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Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




I am asking specifically because I think some things in the new system are very interesting, but I don't quite get other ones. For example initially I really liked the idea of the new combat system where attacker and defender get to choose between blocking attacks or doing damage, but in practice it seems to be more about fishing for crits, trying to accumulate chip damage you can't even to anything against, or trying to one-shot stuff. It just feels like there is a layer of saves missing or at least something along those lines.

I just think its strange that it doesn't matter if a guardsman hits an ork or a space marine, the first hit always goes through and does damage.

   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







I'm so irritated with how incredibly restrictive the list-building is I haven't bothered to read anything else about new KT. That used to be the home for conversions/kitbashes, now we're just stuck with the exact same "no instructions, no rules" crap that GW's slowly been pushing into the main game.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
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Made in au
Longtime Dakkanaut




It is a huge!! Improvement I think.
The ballance is still a bit off, and I think the systems work well enough.
The way damage works can be a pain, fishing for crits I think depends a lot on which factions.
Often it’s all you can do against custodes, they are a bit much and I think feel a bit oppressive on the small battlefield where monovering is difficult.
A good turn can be devastating.
If they added on any more defences, then for half the factions they could hear what you are playing and there only choice would be not bother to play game. And watch units not do anything.

The first hit is more a advantage hit, and the choices made I think does at least make CC feel more interesting as well.
I would be weary of changing that too much, maybe only banshee masks and a few bits of gear here and there.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





“Hope Is The First Step On The Road To Disappointment”

I followed this one fairly closely as a new not 40k based ruleset seemed like a big step for daddy dubs

Then the compendium kind of let us have a peek behind the curtain, ho hum never mind then

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




NE Ohio, USA

I'll have to get back to you on this.
Not having read the system (or played the previousversion), I don't have an opinion on it.
Yet.
Come sat/sun though once my stuff arrives....
   
Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut





The compendium situation is a nice reminder of how GW operates, but we will be playing a lot of KT as the combat system feels fluid and interesting. We needed a lot more thorough datasheets from the start however, including most or all of the models expected to be included in the game. This drip feed nonsense is, as usual, trash.


Lastly,

Drawing line of the sight from the model's head. Plain bad. I need someone to explain to me what GWs issue is with LoS? It is always a mess with them. I understand they want things to feel "cinematic" (which is a ridiculous misunderstanding on their part of what that means: a cinema is a 'moving picture', a board game is turn based strategy...) and so want to include the "model's perspective" in player decision making.

But battletech has sorted out LoS for 30 years, infinity has LoS that works....This is always such a classic GW problem where they convolute a mechanic that tons of other designers have produced adequate rules for, decades ago.
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Honestly, Ive played a few games of it and I think it's one of the first times GW has actually successfully created a quick but not puddle-shallow skirmish system.

Necromunda is great and I love it, but the breadth and complexity is massive and daunting for new players. Kill Team you can teach in an hour, play with a few pieces of junk as terrain, but its still got enough depth to it that after the first couple games with two armies you don't go 'welp, I think we've basically plumbed the depths of how these two factions are going to interact.'

Which is IMO the main problem with warcry, old kill team, and every other edition of kill team that i've ever played - you basically have none of the spectacle present in 40k to distract you from the fact that you're not actually making that many meaningful decisions, your dudes kind of just do what your dudes do on autopilot and it doesnt have that simulationist chaos that creates zany wargaming moments that's present in Necromunda, Inq28 or Mordheim to break it up.

People who want "Necromunda, but 40k flavored" are going to hate it, because it just isn't that. It's not a system that gives you a billion little rules that you can apply to your lovingly crafted super-customized little 'mini RPG PCs' who you then throw into a zany complex simulationist system that lets you say "i want to do this" and gives you a complicated system of rules to resolve that action.

But as an entry product to the 40k universe that's fast to teach a newbie but fun to play even if you're a veteran? Brilliant. Huge improvement on the previous version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually had an opportunity about a month ago to run a demo of the old edition of Kill Team for 10 brand-new fresh faced folks most of whom had never heard of 40k before. i used my own miniature collection and purposefully crafted 100-pt lists of 8 different factions, trying to capture the overall 'feel' of that faction as best I could. So the Deathwatch had 5 vets all with fancy wargear, the Eldar had exarchs and warriors from 3 different aspects, the Guard had a commissar and a single Ogryn backed up by a team of mostly basic duders, CSM had elite marines backed up by several mook cultists, etc.

Overall it was pretty good and people had a good time, but the biggest issue was it just plain took too long to resolve the choices you made, and you just didnt have enough choices to meaningfully make.

Most activations were pretty clear and obvious: this guy who is in range is gonna want to shoot, so I'll Ready him so I get to shoot first, and then I'll shoot him.

