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OK guys i have to share. During the last Kickstarter campaign i was asked repeatedly about going to plastic from metal. After a great deal of research i discovered a Siocast caster in the USA. Siocast is a new type of casting that was developed in Spain. It uses a new type of plastic that was developed just for this process. I got the first samples today and i wanted share the results of the casting process and find out what you guys thought of the process.

This is the same model. the grey one cast in Siocast and the painted one is cast in metal. Both models are using the same metal master. The Scale is 28mm. That are your thougths on this process? If i should consider sticking with this process, what should i consider for future castings? (The painted model is painted with GW contrast paints)

What kind of glue does it take? Standard model cement like Testors or Tamiya, or super glue? Super glue isn't so super, so a plastic that takes standard model cement is the better choice for multi-part plastics.

The detail seems fine to me. Although on the painted figure, the skin is rough. Is that an artifact of the printing or casting process, because that is a deal-breaker for me. I've purchased two of your Aztec goddesses, and that roughness was not present on the metal casts.

I like how the SioCast mini looks. I’m excited for the plastic.

If they were cast from the same master, why is the siocast one significantly smaller? Does the material shrink up severely?

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
What kind of glue does it take? Standard model cement like Testors or Tamiya, or super glue? Super glue isn't so super, so a plastic that takes standard model cement is the better choice for multi-part plastics.

The detail seems fine to me. Although on the painted figure, the skin is rough. Is that an artifact of the printing or casting process, because that is a deal-breaker for me. I've purchased two of your Aztec goddesses, and that roughness was not present on the metal casts.

I believe that it is my painting is the problem on that model. The spray primer went on in a weird way do to the heat and humidity, and the contrast painting picked up on it as well.


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 Snrub wrote:
If they were cast from the same master, why is the siocast one significantly smaller? Does the material shrink up severely?

I have no idea. I contacted the caster to find out.

If it's the primer + Contrast, then my original remark stands: the detail is fine.

I thought metal prices are going up. With Siocast, you can keep the prices down per figure? They both look good, although I'm not a display-level painter.

It looks pretty good.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
What kind of glue does it take? Standard model cement like Testors or Tamiya, or super glue? Super glue isn't so super, so a plastic that takes standard model cement is the better choice for multi-part plastics.

Siocast is a nylon plastic more or less. Plastic cement won't work.

Mod edit. USE SPOILER TAGS NEXT TIME. >:|



There is a noticeably lack of definition in the nasal piercing and the chest musculature between the siocast and the metal versions. That central winged ornamentation also looks like it took a detail hit.

Siocast seem's to be the way forward as metal prices are getting very high.
The material is also very light so it means that postage costs can be kept down.
For gluing Siocast i have used Super glue on my Judge Dredd and Slaine miniatures.

I received a Siocast miniature from Corvus Belli. The newish Polaris Bearapode. It is the most ridiculously brittle crap I have ever had a model made from. In the past 35 ish years of this hobby I have built literally tens of thousands of models.

That crap snapped at the ankle while I was gluing it to its base. Fine whatever, glue the ankles back together. Snap. Put a quarter inch long pin in the ankle, snap at the knee.

Maybe the one I got was a bad batch or something. But I won't be purchasing anything else made from it anytime soon.

The detail looks to have come across mostly ok, but the degree of shrinkage looks a bit worrying if you were looking to convert your existing range to it

(and the small amount of detail loss i can see is probably down to the shinkage too)

If you do decide to go down the siocast route for new sculpts i'd suggest giving your (traditional) sculptors a pair of of minis like this so they can see how much shrinkage there will be and bulk up their work appropriately so you dont end up with ankles, spear shafts etc being too thin

I like the material, even as a retro metal-loving guy. The details look good, but I would expect a lower price for a siocast over a metal mini.

The one thing about Siocast that has me scared are the videos showing how to cleans up like a pvc miniature - and fine details is just toast if there's a mold line on it. Or you have to leave the mold line. That's what I'm curious about.

I've had samples of soft and hard siocast in hand, plus samples from our own machines and its not for me, I won't lie.

It behaves almost exactly like PVC in terms of clean up and as noted above is weirdly brittle (I had snapped ankles during clean up several times).

I feel like its another PVC like material that is trying to answer the metal question and will probably go the same way in the future (I certainly hope so), but different folks want different things and I readily admit to having expectations from my minis that are a bit above some (certainly my boss tells me so )

If it’s Siocast in the US, I wonder if it’s John Popson/ Effin Cool that would be doing it. He did the Siocast casting for Dark Maenad. (Who should be launching another Kickstarter this month). I really liked the material and quality of what I received in Siocast from the first Kickstarter. Though the price per model they charged was the same for metal and Siocast,

Hi Paymaster,

Having recently received some of your metal 28mm miniatures from your last kickstarter, I have some concerns about converting them to plastic. The question for me is: can the Siocast medium / process do justice in detail, scale, and durability to original sculpts that were originally designed and intended for metal casting, or does Siocast require models specifically designed with it's own particular strengths and weaknesses in mind?

Your miniatures are basically "truescale" 28mm, and already come off as a bit on the small side compared to miniatures from other companies that I've purchased. For me, any additional shrinkage due to switching from metal to plastic will make your human-sized figures too small to be useful.

Second, your miniatures frequently have very thin elements in metal. Spears in particular have extremely thin shafts that bend easily and require some minding, though the metal you use is resilient and can afford straightening within reasonable limits. If Siocast is as brittle as some posters here are suggesting, then that would also be a deal breaker for me for any model that has such thin sections. (I have no experience with Siocast yet myself, so that's definitely an "if.")

