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Made in ca
Blood Angel Neophyte Undergoing Surgeries




I came in at 8th, and some of the veteran players have been regaling me with tales of 2++/2+++ rerollable farseers and infinite daemons from 7th, so I'm wondering what other tales of pure cancer exist from the seventh age?

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. - Douglas Adams
 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




Somewhat related to the 2+ re-rollable saves - but yiu didn’t have to be “on the board” to have an effect “on the board”, so you could have a literally unkillable (because he’s not actually on the board) Fatewaver have an effect on something that was on the board and have no counter to it. Little foggy on the specifics now but it was all part of the Demon Flying Circus list from that age.

There as also the Mechanicus Formation that gave them an insane amount of upgrades for free. Forget what it was called but they could get several hundred points of upgrades for free just because of the formation.

7th was, IMO, the worst the game has ever been.

Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







Tycho wrote:
Somewhat related to the 2+ re-rollable saves - but yiu didn’t have to be “on the board” to have an effect “on the board”, so you could have a literally unkillable (because he’s not actually on the board) Fatewaver have an effect on something that was on the board and have no counter to it. Little foggy on the specifics now but it was all part of the Demon Flying Circus list from that age...


Related: This got FAQed out quite quickly (off-the-table fix, no allied transports), but I always found the idea of putting Azrael in a Valkyrie and giving a whole flyer wing a 4++ amusing.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut





Played GSC vs a Chaos player. All my stuff rolled 5's and 6's for Cult Ambush, so all got to either show up and shoot (effectively shooting twice), or show up outside of 3" and could charge that turn. I killed his whole army in a turn. He had a Raptor Gunship, but since it didn't start on the board, he ended his turn with no models on the board and lost before he even got to do anything. That game sucked.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 02:49:00


 Galef wrote:
If you refuse to use rock, you will never beat scissors.
 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

Wave Serpents.

/thread

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





SirGunslinger wrote:
I came in at 8th, and some of the veteran players have been regaling me with tales of 2++/2+++ rerollable farseers and infinite daemons from 7th, so I'm wondering what other tales of pure cancer exist from the seventh age?


My favorite was a formation that allowed a group of guard psykers to summon infinite daemons from a little summoning circle.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Denison, Iowa

How about the Space Marine formation that let you have all your dedicated transports for FREE!!!!

Just take as many minimum sized squads as you can, then take maxed-out Razorbacks. You'd have so many lascannon, stormbolter, and Hunter Killer missile shots you'll be using them to kill of medium infantry squads.
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

Mostly:

- D weapons
- Re-rollable 2++
- Invisibility
- Grav weapons
- Armies with 300 points of free stuff


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 cuda1179 wrote:
How about the Space Marine formation that let you have all your dedicated transports for FREE!!!!



IMHO the absolute worst thing about 7th edition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 08:31:52


Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in ch
Warped Arch Heretic of Chaos





Purge formation for the Purge warband combined with the Vraksian supplement because GW was SCHTOOOOOOPID and thought that Formations shouldn't be locked to corresponding Factions, so that you could R&H count as with Purge formation.

what was the problem you ask? well ALL templates lingered and counted as dangerous terrain. Vraksian Supplement warlord trait was able to count as troops thudd guns and heavy mortars aswell as elite slots usable for earthshaker batteries...

yeah... you could if you got first turn tape down more or less the whole board in dangerous terrain, all because GW was lazy and didn't bind formations to Specific factions...

Birb circus... fateweaver spam...

Eldar summoning daemons ,because gw just had to feth up one of their better concepts with the malefic discipline by handing it out as a REGULAR psyker discipline...

2000 pts vs 2x00 due to free transports or upgrades because formations.


And best off all, the outright local ban on formations thank god for that.

Invisibility was still broken... making regular psy and especially invisibility containing one far superior to faction specific psy...

Taudar and other ally shennanigans...

Did i miss something?

yeah codex specific issues, scatbikes f.e.