So now I roll to hit. And i roll to wound. And my opponent rolls to save. and then I roll to injure. And each time, I need to reference a different stat, and my opponent needs to know their stat, and on and on and on.

4 roll events for a single action is just MASSIVELY excessive for the uninitiated.

One roll, I only need to know my stats and my rules and I don't need to know anything about yours, we do a little mini-game where we re-roll and we compare the dice and maybe make a choice or two, and then it's resolved, done. Fantastic. Huge improvement.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/25 19:12:38


"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
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I, uh, I like how cover works?

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 Turnip Jedi wrote:
“Hope Is The First Step On The Road To Disappointment”

I followed this one fairly closely as a new not 40k based ruleset seemed like a big step for daddy dubs

Then the compendium kind of let us have a peek behind the curtain, ho hum never mind then


Ive heard this complaint a lot - is the lack of options the big turn off here with the compendium? Most of the teams seem to be at least reasonably balanced based on what I've played so far, havent seen too many super one-sided blowouts.

I've played with Tzeentch Daemons, Orks, Harlequins, GSC, Deathwatch, and Drukhari.

"I can't believe all these tryhard WAACs out there just care about winning all the time when it's supposed to be a game for fun!!!!!!! Also here's my 27 page essay on why marines are OP and Orkz should get a bunch of OP rules so I can win more games

-the_scotsman"

-ERJAK 
   
Made in at
Longtime Dakkanaut




 the_scotsman wrote:
Honestly, Ive played a few games of it and I think it's one of the first times GW has actually successfully created a quick but not puddle-shallow skirmish system.

Necromunda is great and I love it, but the breadth and complexity is massive and daunting for new players. Kill Team you can teach in an hour, play with a few pieces of junk as terrain, but its still got enough depth to it that after the first couple games with two armies you don't go 'welp, I think we've basically plumbed the depths of how these two factions are going to interact.'

Which is IMO the main problem with warcry, old kill team, and every other edition of kill team that i've ever played - you basically have none of the spectacle present in 40k to distract you from the fact that you're not actually making that many meaningful decisions, your dudes kind of just do what your dudes do on autopilot and it doesnt have that simulationist chaos that creates zany wargaming moments that's present in Necromunda, Inq28 or Mordheim to break it up.

People who want "Necromunda, but 40k flavored" are going to hate it, because it just isn't that. It's not a system that gives you a billion little rules that you can apply to your lovingly crafted super-customized little 'mini RPG PCs' who you then throw into a zany complex simulationist system that lets you say "i want to do this" and gives you a complicated system of rules to resolve that action.

But as an entry product to the 40k universe that's fast to teach a newbie but fun to play even if you're a veteran? Brilliant. Huge improvement on the previous version.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I actually had an opportunity about a month ago to run a demo of the old edition of Kill Team for 10 brand-new fresh faced folks most of whom had never heard of 40k before. i used my own miniature collection and purposefully crafted 100-pt lists of 8 different factions, trying to capture the overall 'feel' of that faction as best I could. So the Deathwatch had 5 vets all with fancy wargear, the Eldar had exarchs and warriors from 3 different aspects, the Guard had a commissar and a single Ogryn backed up by a team of mostly basic duders, CSM had elite marines backed up by several mook cultists, etc.

Overall it was pretty good and people had a good time, but the biggest issue was it just plain took too long to resolve the choices you made, and you just didnt have enough choices to meaningfully make.

Most activations were pretty clear and obvious: this guy who is in range is gonna want to shoot, so I'll Ready him so I get to shoot first, and then I'll shoot him.

So now I roll to hit. And i roll to wound. And my opponent rolls to save. and then I roll to injure. And each time, I need to reference a different stat, and my opponent needs to know their stat, and on and on and on.

4 roll events for a single action is just MASSIVELY excessive for the uninitiated.

One roll, I only need to know my stats and my rules and I don't need to know anything about yours, we do a little mini-game where we re-roll and we compare the dice and maybe make a choice or two, and then it's resolved, done. Fantastic. Huge improvement.


That's a great summary. The way you describe it, to me the old kill team sounds more interesting. With the new system it seems like you just throw varying weapon types at units that mostly differentiate from each other by varying health pools.
But yeah, like you say it seems properly streamlined and easy to learn. Maybe that is what was needed for kill team...idk.
   
Made in gb
Executing Exarch





 the_scotsman wrote:
 Turnip Jedi wrote:
“Hope Is The First Step On The Road To Disappointment”

I followed this one fairly closely as a new not 40k based ruleset seemed like a big step for daddy dubs

Then the compendium kind of let us have a peek behind the curtain, ho hum never mind then


Ive heard this complaint a lot - is the lack of options the big turn off here with the compendium? Most of the teams seem to be at least reasonably balanced based on what I've played so far, havent seen too many super one-sided blowouts.

