Chapterhouse being sued?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Polonius**

NELS1031 wrote:
Lokirfellheart wrote: It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.

To me it looks more like a slowed cousin to the GW standard Zoanthrope. Not CHs finest work. Its the razorgor of their product line. Tastes vary of course.

They also plugged that mini in the tyranid wave 2 thread, then called into question why GW should even release a Doom of Malantai model, as they have it covered. All of the bit kits and such with neutral icons and weapon variants, thats aftermarket accessories. Creating a product to use in place of someone elses unreleased product, thats wanting to be a direct competitor. That to me is crossing the line into iffy legal territory. I gave an example of that in the other thread.

Well, selling that mini would probably be ok. It's not similar enough to anything GW to violate copyright.

Selling it as a Doom of Malantai is is a problem, as it isn't one.

So, sell it as an Alien Doom Brain or something.

**brettz123**

Kanluwen wrote:
Then CH's biggest supporters are full of crap Their statements of "I buy CH's pads because they're cheaper alternatives" just mean "I buy CH's pads because I like my models looking like crap".

I am not one of those people but yes if that is someones reason for buying CH shoulder pads they are certainly incorrect about the cost. The difference in price is certainly negligible and in some cases the GW shoulder pads are indeed cheaper (in the United States anyway).

The crap part would be in the eye of the beholder I suppose. Of course CH does offer items that GW does not ie Howling Griffon and Snake dude shoulder pads. So there is that.

**Asherian Command**

Wow 811 messages in how many days? This trumps any other thread.
I don't know who will the court case.

**brettz123**

Kanluwen wrote:
How does shoulderpads being available "encourage gamers to start another army"? That's absurdity, and you and I both know it.
.

I very much disagree with you. I am not sure if you are a space marine collector or not but I am and having the correct shoulder pads available is very important to me and several other people I know. It would 100% convince me to do a new army if I knew that the shoulder pads would be available.

**Brotherjulian**

I think the car parts analogy is right. CHS wasn't making knock-off landraiders, just parts. This is like Ford suing Cragar or American Racing because they make wheels for a Mustang
Or Chrysler, a quick look at Cragar's website just revealed them modelling wheels on a new Challenger.

**Gibbsey**

NELS1031 wrote:
Lokirfellheart wrote: It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.

To me it looks more like a slowed cousin to the GW standard Zoanthrope. Not CHs finest work. Its the razorgor of their product line. Tastes vary of course.

They also plugged that mini in the tyranid wave 2 thread, then called into question why GW should even release a Doom of Malantai model, as they have it covered. All of the bit kits and such with neutral icons and weapon variants, thats aftermarket accessories. Creating a product to use in place of someone elses unreleased product, thats wanting to be a direct competitor. That to me is crossing the line into iffy legal territory. I gave an example of that in the other thread.

This exactly

Also for everyone one of these bought GW is losing out because someone isnt buying a zoan to convert into the doom (which honestly does not look hard)

**Wolfstan**

Kanluwen wrote:
As you can see I say "I'm sure that if they did, it would of added another £10 to the cost of a squad". I'm not saying GW would of made £10, I'm saying that if GW had made custom shoulder pads, they would of been expensive in the usual GW way. GW could of made them as an extra bit, that may not of made them money on that bit, but the price covered the cost and, here's the marketing part, encouraged gamers to maybe start another army.

How does shoulderpads being available "encourage gamers to start another army"? That's absurdity, and you and I both know it.

As mentioned, if there had been custom pads around for the Iron Snakes at the time I would of probably bought into it. The fact that they do provide an ondemand casting service makes even more feasible.

So your argument is that because you would have bought Iron Snakes shoulderpads at GW prices, everyone would have?
Again: absurdity.

There's no need to go through the process of making a new model, all they are doing is adding insignia to a GW master they already have (which is what some posters are infering with regard to CH). Let's be real here, how long would it take a GW model maker to add some insignia's to a pad or a Rhino door? No time at all and there would be no need to get it signed off by three different people. They could even use some of the masters made by Forge World and make metal molds from them. You send Bill around to the Forge World office, he picks them up, hands then to Harry in production, he makes a mould / moulds and Bill takes the originals back.

