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Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yufzbEWa9TQ

No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.

Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?
   
Made in au
Dakka Veteran




I think this is a fantastic idea. Made so much worse when you consider the fact that they are taken as children, many chapters expect their initiates to die during training, they're indoctrinated, and are heavily genetically modified to no longer be human.

Could you imagine the rage and frustration a marine might feel considering how long they've been waiting to be used as an instrument of the Emperor only to be denied? As other Imperial factions could easily do without said marines.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/10 23:34:54


 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




There's probably enough war around for them to have their fair share of action. Their job might be less glamorous than they thought and consist of extanded period of boredom between missions, but they certainly face combat often enough.

I would also like to point out that in the first Dawn of War video game, Space Marines have line that became a meme "Heresy grows from idleness!" which they state when you order them to move around. It seems that they are keenly aware that waiting and doing nothing is one of the hardest thing they have to suffer through.
   
Made in pl
Longtime Dakkanaut





Vatsetis wrote:
Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?

Population, yes. Infrastructure, no. There is always a lot of demand for someone to go in and remove the enemy commanders so the mop up forces can destroy enemy with infantry guns, not indiscriminate artillery strikes ruining irreplaceable stuff.

Also, SM are independent, and have fleets faster than anything else Imperium has. If they are first to emergency, local SM commander can do whatever he wants and no one is able to tell him otherwise. If he wants to do surgical strike or full on infantry battle, that's what his forces will execute and they will most likely be done and gone before Navy/IG arrives to mop up.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Vatsetis wrote:
Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yufzbEWa9TQ

No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.

Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?


for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.

secondly because the marines would operate in CONJUNCTION with orbital support (there's a reason why space marines have had an "orbital strike" ability since at least 5th edition)

I imagine Marines useally soften a target up with an orbital strike and then drop pod in to root out anyone who managed to escape to bunkers etc






Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.


Half of the Adeptus Astartes rebelled because they felt daddy didn't like them enough. I think they are absolute man babies or at severe risk of man baby syndrome. Also it's not a case of man baby in the video above. It's a case of "I have worked and suffered for nothing".

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 02:30:13


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





BTW Vartis, I gotta ask, you're sure posting an aweful lot of passiver agressive "durr marines suxorz! and they're illogical" posts. You got a purpose for this or are you just trolling?

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Vatsetis wrote:


Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?


You can't use 'nuke the site from orbit, it's the only way to be sure' to acheive every tactical objective.

For example, it doesn't really work for:

'Take the enemy VIP prisoner.we need to interrogate them'.

'Rescue the governor'.

'Sabotage this objective. It's 30km below the surface so our nukes can't get it'.

'We need the infrastructure intact. Its an ad mech facility so we can't just drop an airstrike on its head'.

'Optics. Zometimes the emperors justice needs the 'personal touch'. Seeing us whip his head off his shoulders with a chsinsword sends a far stronger message than turning the city to glass'.

'...because I want to tear the [bleeps] apart with my bear hands!'

'Yeah, we've used up all our nukes. Captain was a bit gung-ho earlier and expended all our ordnance. We gotta whip these buggers the old fashioned way.gtqb your chainswords boys!'

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 09:04:16


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
Utilizing Careful Highlighting




U.k

Vatsetis wrote:
Given that 99% of a SM Chapter Firepower is in their space Fleet (crewed mainly by chapter serfs and servitors) and that 99% of the IOM firepower is not in the hands of the Adeptus Astartes... and given that the IOM has no moral restictions on ussing indiscriminate firepower even against its own population... wouldnt the typical Astartes mission look pretty much like this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yufzbEWa9TQ

No surprise a high number of Space Marines turn traitors since the IOM way of fighting war denies the porpouse of their very existence... it must be hugely frustrating to sacrifice your own humanity and decades of constant training to achieve a level of perfection that has no practical use.

Why does the 40K setting do so much to undermine the military significance of the poster boy faction?


How many turn traitor? A high number is just wrong. Second, they are fully indoctrinated using drugs and hypnosis. Questioning with way things isn’t in there dna, literally. And you are ignoring all the evidence saying that is not how they wage war at all.

What is the point of all these posts, and all your comments in general? What are you adding to the community here? I hope it’s more than just trolling but don’t see anything else so far.
   
Made in fr
Secret Inquisitorial Eldar Xenexecutor





France

Yeah, you have to read some lore. Marines are very resistant to taint. That's why it's such a big deal when they turn traitor, in a very few events (Badab War, that one false crusade in the Eye of Terror, The Heresy...). Nowadays, because "your dudes, your paint scheme" GW gives lots of examples of new traitors, but keep in mind the Imperium of man has been around for longer than the current human history.
And no, they fulfill their existence because 40k is a setting about war on the ground. They are always (sometimes stupid) reasons to 1) not exterminatus a world
2) take it with boots on the ground.