I've played with Tzeentch Daemons, Orks, Harlequins, GSC, Deathwatch, and Drukhari.


Its more that the book is essentially an Index, for considerably more, yes it has more in but I don't want to pay for lots and lots of pages I'll never use, and the lack of options is fine as a start but kind of telegraphs the cool toys are going to be gated behind drip fed boxes, which will led to the rollercoaster of powerlevels like 40k

"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED." 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






I love about 90% of it.

The core rules look great and I really like how everything fits together. On the surface, some rules look strange (e.g. no armour saves in melee), but taken as a whole things make sense (e.g. the parry mechanic could easily represent the operative utilising their armour to deflect a blow).

The one thing I'm not keen on is list building for a couple of the factions, mainly Space Marines. I would've preferred that Primaris Marines get 2 smaller fire teams of 2 men each, and when you choose a leader it adds a model rather than upgrading one, for example. I just like the idea of even a Marine KT being a hand-picked force being selected for a special mission, rather than what essentially works out to be a combat squad.

Being a CSM player, though, I can't complain about our KT rules too much. I lament the loss of Berzerkers for my WE, but CSM will do for now.

The new campaign system more than makes up for the list building rules, though. I am so keen for this.
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





I love the little base building rules. I adore little systems like that.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm so irritated with how incredibly restrictive the list-building is I haven't bothered to read anything else about new KT. That used to be the home for conversions/kitbashes, now we're just stuck with the exact same "no instructions, no rules" crap that GW's slowly been pushing into the main game.


Your loss. I took a box of 10 chaos marines and dug into a my ol' bits box and have come up with 10 very distinct marines with flair from tons of different kits, including vampire counts, space marines, possessed, raptors, and even some resin night lords upgrade packs. Your conversions are only limited to your imagination.

The major difference from last edition to this one is that I don't have to worry about running 3 different Aspiring Champions to make my list function. I can focus on converting one or two for my roster and then can devote bodies to other weapons, like chainswords and bolters. "Oh no, the boring chainsword/pistol and bolter options!" I hear some cry. Sure, if you don't have any imagination. The regular chainsword/pistol and bolter guys can have JUST AS MUCH character as the champion with power weapon and plasma pistol. Oh, disappointed that the power axe isn't different from the power sword or the power maul? THAT'S A GOOD THING. It means you can give your power-weapon-toting guy ANY weapon you want, and as long as it's recognizable as a power weapon, it's good! It could be a power-trident or a power-nunchuck.

Bust open the bits box and open your brain. The system is good.
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







drbored wrote:
The major difference from last edition to this one is that I don't have to worry about running 3 different Aspiring Champions to make my list function.


The fallacy here is assuming that cutting your strong options somehow made your weak options better.

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Fixture of Dakka




I don't think it will be a good expiriance for anyone playing an army which won't get updated very fast. There is a big difference in option in rules , that got the new kits eg.orks and the krieg veterans. And everyone else. One have different options, rules on dudes etc and the other have something take 5 intercessor the sgt can take this 4 upgrades, no special rules, no nothing. Which probably means that GW is going to spread those over multiple books. Same way they did with necromunda.

If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain. 
   
Made in se
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






I think the new system is great, as far as core rules are concerned anyways. Just wish they will eventually back down from fire teams and restore points values to the game, because I want to build custom teams which aren't tied to single faction and the current system makes this impossible.

But am I hyped to be playing some Octarius missions ASAP? You bet!
   
Made in pt
Fireknife Shas'el




Lisbon, Portugal

Having played it yet, but the fact the base rules are way different than the previous one is a big plus for me (especially for alternate activation).

I'm yet divided about the way melee works, but I'll get into some games before judging that.

KT, 40k, AI & BFG: / SW Legion & X-Wing: CIS / MCP

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 Shadenuat wrote:
Voted Astra Militarum for a chance for them to get nerfed instead of my own army.
 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Putting aside crap list building and scandalous price for a moment...its alright. Infinite range for most ranged weapons is a definite improvement, along with cover and movement.

For £30, though, I'd expect to see a lot more game for the money such as alien beasts and a solo/coop feature for open play. A few factions to get started should be in there. In its current form it should have been a bundle with the essentials kit for £35.

The "launch box" is welcome enough, but not to the point where they bang on about it solid for three weeks. Its mainly aimed at Ork players( shout out to you, you magnificent people ) with some very niche Imperial Guard chaps who...sorry, but they ain't much to get excited about apart from...a friggin spade? Every other player has had nothing to be excited about apart from "expect new models once in a while" and a disgustingly high price tag for the rules and compendium.

Sadly, it has not been worth the wait and for now a hard pass.

Casual gaming, mostly solo-coop these days.

 
   
Made in se
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife






IMHO Octarius is the only reasonably priced way to get into KT2, assuming that everything in the box is something you happen to fancy.