Except unlike CH, Harry and Bill both have fixed salaries and health benefits. They don't get paid whenever they submit something.

Forge World, also, is not a fixture that they just say "Hey guys, we need you to pick up some slack for us".

Forge World has its own, completely independent operation to maintain. They don't have the time, or likely the inclination, to play second fiddle to some amateur sculptor.

Well done on competley forgeting / ignoring the basic concept of modeling, even though it has been posted in this discussion may times. Let just remind you of it, it's called "conversions". A big chunk of the gaming scene is made up of guys who do conversions or are inspired to build another army. Why is this? It's because they read a book about the Iron Snakes, they see an old 40k comic strip, have passion for a certain army in history or were just flicking through an back issue of WD and were inspired by an old article. THAT is why they would make a new army. So saying it's "absurdity means you fail to undersatnd the idea of what gaming really means, and that then you are simply a GW drone.

**Kanluwen**

Brotherjulian wrote: I think the car parts analogy is right. CHS wasn't making knock-off landraiders, just parts. This is like Ford suing Cragar or American Racing because they make wheels for a Mustang
Or Chrysler, a quick look at Cragar's website just revealed them modelling wheels on a new Challenger.

...And again with the fething tires.

Chapterhouse parts are not necessary to build Games Workshop's models. GW does not require you to buy CH(or any other company for that matter) products to complete your models.

A better analogy would be seat covers, stereo, GPS, or anything except fething tires.

Of course CH does offer items that GW does not ie Howling Griffon and Snake dude shoulder pads. So there is that.

And what about it? Iron Snakes are so obscure that Wolfstan is really the first person I've heard of who were actually interested in doing them.

Howling Griffons are an "eh" example. Especially considering that they're supposed to be one of the Chapters that are getting Forge World(which is traditionally responsible for the more 'obscure' Chapters or responding to fan demand) infantry shoulderpads and/or a transfer sheet with IA10.

**Sidstyler**

Ian Sturrock wrote:If the only real issue is whether CH's style of sculpting is sufficiently like GW's ranges (and as a part of that issue, whether GW's ranges are distinctive enough), this area just gets greyer and greyer... and it'll be a fascinating case to watch from an IP law perspective, whoever wins.

You mean, it would be an interesting case, if Chapterhouse had the money to actually meet them in court. As is it is right now I think GW will win just from burying them in legal fees.

Sometimes I don't understand how the hell our legal system actually works. Not a fan of this "Whoever has more money wins" bs, myself...

**Kanluwen**

Wolfstan wrote:
Well done on completely forgeting / ignoring the basic concept of modeling, even though it has been posted in this discussion may times. Let just remind you of it, it's called "conversions".

And "conversions" don't necessarily require you to buy a piece from some schmuck who will sell you a crummily sculpted bit.

A big chunk of the gaming scene is made up of guys who do conversions or are inspired to build another army.

And a portion of that "big chunk of the gaming scene" will just strip their old models and go a new direction. There's also the portion that never actually paints anything and calls people who do paint their models stupid for "ruining the resale value".

Why is this? It's because they read a book about the Iron Snakes, they see an old 40k comic strip, have passion for a certain army in history or were just flicking through an back issue of WD and were inspired by an old article. THAT is why they would make a new army. So saying it's "absurdity" means you fail to understand the idea of what gaming really means, and that then you are simply a GW drone.

No, the absurdity is your belief that the simple "lack" of a certain bit prevents people from doing those new armies.

For someone who lectured me on the "basic concept of modeling", I'd think you would understand that part of modeling is constantly expanding your skills and moving beyond your comfort zone.

**Ulver**

Kanluwen wrote:No, Ulver. I'm saying that the only thing Chapterhouse really has going for them is the fact that their stuff is dirt cheap. It's crap, by and large, that doesn't actually really fit the GW aesthetic and appeals to people who aren't willing to take the time and do the work themselves.

That's only your opinion; no matter how many times you repeat it, it won't become objective fact. Some people think it's crap, other people think it's good. Some people think some of it is good, and the rest is crap. Different strokes for different folks, aye? You're not the only person with an opinion*.

And let's face it, one collector liked them enough to use on his army that GW liked enough to feature in their daily blog.