   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

My interpretation is that Marines have a VERY limited emotional range. They're kind of developmentally frozen in a prepubescent boy's idea of a big strong manly man that can kill anyone. Their interests and drives are pretty inhuman and they lack empathy. So I'd say applying real world psychological syndromes to them doesn't really work. They're already insane by normal human standards and would not be able to relate to us at all.

As for turning to chaos, I reckon it makes sense that Marines would go rogue reasonably regularly. Whether that's just deciding they want to do whatever they like without orders from the Imperium or their chapter leaders, or full blown chaos worship I dunno. I'd see Marines as pretty vulnerable to some aspects of chaos, and pretty immune to other aspects. I'm surprised the majority of chaos space marines don't fall into Khorne worship for example if they are devout.

   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
BTW Vartis, I gotta ask, you're sure posting an aweful lot of passiver agressive "durr marines suxorz! and they're illogical" posts. You got a purpose for this or are you just trolling?


Its Vatsetis.

Not trolling at all.

Its just the more I think about it the more I view the Astartes as a complete liability to the IOM... The IOM has excelent elite specialized forces in the form of Custodes, Assasins, GK and deatchwatch* amongst others. They have huge armies of sorotitas, ad mech and imperial guards. A regular SM Chapter apart from having good ships gives nothing to the IOM military... Rather than a high tendency to rebel and join CSM.

Many stories and marketing material pretend that Adeptus Astartes are the protagonist of the setting... But if you think about it with some perspective they only exist as some sort of traditional tribute to the "golden age" of the Great Crusade.

Perhaps thats the reason why the IOM maintains the Adeptus Astartes reduced to such a tiny number... They are only a ritualistic propaganda tool.

I ask about this issues and most counter arguments I get is doubling down on the fanboy bolter porn power fantasy.

*I know both GK and DW are Astartes, but this are the only ones that IMHO make sense as chamber militants of the Inquisition... Rendering regular SM chapters pretty useless apart from giving manpowers to the DW.
   
Made in de
Terrifying Doombull






Nuremberg

Space Marine Chapters exist to allow for players to pick their own fun colour schemes and background for their armies. It makes less sense in the more codified and nailed down current era where a lot of stuff is focused on GW's created legions and chapters but the chapter structure wasn't ever really supposed to be something that stood up to scrutiny because it's just the easiest way to have player created armies that fit into the Imperium. And I'd say in that regard it's wildly successful and profitable for GW. The various legions which are now pretty valuable sources of revenue in specialist model lines and novels started as fairly one note 'Here's an example of a scheme for your dudes' stuff that gradually accumulated more detail until we are in the situation we are in today.

   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




 godardc wrote:
Yeah, you have to read some lore. Marines are very resistant to taint. That's why it's such a big deal when they turn traitor, in a very few events (Badab War, that one false crusade in the Eye of Terror, The Heresy...). Nowadays, because "your dudes, your paint scheme" GW gives lots of examples of new traitors, but keep in mind the Imperium of man has been around for longer than the current human history.
And no, they fulfill their existence because 40k is a setting about war on the ground. They are always (sometimes stupid) reasons to 1) not exterminatus a world
2) take it with boots on the ground.


In lore Adeptus Astartes are more prone to becoming traitor than any other elite IOM organisation. Just take SOB, SOS or Custodes as an example.

Perhaps is because of their semi independent nature... Just like Knight which also have a tendency to join Chaos.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Da Boss wrote:
Space Marine Chapters exist to allow for players to pick their own fun colour schemes and background for their armies. It makes less sense in the more codified and nailed down current era where a lot of stuff is focused on GW's created legions and chapters but the chapter structure wasn't ever really supposed to be something that stood up to scrutiny because it's just the easiest way to have player created armies that fit into the Imperium. And I'd say in that regard it's wildly successful and profitable for GW. The various legions which are now pretty valuable sources of revenue in specialist model lines and novels started as fairly one note 'Here's an example of a scheme for your dudes' stuff that gradually accumulated more detail until we are in the situation we are in today.


Certainly I wasnt commenting on the huge marketing succes of the Space Marines.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean, all of the fancy stories people seem to enjoy so much of Astartes slaughtering hopeless garrison troops in wide bunker complex seem to be actually possible in setting... but only as a way of "blood sport" activity specifically created to maintain the Astartes happy and not realising how utterly tertiary they are to the overall military effort of the IOM... which will probably lead them to open rebelion.

It seems that the Heretic Astartes offer a clear "Astartes supremacist" political regime, where as the IOM in 40K has reduce the Astartes into some sort of relic/pet/theme park atrraction.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/11 15:30:01


 
   
Made in us
Armored Iron Breaker





These threads reveal only a cursory reading of the lore, at best. You're obsessed, as so many other people are, with poking holes in the "logical consistency" of fictional stories - which are just that. Stories. They don't have to conform to your expectations.

