a similar attitude from my opponent with some of the models.

**Matt Swain**

Guy if someone makes a rhino out of cardboard, gets it at least pretty close to the right size and shape and spraypaints it a chapter color, it goes on the table AFAIC.

**ArcaneHorror**

I wouldn't mind, no, but An'ggrath has some pretty sick rules and will absolutely demolish anything he crashes into. Also, his whip has a twelve-inch attack range, so if you use the Denizens of the Warp, which is optimal for bloodthirsters, you can do a lot of damage straight out the gate. Lore-wise, this guy is actually Skarbrand's replacement after the banishment, and the two are mortal enemies, though Khorne won't let them fight as they are too valuable.

**Grimtuff**

Matt Swain wrote:
Guy if someone makes a rhino out of cardboard, gets it at least pretty close to the right size and shape and spraypaints it a chapter color, it goes on the table AFAIC.

That is not what is being discussed though. As he is using a Rhino (regardless of what it is made from) as a Rhino.

This is about someone using something with no conversion work and already having perfectly adequate rules as something else entirely.

**Tyranid Horde**

No, I wouldn't allow that to be a counts as chaos knight, that's a bloodthirster, albeit a big one.

**some bloke**

I would probably prefer to see it used with some conversions - though it depends on the context. If you asked me if you can use it as a knight as you're thinking of buying a knight and want to know how well it does, then yes, please do try before you buy. If you wanted to only ever use it as a knight but not do anything to convert it, I might feel after a few games like you should go buy a knight.

I'd also be put off by the wings - knights can't fly, and this model clearly can.

**Cybtroll**

I would definitively allows it. It's more or less the appropriate size and is a GW model to boot. Yes, yes, and again yes.

That said, it will probably be better used as some specific FW Knight, a Lord of Skulls (ok, it doesn't have ranged weapons, but for Christ sake it's a demon, it may have a daemonic roar that count as weapons) or something similar.

**Platuan4th**

Aangrath isn't really that much bigger than a "standard" 'Thirster, despite being Exalted. He's got bulk and wing span over it, but for LoS purposes, they're pretty comparable. I'd say no to Knight Count As.