* As the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes...

**Wolfstan**

Kanluwen wrote:
Wolfstan wrote:
Well done on completely forgeting / ignoring the basic concept of modeling, even though it has been posted in this discussion may times. Let just remind you of it, it's called "conversions".

And "conversions" don't necessarily require you to buy a piece from some schmuck who will sell you a crummily sculpted bit.

A big chunk of the gaming scene is made up of guys who do conversions or are inspired to build another army.

And a portion of that "big chunk of the gaming scene" will just strip their old models and go a new direction. There's also the portion that never actually paints anything and calls people who do paint their models stupid for "ruining the resale value".

Why is this? It's because they read a book about the Iron Snakes, they see an old 40k comic strip, have passion for a certain army in history or were just flicking through an back issue of WD and were inspired by an old article. THAT is why they would make a new army. So saying it's "absurdity" means you fail to understand the idea of what gaming really means, and that then you are simply a GW drone.

No, the absurdity is your belief that the simple "lack" of a certain bit prevents people from doing those new armies.

For someone who lectured me on the "basic concept of modeling", I'd think you would understand that part of modeling is constantly expanding your skills and moving beyond your comfort zone.

Not if you want to make an army that has 50 models in it. Any way as you've already shown, just because you've not heard of the Iron Snakes that must mean nobody else has or would of been interested in making an army.

**Polonius**

Guys, I think it's telling that Kan keeps arguing with you, but in no way acknowledged that actual case law and material I presented. He's just in it for the fight.

**Kanluwen**

Wolfstan wrote:
Not if you want to make an army that has 50 models in it. Any way as you've already shown, just because you've not heard of the Iron Snakes that must mean nobody else has or would of been interested in making an army.

Oh, 50 models? Boohoo, that's going to be so much work for you to sculpt or freehand a small snake onto the shoulderpads.

Sidenote:
My statement was that "Iron Snakes are so obscure that Wolfstan is really the first person I've heard of who were actually interested in doing them."
Don't play this cutesy misquoting crap with statements that are available to you in this thread.

Ulver wrote:And let's face it, one collector liked them enough to use on his army that GW liked enough to feature in their daily blog.

And let's face it, that was only one bit that was used and what's more it was for an army that was given very little in terms of model support(compared to the Blood Angels or Space Wolves).

See? I can make rationalizations to make my point look good too.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Polonius wrote:Guys, I think it's telling that Kan keeps arguing with you, but in no way acknowledged that actual case law and material I presented. He's just in it for the fight.

And I think it's telling that you ignored the fact that I already acknowledged "the actual case law and material you presented".

Two pages back, actually.

Kanluwen wrote:
Polonius wrote:So that count might be dismissible as none of GW's trademarks are likely to be found as "famous."

I dunno about that. You show anyone a picture of a Space Marine model or an image of a Space Marine, period, they'll usually be able to relate it to Games Workshop.

You were saying?

**brettz123**

Kanluwen wrote:
And what about it? Iron Snakes are so obscure that Wolfstan is really the first person I've heard of who were actually interested in doing them.

Howling Griffons are an "eh" example. Especially considering that they're supposed to be one of the Chapters that are getting Forge World(which is traditionally responsible for the more 'obscure' Chapters or responding to fan demand) infantry shoulderpads and/or a transfer sheet with IA10.

Well I have been interested in doing them for some time. I would love Forge World to do Howling Griffon pads and I would have bought the CH ones by now if I wasn't waiting to see how Forge World handles this. The Iron Snakes are probably fairly popular for one of the successor chapters. They did have a complete book about them by Dan Abnett you know. Now this isn't really the point of this thread but GW does a very bad job of cross media support. It would have cost them almost nothing to release the shoulder pads for the book release even if it was just a limited run. I can have a complete 28mm miniature sculpted for me by one of the top sculptors in the business for $500 so I am pretty sure a shoulder pad would be dirt cheap.

Anyway the point was that having shoulder pads available does get people to do new marine armies..... which you seem to disregard completely.

**Polonius**

@Kanluwen: Yeah, i was saying that you seem to have ignored what I wrote.

like, the four times I explained how a famous trademark is judged based on the entire national consumer base. Or how at least one court described it as being a household name.