Fernys Hjolda!
 
   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Easy, Marines are really good at taking military targets without destroying them. Instead of blowing up an orbital defense platform, why not take it instead and use it against the enemy?

Think of Marines as a multitool. They're very capable at doing a number of things all the way from single-squad covert intel gathering, all the way up to fleet engagement and Exterminatus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 20:48:47


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Ah yes, I forgot to remember that marines are ment to be the best at everything... Thats how some stories describe them... And making any criticism to the marine lore is some sort of obssesion... Perhaps Im falling into the sweet arms of the Dark Prince.
   
Made in us
One Canoptek Scarab in a Swarm





So, I've seen a lot of people defending marines here as extremely tired of the overabundance of marines in the model line and lore, and I'm one of them. It's not like these are games workshop white knights.

Setek: "My people shackled the stars, and broke mortality when the species you sprang from had barely left the slime pools it spawned in. Our wars burned reality, and the dominion of our kings is without limit. The ground you tread on is not yours; it is ours. "

Ahriman: "The Necrontyr; the sleeping ones"

Setek: "That name is not ours. Why give a name to totality?" 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Vatsetis wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot to remember that marines are ment to be the best at everything... Thats how some stories describe them... And making any criticism to the marine lore is some sort of obssesion... Perhaps Im falling into the sweet arms of the Dark Prince.


or maybe you're just a troll.

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in es
Regular Dakkanaut




Because I dont like Adeptus Astartes to be portrayed as the "best at everything, no weakness faction"?

As I said multiple times I just want to make sense out of the lore. It just seems to me that despite all the marketing focus on the SM they seem like a liability to the IOM... IE the oportunity cost of Astartes is too high for the Imperium, whatever they do can be achieve better or cheaper by other IOM military institutions.

If they are indeed a multitool they will need the numbers to act independently... But a 1000 strong chapter can achieve almost nothing on its own.

BTW, if Im indeed a troll you should simply ignore me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 22:37:20


 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





On another note I'm gonna note that if you think this is an issue for MARINES....
you sir need to take a look elsewhere.

Marines are psycho-indoctrinated, are part of a small close knit brotherhood where outright fatalities are proably quite rare, are long lived and will likely see their homeworld again (assuming their chapter maintains a homeworld)

Meanwhile GUARDSMEN are swept up into the guard, a orginization where heavy heavy casualties are the norm. ohh and with very very VERY few exceptions... will never see their homeworld again

So please tell me how the space marines are the ones who'll suffer morale issues

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 22:44:37


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Sweden

I'm sure it occasionally happens. But the beleaguered Imperium of Man do not have the luxury of abundant available options which the modern American military sports. The Imperium faces horrendous war on every side, and must strike out with what can be mustered. Think WW2 Soviets, Germans, Japanese and Chinese for an easy analogue. Or any WW1 country bar the USA. The Imperials are stretched too thin. Space Marines would generally get to do their job. They will also have ample opportunities to do so.

Ave Imperator.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/08/11 22:52:04


   
Made in us
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar






Vatsetis wrote:
Ah yes, I forgot to remember that marines are ment to be the best at everything...
They aren't. But they're really good at a couple pretty valuable things, like storming ships/installations, and very fast strikes. Other branches like the Guard and the Navy are better at large protracted engagements and fleet operations, respectively.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrianDavion wrote:


or maybe you're just a troll.
Probably

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/11 23:01:39


And They Shall Not Fit Through Doors!!!

Tyranid Army Progress -- With Classic Warriors!:
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/743240.page#9671598 
   
Made in us
Stone Bonkers Fabricator General






A garden grove on Citadel Station

Vatsetis wrote:
Because I dont like Adeptus Astartes to be portrayed as the "best at everything, no weakness faction"?

As I said multiple times I just want to make sense out of the lore. It just seems to me that despite all the marketing focus on the SM they seem like a liability to the IOM... IE the oportunity cost of Astartes is too high for the Imperium, whatever they do can be achieve better or cheaper by other IOM military institutions.
Without trying to call you a "noob" or anything, are you new to 40k, it's a fantasy sci-fi setting where the logic is made up to suit the stories and results that make it interesting.

So, while you note there are Adeptus Custodes (from m31 to m40 literally didn't leave terra), Deathwatch (space marines), elite humans like sororitas and militarum tempestus. Space marines fill a space of not adeptus custodes, but far stronger than normal humans. That's why the Emperor made them, because there were some jobs that even 100x the Marines' numbers in normal humans couldn't do. Missions where you can't just bomb from orbit or deploy 100,000 guardsmen. You kind of just have to accept that Space Marines make sense / are necessary. Now, why are they necessary? Any reason you can think of.