A legions supplement that was removed , what 8 months after release because 8th decided to completly redesign 40k. Which was fine and dandy, and actually improved the game but GW did GW bloat AND consequently streamlined for some vets too much in regards to baseline mechanics..


https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

In the 41st millennium there is only overpriced hamberders.

 
   
Made in cz
Regular Dakkanaut




My main opponent in the 7th was alternating between jinking untouchable Ravenwing, a Greenwing full of free razorbacks and grav guns, and a Necron decurion.

The second most frequent opponent played GKs with their disgusting force weapons and "MCs" that were infinitely better than my Nid monsters, and cheaper.

I can't decide which of those was worst, each one was cancer for a different reason.
   
Made in de
Battlefield Tourist






Nuremberg

I remember looking at 7e, going to check if what I was reading was actually real, and deciding that 40K just wasn't going to be something I ever played again.

I think it was the stupid formations that really got me. I often think people are wrong for saying that GW write rules to sell kits, but stuff like the free points for formations and the awful daemon summoning rules do show that sometimes they do write rules just to sell kits.

   
Made in gb
Fighter Ace





Oh I had loads of fun in 7th.
I once joined a tournament on the promise that it was 100% friendly and 0% competitive. So I turned up with a 0% competitive fun list, complete with written backstory.
Even the guy that swore that to me to get me to play turned out to be playing a disgusting Iron Hands biker list with an unkillable Captain and Knight support.

Other highlights include a Tzeentch Daemon summoning party, who ended up with more models than he started with.
An Eldar Wraithknight/Scatbike army. Against whom I killed 1 single Bike and nothing else, such was the force with which I was rolled.
An invisible Scream Star with 2++ rerollable invulns and free attacks for just moving past you.

7th was great fun for us fluffy players.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 cuda1179 wrote:
How about the Space Marine formation that let you have all your dedicated transports for FREE!!!!
Gladius.
880pts to get 50 marines, 10 melta(infernum) razorbacks, a chaplain, captain centos(more free stuff), and a bonus combi-disintegrator marine. All of these units had obsec and game long rerolls.
In context you could would outnumber an identically composed sisters force 3:2.
And it wasn't even considered a particularly powerful formation.

With the admech variant you were looking at roughly 500 points of free wargear from a 2000pt list, though if you wanted you could easily squeeze more from less.
Aside from the free gear everything got to combine special rules from both books(including the knight) and just rolled onto the board with +3 cover saves, rerolls to hit, +3 to BS score, ignore gets hot, etc. Optionally throw in servitors(free plasma cannons), allied drop pods from a suitable FoC-breaking formation, and Cawl himself.

Other memorable formations included -
-skyhammer (deepstrike and shoot devastators, deepstrike and charge with assault marines - with extra bonuses on top)
-necron decurion (the original combo-formation namer, your army will not die)
-eldar aspect host (have you taken at least three aspect warrior squads? Yes? Just give them all 2+ to hit then, for free, because why not. Not super-powerful, just highlighting how poorly formations were written)
-vraks artillery stuff in general (your scoring units are toughness 7 artillery formations with dozens of wounds for next to nothing, you can shoot into combat and turn the board into dangerous terrain. Or just take infinite infantry if you prefer)


And outside of formations you had daemonic summoning where you would end the game with an army worth about twice what you started with, invisible deathstars, and some truly terrible power balancing between books - you could give the weakest armies double points and they'd still get wasted by the tournament lists thanks to a combination of lacking tools to deal with certain elements (invisibility, summoning) and just raw lack of ability for the same points.

As for wave serpents - I still have an old image someone here posted showing how many guard transports (and attached heavy weapons teams) you'd need to match the firepower of a single eldar transport at the time (and by a long shot the transports were not the strongest thing the eldar were bringing to the table) :
[Thumb - serpent.jpg]
wave serpent vs guard

   
Made in gb
Khorne Chosen Marine Riding a Juggernaut




Southampton, UK

My friend and I got started in 6th edition by splitting the Dark Vengeance box set. My CSMs were fairly evenly matched against his Dark Angels, and were still fairly balanced when he moved to Blood Angels.