My point is, you seem to have no interest in the actual case, at this point. There is actually some tools at our disposal to discuss the merits of the case. Although relentlessly arguing with people that GW isn't wrong is apparently more fun.

**Black Fiend**

Polonius wrote:Guys, I think it's telling that Kan keeps arguing with you, but in no way acknowledged that actual case law and material I presented. He's just in it for the fight.

Seriously it sounds like you have a vested interest if you know what I mean.

**Kanluwen**

brettz123 wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
And what about it? Iron Snakes are so obscure that Wolfstan is really the first person I've heard of who were actually interested in doing them.

Howling Griffons are an "eh" example. Especially considering that they're supposed to be one of the Chapters that are getting Forge World(which is traditionally responsible for the more 'obscure' Chapters or responding to fan demand) infantry shoulderpads and/or a transfer sheet with IA10.

Well I have been interested in doing them for some time. I would love Forge World to do Howling Griffon pads and I would have bought the CH ones by now if I wasn't waiting to see how Forge World handles this. The Iron Snakes are probably fairly popular for one of the successor chapters. They did have a complete book about them by Dan Abnett you know.

They didn't exist before Dan Abnett wrote the book, actually.

Now this isn't really the point of this thread but GW does a very bad job of cross media support. It would have cost them almost nothing to release the shoulder pads for the book release even if it was just a limited run.

See above. The Iron Snake book were also some of the worst sellers in the Black Library line-up, from what I've been led to understand from talking with various authors/BL employees.

There's a reason why it's "Out of Stock" on the Black Library site. It's not scheduled to be republished at any time.

I can have a complete 28mm miniature sculpted for me by one of the top sculptors in the business for $500 so I am pretty sure a shoulder pad would be dirt cheap.

And you're still not getting the point.

GW doesn't pay sculptors to do one product at a time.
They maintain the sculptors on a permanent basis, and also provide the standard benefits that employees of companies would receive.

Anyway the point was that having shoulder pads available does get people to do new marine armies..... which you seem to disregard completely.

No, I just see it as an outlying factor that really doesn't play much of a part other than exhibit the laziness inherent in some people in the hobby.
If I were to want to do Iron Snakes bad enough, them lacking shoulderpads wouldn't have stopped me.

**Kroothawk**

Polonius wrote:All right, so after some my above research, this is my completely non-expert, in no way binding opinion.

It seems to me that the question here is if CH marketed their products as examples of GW's trademarked names, or as products to be used with GW products bearing the trademarked names.

I haven't delved in the Illinois state claims, but it seems like the laws prevent you from making a product and selling it under a trademark. So, you can't produce hyper-modern human infantry and sell them as cadians.

The law does allow you to refer to trademarks when unavoidable. You can produce parts that fit unto GW Cadians and call that to buyers' attention.

There is a very blurry area with CH stuff. It's simply going to be a factual question if people think they're trying to rep themselves as selling GW goods as opposed to accessories for GW goods. As dopey as it sounds, the massive disclaimers actually come into play here. When you explicitly state that you aren't GW, it's hard for GW to claim that you're trying to dupe people into thinking that you are GW.

In the end, this is actually a pretty interesting set of facts. Chapterhouse is probably pretty in the clear on a lot of this stuff. They may have crossed the line a few times, but I feel confident saying that everybody in this thread, and the other one, that seems to think this is a slamdunk win for GW is incorrect. For GW to prevail will take a fair amount of fact finding. Some of GW's claims are going to involve showing public knowledge of their marks. Others are going to have to show that Chapterhouse's scuplts are substantially similar to something GW has created. Still others will require that GW show that CH could not meet the three part nominative use test. So, if CH needed to use the marks to market their product, used as minimal of the mark as possible, and did not imply endorsement, CH could prevail.

Trademark laws generally are there to prevent far more brazen attempts. Things like a company using fonts, logos, or artwork of the trademark. Things like trying to cash in on the mark owners fame (the starbucks dry cleaner example). Or, most commonly, outright copying or trading under the owners name.

As moronic as it sounds, that Chapterhouse presented their stuff as an add-on, not a complete replacement, will actually really help them here.