It's true that the vast majority of the Imperium's strength is normal guys, the imperial guard, the navy.

But, the Emperor decided there were some wars where you really needed super-soldiers for certain tasks. And so, the Space Marines have been around ever since. The only 1000 guys per chapter may seem paltry, and it is. Originally the legions were up to 200,000 or more guys. They were split up to prevent another Horus Heresy. If as you say a chapter becomes disgruntled and feels unappreciated or like the Imperium has betrayed them, they might go renegade, and that has happened. Just only 1000 guys at a time, maximum. And often, this results in sending a half dozen other chapters to wipe them from existence, so it's not like they are actually more of a liability than a tool.

Also in regards to "best at everything, no weaknesses faction", that is exactly what they were designed to be. The weakness is not in the actual marines, but in how few of them there are, which you note yourself. They are also used as symbols of the Emperor's power, they are supposed to seem flawless and good at everything. And they are good at everything, not literally the best, but actually some factions are just Even More Good at that thing. Compared to the other things the Imperium has to offer, they are good at everything.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/08/11 23:28:14


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When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
 
   
Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.


Half of the Adeptus Astartes rebelled because they felt daddy didn't like them enough.


Not...really. That describes a couple of the primarchs (including Horus and Lorgar), but their marines turned for a variety of reasons, including loving their immediate father-figure too much.

But then...
Magnus rebelled for being attacked for trying to help (granted, helping in ways that was destructive in ways he didn't understand/believe).
Angron rebelled for being betrayed by the Emperor when the first met (and being driven mad by the tech in his head)
Alpharius rebelled because... 5th dimensional chess.
Batmanuel rebelled because future visions told him he did.
Perturabo rebelled because he was petty about being 'that other siege expert' in a limited circle 18(19). His issue was as much with his brothers as daddy.
Fulgrim... got soul trapped and never had a choice.

Mortarian's actual motives still escape me, beyond 'trapped in the warp on a plague ship, what do?'

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in us
Water-Caste Negotiator




Les Etats Unis

Voss wrote:
epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
for a start because Space Marines are better disiplined then those man babies.


Half of the Adeptus Astartes rebelled because they felt daddy didn't like them enough.


Not...really. That describes a couple of the primarchs (including Horus and Lorgar), but their marines turned for a variety of reasons, including loving their immediate father-figure too much.

But then...
Magnus rebelled for being attacked for trying to help (granted, helping in ways that was destructive in ways he didn't understand/believe).
Angron rebelled for being betrayed by the Emperor when the first met (and being driven mad by the tech in his head)
Alpharius rebelled because... 5th dimensional chess.
Batmanuel rebelled because future visions told him he did.
Perturabo rebelled because he was petty about being 'that other siege expert' in a limited circle 18(19). His issue was as much with his brothers as daddy.
Fulgrim... got soul trapped and never had a choice.

Mortarian's actual motives still escape me, beyond 'trapped in the warp on a plague ship, what do?'


Mortarion had legitimate daddy issues: He was upset that Big E didn't let him climb to the top of a mountain and die despite it being very important to him. Additionally, don't Magnus and Angrons' situations also count by your metrics?

Dudeface wrote:
 Eldarain wrote:
Is there another game where players consistently blame each other for the failings of the creator?

If you want to get existential, life for some.
 
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/12 03:33:29


Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing


That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.
   
Made in ca
Legendary Master of the Chapter





epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing


That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.


eh the loyalist ones where the more functional half. there's a scene in... I wanna say slaves to darkness where Horus is thinking and it's basicly like "...... for god's sake, why did all the people who rallied to me have to be the insane ones! I'd have won this already if I had Gulliman and Dorn"

.. course it never occured to him that if all the ones who followed him where the crazy ones maybe what he's doing was.. ya know... crazy!

Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




BrianDavion wrote:
epronovost wrote:
BrianDavion wrote:
Morty just had issues that guy was just a giant ball of hate, rage, and self loathing


That describes basically all the "evil" Primarchs and maybe some of the more loyal ones. Dorn had some serious issues too as did Ferrus Manus and I'm not too sure Corax was all there.


eh the loyalist ones where the more functional half. there's a scene in... I wanna say slaves to darkness where Horus is thinking and it's basicly like "...... for god's sake, why did all the people who rallied to me have to be the insane ones! I'd have won this already if I had Gulliman and Dorn"

.. course it never occured to him that if all the ones who followed him where the crazy ones maybe what he's doing was.. ya know... crazy!


I don't remember the title, but I remember the short story. He's also complaining to Ferus Manus' skull at that point...so ya know... crazy!
   
 
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