Then he bought an Eldar wraith host and scatterbike army.

The first time I played against it, I was effectively neutralised on turn 1 and tabled on turn 2. Didn't kill a single model of his, as far as I recall. Even he was shocked.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






We mustn't forget though, that 7th was far from unique in it's awfulness.

Every edition has been terrible in one form or another.
   
Made in it
Stormin' Stompa




Italy

 kirotheavenger wrote:

7th was great fun for us fluffy players.


It was horrible if not flat out impossible to play for pick-up gamers. However garagehammer between friends, or fluffy players in general, who were able to tone up/down their lists in order to get a balanced game did actually work, and was a lot of fun, like any other edition of 40k.

Tons of online batte reports from the most popular channels like Miniwargaming can still prove it.

Orks 7000
Space Wolves 4000
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Lord Damocles wrote:
Every edition has been terrible in one form or another.
There are degrees of terrible.

In 7th a local guard player wanted to know what the fuss was about the mechanicus war convocation. I spotted him the first turn, because it was the only one he would get.
   
Made in gb
Fighter Ace





 Blackie wrote:
 kirotheavenger wrote:

7th was great fun for us fluffy players.


It was horrible if not flat out impossible to play for pick-up gamers. However garagehammer between friends, or fluffy players in general, who were able to tone up/down their lists in order to get a balanced game did actually work, and was a lot of fun, like any other edition of 40k.

Tons of online batte reports from the most popular channels like Miniwargaming can still prove it.

You're right, although I've never been able to find that sort of reliable tight-knight group of like minded individuals so 7th was just getting the snot beaten out of me on an unholy scale.
My enthusiasm for 40k has never recovered from the beating it took in 7th.

All editions have had their weaknesses, but 7th's seemed by far the most egregious that I've ever experienced. Albeit I only started mid-way through 5th.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 11:44:59


 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

Ok I agree that 7th was full of OP cheese, but I don't get why Wave Serpents were so bad? IIRC, their shield dropped penetrating hits to glancing on a 2+, but they still only had AV12 and 3HP. What's the godawful OP-ness I appear to be missing?

   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Valkyrie wrote:
Ok I agree that 7th was full of OP cheese, but I don't get why Wave Serpents were so bad? IIRC, their shield dropped penetrating hits to glancing on a 2+, but they still only had AV12 and 3HP. What's the godawful OP-ness I appear to be missing?
See the image above. Toughness aside it had the firepower of four chimeras and six heavy weapon teams combined - 7e Eldar could inflict a devastating alpha strike with their light transport vehicles.
   
Made in gb
Fighter Ace





I think potentially the issue is the 6th edition Wave Serpent.
They could choose to fire off their serpent shield to get d6+1 S7 AP- hits ignoring cover at 60".
Doing so would mean they lost the defensive shield until their next turn (when they could even fire it off again).
Tbh that doesn't sound too crazy to me, even in addition to the two cannon-scale weapons the vehicle got.
The 7th edition codex even nerfed it to 60" range and it's gone forever, rather than recharging.
I certainly don't see how that's equivalent to 4 Chimeras though.
(assuming the old 1d4chan page is accurate).

I recall it was always the Wrathknights and Jetbikes that were the real problem child of Eldar.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 12:33:51


 
   
Made in gb
Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander






London

A.T. wrote:
 Valkyrie wrote:
Ok I agree that 7th was full of OP cheese, but I don't get why Wave Serpents were so bad? IIRC, their shield dropped penetrating hits to glancing on a 2+, but they still only had AV12 and 3HP. What's the godawful OP-ness I appear to be missing?
See the image above. Toughness aside it had the firepower of four chimeras and six heavy weapon teams combined - 7e Eldar could inflict a devastating alpha strike with their light transport vehicles.