If excessive shrinkage and brittleness can't be avoided, you might consider compensating for that by altering the original sculpts first, perhaps by digitally scanning and slightly upscaling them and thickening brittle areas before casting them in plastic. Either that, or start a new dedicated line in plastics with models specifically sculpted and scaled appropriately for Siocast, to avoid both shrinkage and creating models that have thin areas that break easily.

Though I'm fine with metal, I'm not anti-plastic, and I know that every medium has strengths and weaknesses, so we're talking about the range of shrinkage / fragility that the market will tolerate (and ultimately, at what price point.) Keep in mind, though, that a lot of broken spears etc. would mean a lot of first-time customer disappointment, as well as the headache of dealing with returns and online criticism. Is Siocast as fragile as resin? If so, then a good question to ask yourself would be whether you would cast a given metal model in resin or not.

Finally, in terms of comparing for detail, could I ask to see a comparison between the Siocast mini and an unpainted metal version of the same model? Might make for a fairer comparison.

For those unfamiliar with Paymaster's models, the above remarks about their metals are not criticisms. The detail on their minis is extraordinary, and almost make me feel like I'm handling the work of a fine jeweler. If you're looking for troops to fill out a Warhammer Fantasy army with "heroic" scale, or even Reaper scale minis, then yes, Paymaster minis are likely to look small alongside them. For those who prize naturalistic proportions, Paymaster's current metal and resin sculpts are damn fine pieces of work with minute detail.

I’ve really liked the SioCast I received from Dark Manaed, Lost Sword, and Reaper. The minis I got were not so brittle they snapped, although they were slightly bendy, similar to Finecast. (Better details and quality than Finecast.)


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The test model displayed here is something I would buy for a reasonable price. $10? He’d look great next to my WGA Aztecs. $20? He stays on the rack next to the Primaris Lieutenants and Conquest blisters.

You really need better photos for anyone to make an honest comparison. It is pretty much impossible with what is presented here.

I would suggest taking photos of a Siocast and metal figure separately and then compositing them in a photo editor. I would also suggest you prime them both first but that is not 100%necessary. Definitely, 100% do not use painted figures for a comparison like this. Colors throw off perception sometimes (usually).

Edit:
I personally am interested in the material. The pictures you show I don't feel do justice to it or your figures.

Looking at your latest kickstarter, the prices seem pretty good for the bundles. I’d get some of the nobles packs and tribal starters in SioCast. Perhaps a version of the Hawaiian or Kiribati starters without the rule books for slightly lower prices would be attractive for historical and fantasy gamers.

UPDATE: OK i heard back from the Siocast caster with some answers.

The model softness - This was intended. They are working a formula that is drop resistant and did not shatter (which is a problem with some Siocast formulas)

The shinkage - this answer was allot simpler then i would have thought. they had used a cold mold, and this lead to the shrinkage. The caster offered to send new samples cast in warm molds.

The Price - The unit cost for the Siocast model is slighty cheaper then the metal. So in this case this metal model would sell for $15 and the Siocast would sell for $12.

What are your thoughts?

Need more info. Too brittle is a deal-breaker, as is a PVC level of difficulty in cleaning mold lines. {Forgot which KS I backed that produced PVC figures: don't want to deal with that hassle again.}

If you can get siocast that has the properties of HIPS plastic, then that would be the ideal. Whether that's feasible at siocast's current development level is another thing.

@Monkeysloth: Thanks for the answer.

 Ancestral Hamster wrote:
Need more info. Too brittle is a deal-breaker, as is a PVC level of difficulty in cleaning mold lines. {Forgot which KS I backed that produced PVC figures: don't want to deal with that hassle again.}

If you can get siocast that has the properties of HIPS plastic, then that would be the ideal. Whether that's feasible at siocast's current development level is another thing.

@Monkeysloth: Thanks for the answer.

Generally it's as hard to remove the mold lines from siocast as PVC and I say generally as there's so many different PVC formulas that some are easier then others and I've only tried Reapers (Bones USA) which is similar to Bones Black (a hard PVC mix).

I'm 100% willing to put up with mold lines that are hard to remove on PVC as, well, I like to use my minis in games and since PVC are neigh indestructible that's a trade off that's well worth it to me. To many friends and kids have broken painted minis or had paint chip off due to miss handling that PVC is my preferred material. Being brittle like some bad resins with all the negatives of prep of PVC would make a Siocast model very useless to me.

I think we're in the minority here, but I agree with Monkeysloth 100% on PVC. It's a pain in the butt to clean up, but I see that as a worthwhile investment of extra time that pays off later in model durability and the peace of mind that brings. Despite it's superior ability to capture crisp detail, on the other hand, I find myself leaning away from resin these days due to its fragility, except for small, compact, and difficult to break things like heads.

As I said, I have no experience with Siocast, so my comments here are mostly conjecture, but with minimal shrinkage and a blend that's not brittle, this looks like it could be a promising material for you, Paymaster. I wish you luck with it - you're a quality producer, and I'd like you to succeed. And if you end up making a big switch to Siocast and clear out your metal inventory someday, I hope I catch wind of that sale in time.

My only real exposure to Siocast was with Lost Sword's early experiments with it during their lizardmen campaign.

That stuff is super rubbery, to the point I've *TRIED* to break parts just to see if I could and most of the time it bounces back or a glued piece will just fall off instead. I was surprised.

I had a skink type guy that didn't want to go together, so out of curiosity I hurled him across the room, and no damage seemed to have been done.

If more siocast lizards need to be tortured in the name of science, just let me know!

How much do you expect shipping to cost?

I think its a bad sign that they sent you test casts made with the cold molds.
That is obviously an issue they are aware of, yet they chose to send it to you that way.
That isn't an "oops". It brings a level of disregard for quality from the producer.

It's concerning because it made a difference in the crispness of the details, like the nasal bone details and the ribs & chestplate.