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Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/07/19 19:33:54


 
   
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Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?
   
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I suspect that dakka guns are assault.
   
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Weird how every single new Codex is OP and broken. Almost like stuff designed for the new edition of the game is good in that edition.
   
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The character looks strong, rest of the Ork leaks/reveals seem decidedly meh to be honest. Only time will tell but I think Orks will be decent but not overbearing like really most of the 9th Codexes so far. Only Dark Eldar seem to be the outlier, maybe AdMech too. So I'm unsure why you think every new Codex brings something broken.
   
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Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


honestly the great white squigg seems like the best unit in the codex. but of note for the 4 mortals, its the squig's attacks rolls. if i recall correctly 3 rolls to hit, then rolls to wound and any roll of a 6 stops the attack sequence and does 4 mortals instead

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 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


honestly the great white squigg seems like the best unit in the codex. but of note for the 4 mortals, its the squig's attacks rolls. if i recall correctly 3 rolls to hit, then rolls to wound and any roll of a 6 stops the attack sequence and does 4 mortals instead


Yep, it can only trigger for those 3 attacks.

Don't get me wrong, he's incredible, but it's not all of his attacks that can trigger it.

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Congrats, you've spotted part of the pattern.

It generally goes as follows:
1) release broken/op stuff.
2) let it ride for a bit to sell those models,
3) listen to the sobbing & bitching of armchair designers going on about how x ruins tourney events that most will never attend.
4) once sales have hit some selected #, nerf said broken/op units & blow smoke up everyones arse about something slipping through playtesting, unforseen interactions, blah blah blah.
   
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 Sasori wrote:
 G00fySmiley wrote:
Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


honestly the great white squigg seems like the best unit in the codex. but of note for the 4 mortals, its the squig's attacks rolls. if i recall correctly 3 rolls to hit, then rolls to wound and any roll of a 6 stops the attack sequence and does 4 mortals instead


Yep, it can only trigger for those 3 attacks.

Don't get me wrong, he's incredible, but it's not all of his attacks that can trigger it.


yup and unless i am reading it wrogn its 4 mortals and the attack sequence for that bite end so in theory you could do more dmg by not rolling any 6's but just hitting and regular wounds if not saved. wording is a bti off though it might be that specific attack only not all 3 for that squig biting

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I think it's working as intended. The churn and burn crowd buy it because it's powerful and the hobbyists buy it because they like the look. Personally I buy stuff and start armies without even thinking about the rules so there's no such thing as a "broken" release for me.
   
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Cj4594 wrote:
It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.
Forgeworld went through phases of that, which is one of the main reasons they were so maligned in the past (alongside some factions getting a hundred releases and others getting one if they were lucky). "Experimental rules" - aka valid for a couple of tournaments.

GW have traditionally been more escalation based, rolling back between editions is a newer thing for them.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/19 20:33:55


 
   
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ccs wrote:
Congrats, you've spotted part of the pattern.

It generally goes as follows:
1) release broken/op stuff.
2) let it ride for a bit to sell those models,
3) listen to the sobbing & bitching of armchair designers going on about how x ruins tourney events that most will never attend.
4) once sales have hit some selected #, nerf said broken/op units & blow smoke up everyones arse about something slipping through playtesting, unforseen interactions, blah blah blah.


Right! And we'll just cherry pick and ignore everything else as usual!

   
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If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

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 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.
   
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 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


Why not both?
We know malice from gw cue a certain eldar thingy..
We also know gw is incompetent quite often.
The bean counters malice is separate from the incompetence.

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Feels like a bait title, to be honest.

It can be demonstrated quite easily that newly released models have no guarantee to get OP or even just competitive rules.

People who think that have their opinion clouded by their gripes with GW.

So far the Ork player resonance seems to be that the book is a lot of nerf and little buffs. One good unit is not enough to justify the premise of this thread.

Let's wait and see? If they end up somewhere between Necrons / SM and Sisters, I'm happy.

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Every codex GW ever managed to release was broken in some way, either strong or weak. Part of that is because balancing dozens of units and accompanying special rules and faction rules is practically impossible. But more importantly, they just don't try to make a tightly balanced tournament ruleset. They write rules for a beer and pretzels game to play with friends. And it's never been more than that and it will, in all likelihood, never will.

   
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It's a combination of things:

A.) There's definitely some codex creep happening at the moment, though that hasn't always been the case with new books. (Anyone remember the 7th edition ork and drukhari books?) The 9th edition books seem to have more raw power than the 8th edition books, so then you have to bear that nuance in mind. Is the new thing overpowered compared only to 8th edition stuff or compared to 9th edition stuff as well? If the former but not the latter, then the new thing is probably balanced against the oncoming environment.