Separate books, tokens etc were priced way too high.

As for melee, I think the implementation they ended up with worls better IRL than what one might think from just reading the rules. I've seen several batreps now and the overall lethality of shooting vs CC seems quite balanced.

BTW, someone on Reddit just homebrewed datasheets for The Gellerpox & Starstriders!
https://www.reddit.com/r/killteam/comments/pb9hld/homebrew_data_cards_for_starstriders_and_gellerpox/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/26 09:58:29


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

If there was a Killteam rulebook that contained all the rules and all the factions, I'd probably have bought it.
But as it is, that's not happening. Instead I've pulled the 4 datasheets I'm going to need to play a game from Youtube reviews and no GW doesn't get anything from me.

The rules themselves look quite good. The compendium is a bland disappointments. Although I look forward to the flavour of future 'Octarius style' teams, I'm disappointed that that flavour will only be available on a limited basis if GW happens to release a team you're interested in.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

The terrain's cool.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk






 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The terrain's cool.


I totally love that the six ork ruins "slot" into each other to form one massive structure. We need more terrain like this.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

Even the compendium marines have a bunch of options. Look at the tacticals, what model are you missing?

Yes if they had their comms specialist and the like it would have been a lot better, yes that means their balance is off, yes balance will be awful in general because GW suck at that.

Indeed I would have liked less detail - take pistols. I get a choice of say 3 on my leader, but lets be honest the plasma is massively better than the rest. If it had just said 'pistol - plasma/las/bolt and given one stat line it would mean more modelling fun and not feeling you were taking nerfs.

Most of the moaning seems to be not being able to max out on special stuff and skip the low powered models.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




The game looks pretty decent from what I've seen of the rules in action. The pricing structure is a deal-breaker for me, both in terms of the non-Octarius offering for getting all the rules and the plan to release factions through their own books rather than all at once like the last KT did. That's just not a system I'm interested in buying into right now, especially with how bland the Compendium Fire Teams are.

The great thing about the previous KT was you could buy the core rulebook and get everything you needed to play, including full lists for each of the factions in the game. I think they've massively screwed up that accessibility with the new KT.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/26 10:32:00


 
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

I understand different stats for different pistols. If you distinguish between a plasmagun and a lasgun (which you need to do) you also kinda need to distinguish between the plasmapistol and the laspistol.

The question is how you balance those two against each other when you don't get any points to do so.
Perhaps taking the laspistol should give you an extra equipment point to spend or something.
But then this is literally just points with extra steps... why can't we have points.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/08/26 10:33:45


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 kirotheavenger wrote:
I understand different stats for different pistols. If you distinguish between a plasmagun and a lasgun (which you need to do) you also kinda need to distinguish between the plasmapistol and the laspistol.

The question is how you balance those two against each other when you don't get any points to do so.
Perhaps taking the laspistol should give you an extra equipment point to spend or something.
But then this is literally just points with extra steps... why can't we have points.


Once you have this style of team creation it is actually a boost to balance to have single stat lines (and it can reflect how a bolt pistol in the hands of a marine is used better than a guard sergeant). 'Pistol - Imperial guard sergeants can carry a variety including x,y,z - Stat line'. 'Rifle - Imperial Guard rely on the lasgun though some regiments use autoguns or local alternatives - Stat line' and so on.
   
Made in gb
Ship's Officer





Bristol (UK)

But then do you have "special weapon" as a profile or is a plasmagun identical to a lasgun?
If so, you've gone way too far on the simplification.

If not, why isn't a plasmapistol also sufficiently different to a laspistol?
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut



London

 kirotheavenger wrote:
But then do you have "special weapon" as a profile or is a plasmagun identical to a lasgun?
If so, you've gone way too far on the simplification.

If not, why isn't a plasmapistol also sufficiently different to a laspistol?


Main weapons with distinct differences you would still have there as that is part of your decision making. Do I want my melta weapon to take care of bulkheads, or plasma for unstable backup over distance?

But a rifleman is much of a muchness in such a system because the effect they bring isn't firepower but area control, threat, etc. (and maybe special abilities like a radio).

Making a decision about a sidearm is an RPG level thing and especially with GWs rules tends to be a bloody obvious choice. So you have to balance for the best pistol, the others are there why? Lots of groups insist on WYSIWYG rather than just letting everyone say they have the best option, so bake that into the rules for minor stuff like a sidearm.
   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!






I really do like the new KT core game.

I also understand the complaints, but most stem from the army building which will get fixed once each army gets its specialist teams.

I play custodes and yes they are a bit strong atm, but the only way they could change them atm is to make their "Brotherhood of Demi-gods" strat be only shoot or fight twice instead of both.

If you mess with anything else they would quickly fall behind.

Being able to shoot and fight twice with each custode is a bit too good though.

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