Going off the image the WS appears to have the TL Shuriken Cannon and TL Shuriken Rifle. Even with the shield (which is D6+1 so not reliable output) and the +1BS how does it compare against 4x Multilasers, 4x Heavy Flamers and 6 Autocannons? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I genuinely don't see it.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba





Oh yeah, superheavies (i.e. everything over the arbitrary threshold of 300 points) had a special attack called "Stomp."

You'd put down a small blast touching the base, and anything under the blast was hit by the Stomp. Then you rolled a D6

1 - did nothing
2-5 it did like a decently big hit
6 - all models under the template were just removed from play, gonzo, done, no discussion.

I remember I had a guy talking about how GREAT 30k was and how much more balanced it was and it's like a whole different game, so I brought out my 30k mechanicum stuff, and I had 2500 points. but he wanted to play 3000 points, so I was like - look, knights are in the game right? I'll just go upstairs and get my Knight, it's a FW model, it matches the Mechanicum, it's not quite 500pts but whatever, we'll call it even.

The super-duper mega ultra primarch of the whoever the feths I don't know space marine gak gets into combat with the knight, does his sixteen billion attacks with rerolls and de-rolls and +1s and I have to serve my opponent finger sandwiches special rules, leaving the knight with 1HP left. And then the knight stomps and rolls a 6 and he's just gone. And then all the powerfists from the primarch's bodyguard go off, kill the knight, and when superheavies explode they put down this gigantic literal pie plate of a blast that has a similar rule - that one also rolled a 6 and killed all the special bodyguard guys.

The whole rest of the game he spent grumbling about how if I hadn't brought '40k bs' into 30k it'd be a perfect game.

Speaking of the giant knight pie plate - I also played a game in 7th right when Knights came out in plastic where I took my Admech and 1 FW knight against my buddy's full army of plastic knights, and the game ended with 2 knights simultaneously exploding each other, and those two explosions exploded a third and fourth knight nearby, and in all that what was left of the mechanicum got totally wiped out so we called it a tie with no models left on the board.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/12 12:48:09


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




I think Wave Serpents being broken was more a 6th edition thing. I feel WKs/Scatbikes/Spiders put them largely in the shade in 7th. Then Ynnari just made the edition's final moments a joke.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Valkyrie wrote:
Going off the image the WS appears to have the TL Shuriken Cannon and TL Shuriken Rifle. Even with the shield (which is D6+1 so not reliable output) and the +1BS how does it compare against 4x Multilasers, 4x Heavy Flamers and 6 Autocannons? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I genuinely don't see it.
A mix of range, rerolls granted by the scatter laser, and ignoring cover. Going from memory a bit - the scatter laser and shuriken cannon were combined about the equal of the multilasers, while the shield averaged out against the six autocannons.

The bigger problem was that 6-7e eldar could happily go without a single wave serpent and not compromise their list.
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






I remember my last game of 7th and the reason to drop 40k at that time.

Lots of wave serpents with scatter lasers. Scatter bikes. Invincible seer council.

I got first turn and move up with an army from the first new ork codex since 4th. Even had the battlewagon formation that allowed me to scout-move for turn 2 charges from the supplement that shall not be named.
And that's all I did, 3000 points of orks were dead after his first shooting phase.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/12 14:11:35


Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in us
Mysterious Techpriest




Blackie brought up invisibility. Until now, I had forgotten how horrible that was. Everyone was trying to find different ways to get it, and it was the one and only time I can recall where Belakor was popular. Chaos didn't have a lot of ways to get invisibility so Belakor was one of their few reliable ways to get it. Just slap it on whatever unit you don't want to die and bam. It can't die (because it can't be shot). WHat was that one formation where a Dark Angels character could make a silly amount of Guard troops untouchable?

And others have mentioned this, but the whole deomon summoning thing - You could have a Maleus Inuisitor actually summon demons, but it was ok from a fluff standpoint because it was "sanctic" summoning.

Then there was the psychic phase itself. 7th was the height of "Randumb". You rolled dice to see how many dice you would get to roll for casting your power. If you had more than one psyker it took forever.