B.) New and heavily revised units, especially if they aren't just slight variations on more established units, are just inherently easy to mess up. It's easy for new code to be buggy. It's easy for new cooking recipes to come out odd. It's easy for new rules to be too strong/weak. Eradicators were too good. The Toxicrene and Maleceptor were too bad.

C.) The playerbase tends to freak out about any new rules regardless of how powerful they actually are. Partly because the unit's selling points are apparent on paper. Partly because GW has been known to release OP things in the past (see points A and B). Partly because, frankly, people don't always know how to play against a new option. There have been plenty of times when a new unit comes out, I get my teeth kicked in a couple of times, and then I realize that I need to do X mid-game or possibly start valuing weapons that are good against the new unit more highly.

And it's generally a mix of all the above. Newkhari have some obviously broken things that were quickly FAQ'd to be more reasonable (see: Dark Techno Liquifiers),Some of their heavily revised stuff has been getting tweaked (see: Drazhar). But also their win rate (to my understanding) has been steadily dropping to a more reasonable level as people get used to them and as the meta comes to contain something other than marines and necrons.
   
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 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?
   
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 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.
   
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Wyldhunt wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.


she got a re-work, we've always had Lelith as a model though...
   
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 Gert wrote:
Weird how every single new Codex is OP and broken. Almost like stuff designed for the new edition of the game is good in that edition.


That isn't always true. Historically, I'm not even sure that's true on average.

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 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.


she got a re-work, we've always had Lelith as a model though...


If you're talking about models for new DE units (not just resculpts) then you'll be looking back 11 years to find one.

 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


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I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
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 vipoid wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
Wyldhunt wrote:
 asdrubeal vect124 wrote:
 Castozor wrote:
 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

This for sure. Look at the DG and even Dark Eldar release, we only got 2 and 1 new model(s) respectively but they were all decidedly meh. Same for half the new Necron and SM stuff, the real truth is probably that GW barely knows what will or won't be broken on release and just kinda throw gak at the wall to see what sticks.


for personal curiousity, what new dark eldar model did we get?

Lelith.


she got a re-work, we've always had Lelith as a model though...


If you're talking about models for new DE units (not just resculpts) then you'll be looking back 11 years to find one.


yeah i believe it, we're not GW's favored son Spesh MAhrens XD
   
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Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.


except every new mini release so far this edition has been meh. That said GW seems to be dedicated to making strong CODICES



^ this seems to be the mentality of 9th edition

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Rihgu wrote:
Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?


6 attacks (actually 7 thanks to +1 from their ability) at WS2+, S7, AP-2, Damage 3. Then an additional bonus 3 attacks at WS2+, S7. AP-3, Damage 3. Then there's the bonus ability for 4 mortals on 6's.

The kicker? It's 170 points, and this is before factoring any kind of detachment abilities, faction abilities, psychic powers, or any other buffing abilities.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 00:43:17


 
   
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GW seems to fail to realize that folks will laser-in on that stuff that works, generally make the stuff that works into "too good."

But for every item that comes up needing a good nerfing, five to ten times that stuff isn't up to snuff. Unfortunately, GW tends to take the nerfhammer to it all, good or bad.

And also a lot of times people get caught off guard by a new ability and/or unit, but solutions are found to a good number of those initial shockers.

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 Gert wrote:
Weird how every single new Codex is OP and broken. Almost like stuff designed for the new edition of the game is good in that edition.

Codex creep has never been this 'consistent' before though. Yes, there were many cases of it, but not the next codex after the other in almost all cases being so brazenly top of the curve.
   
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Jarms48 wrote:
Rihgu wrote:
Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?


6 attacks (actually 7 thanks to +1 from their ability) at WS2+, S7, AP-2, Damage 3. Then an additional bonus 3 attacks at WS2+, S7. AP-3, Damage 3. Then there's the bonus ability for 4 mortals on 6's.

The kicker? It's 170 points, and this is before factoring any kind of detachment abilities, faction abilities, psychic powers, or any other buffing abilities.


Drazhar gets effectively 10 attacks at S6 AP3/4 D3 or 20 S5 AP3/4 D2 with WS2,2+/4++, can grant fight last with a LD check, and +1 to wound - that's 135. DE were 58% this past weekend.

Morvenn Vahl is strong, but doesn't seem to be breaking down the walls.

To me there looks to be two or three truly problematic units in the game right now and that's about it. This guy is scary, but guess what? He's so much overkill so you can feed him trash and it just doesn't matter how many bonus MW het gets.

And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/07/20 02:32:41


   
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 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...


Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?
   
 
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