7th was very much classic GW because, in a lot of ways, it was full of good ideas (the summoning thing was not one of them) and some of the worst execution I've personally ever seen in a wargame. The formations are the perfect example. Many of them were "good" in that they really did reward players for taking fluffy lists. The problem was, they made certain armies wildly OP.


Edit: I just googled ablutions and apparently it does not including dropping a duece. I should have looked it up early sorry for any confusion. - Baldsmug

Psiensis on the "good old days":
"Kids these days...
... I invented the 6th Ed meta back in 3rd ed.
Wait, what were we talking about again? Did I ever tell you about the time I gave you five bees for a quarter? That's what you'd say in those days, "give me five bees for a quarter", is what you'd say in those days. And you'd go down to the D&D shop, with an onion in your belt, 'cause that was the style of the time. So there I was in the D&D shop..." 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut







The biggest cheeses in 7th came mostly from the army building rules. The core rules were generally fine. It's why 30k thrives on basically the same rule-set (with a few minor tweaks, GTFO Invisibility).

But my GOD the army building rules. You had random stuff like:
- Necrons got Reanimation Protocols on models that were not priced to have it.
- Tau units could hit rear armor on tanks facing them.
- Space Marines got free transports.
- Baneblade companies could annihilate huge chunks of the board with their formation rules.

There was just utter nonsense in the army building rules. As for core rule flaws that actually caused cheese (as opposed to being inconvenient):
- The interaction between Allied units and Primary transports was always shenanigany (Allies no longer can embark on transports at all in 30k, even ICs) and could be cheesed (Skitarii Drop Pods!).
- The Invisibility psychic power (completely removed in 30k)
- The interaction between the Independent Character rules, the Wound Allocation rules, and army building rules. (Addressed to some extent in 30k which of course has completely different army building rules).
Superfriends was essentially a huge amount of characters all blobbed up sharing their buffs.
1) IC rules meant that characters who shared buffs were incredibly powerful tools, though not OP the way they were "intended".
2) Wound Allocation rules meant that the toughest model could always be guaranteed to take hits unless you surrounded the enemy.
3) Army building rules got so ridiculous that you could bring a huge amount of characters. At the start of the edition, an army could have 3 - 2 Primary HQs and 1 Allied HQ. But certain formations and armies (Space Wolves *cough*) just ignored most of that by the end of the edition.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/12 14:18:24


 
   
Made in de
Waaagh! Ork Warboss on Warbike






Ah right, I forgot the centurion detachment. The joy of charging 20 necron warriors with boyz and then losing all of them without causing a single casualty. Brilliant!

Oh, and feth challenged, so much. If you had a marine sergeant with a power sword, you had the choice of either deactivating it or taking a high chance of it getting killed.

You're probably right though Unit, the worst parts of 7th were found in codices, supplements and formations, not in the BRB.

Earth is not flat
Vaccines work
We've been to the moon
Climate change is real
Chemtrails aren't a thing
Evolution is a fact
Orks are not a melee army
Stand up for science!
 
   
Made in de
Nurgle Chosen Marine on a Palanquin




BRB also had deep flaws, especially compared to 8th. The most obvious ones were between monstrous creatures and vehicles, vehicles overall were mostly made of paper. You think vehicles in 8th or 9th edition are squishy? Imagine them having no save at all and only 3 hull points.
Balance wize I agree though that formations pronounced the bad basic rules. No wonder 6th and 7 th Edition nearly killed GW, and keeping 7th Edition rules basically killed HH.
The Necron player in our group stopped using Decurion after we realized he would lose no units against my CSM. He sometimes used it against Tau which had similar cheese. With Traitor Legions Chaos could keep up but that was half a year before the Edition was replaced.
I did like my Nurgle Daemons' Tallyband formation actually. I don't recall it being particularly powerful, but it made the infamous Warp storm table pretty reliable.

I never played with or against it but Space Marine psykers moving terrain pieces around, with models standing on these sounded.... fun.
   
 
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