Sounds like a reasonable and realistic analysis based on existing legal documents. I just repost it here so it doesn't get burried under all the emotional posts not based on a thorough analysis..

Kanluwen wrote:Then CH's biggest supporters are full of crap Their statements of "I buy CH's pads because they're cheaper alternatives" just mean "I buy CH's pads because I like my models looking like crap".

Hmm, another of Kanluwen's "full of crap" posts

BTW when was the Dark Eldar Battleforce released and what will be the price for the Storm Raven? Was it 35-40$ according to your post?

**Polonius**

Black Fiend wrote:
Polonius wrote:Guys, I think it's telling that Kan keeps arguing with you, but in no way acknowledged that actual case law and material I presented. He's just in it for the fight.

Seriously it sounds like you have a vested interest if you know what I mean.

In what? I'll cop to personal dislike of Kan, and he's posting habits.

I'm also interested in the actual legal merits of the case. If you're insinuating that I'm affiliated with CH or representing them, I can give you my ohio Bar number and you find out that I'm not licensed in Illinois, nor have I filed to appear in front of any federal court.

It's also a pet peeve that people argue these issues in a vacuum of facts.

**Kanluwen**

Polonius wrote:@Kanluwen: Yeah, i was saying that you seem to have ignored what I wrote.

like, the four times I explained how a famous trademark is judged based on the entire national consumer base. Or how at least one court described it as being a household name.

My point is, you seem to have no interest in the actual case, at this point. There is actually some tools at our disposal to discuss the merits of the case. Although relentlessly arguing with people that GW isn't wrong is apparently more fun.

You explained "how a famous trademark is judged based on the entire national consumer base" after I made my reply to your earlier point. You didn't start in until page 26 with that part. My reply was the end of page 25.

Nobody's discussing the "merits of the case". None of us, including you, are qualified to really discuss it. We're discussing the fact that Chapterhouse is getting sued, and speculating as to the outcome.

As you said: IP law is "murky at best". So what the feth is the point in discussing the case?

**Alpharius**

This would probably be a good time to remind everyone to STAY CALM.

Really, why anyone outside of GW HQ and/or Chapterhouse would be getting all hot under the collar is, well...

So, there you have it!

**Black Fiend**

Okay all the CH Nazis to the right!! All the GW apologists to the far left. LETS GET READY TO RUMBLE !!!

**Polonius**

Kanluwen wrote:
You explained "how a famous trademark is judged based on the entire national consumer base" after I made my reply to your earlier point. You didn't start in until page 26 with that part. My reply was the end of page 25.

My initial post included the statutory definition. Either you aren't very skilled at reading comprehension, you posted without reading my entire post, or you posted what you did to be deliberately inflammatory. No matter what, you're not impressing me by claiming I didn't explain it.

Nobody's discussing the "merits of the case". None of us, including you, are qualified to really discuss it. We're discussing the fact that Chapterhouse is getting sued, and speculating as to the outcome.

As you said: IP law is "murky at best". So what the feth is the point in discussing the case?

I'm discussing the merits of the case. I have a lot of the facts, I have the law. What else do I need? Yes, IP law is murky in that there are a lot of areas not explicitly covered, but as I've shown, there are literally cases already in the area of hobby gaming! I think things are less murky than they were before I did my research.

The overwhelming reaction I'm getting from my research is that anybody that seems to know 100% what will happen is delusional. And that includes you, man. I think that Chapterhouse can mount an effective defense, possibly effective enough to reach a settlement with GW that will allow them to remain in business.

**brettz123**

Ulver wrote:
* As the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes...

Actually my grandfather in law had ass cancer and they cut out his donkey-cave so that is a demonstrably wrong statement

**Polonius**

brettz123 wrote:
Ulver wrote:
* As the saying goes, opinions are like arseholes...

Actually my grandfather in law had ass cancer and they cut out his donkey-cave so that is a demonstrably wrong statement

So he's walking around with a bag of his own feces. How is that any better?

**MeanGreenStompa**

It was mentioned some pages back that GW have filed this a good geographical distance from Chapterhouse's location of Texas.

Is it possible for Chapterhouse to request the case is moved to Texas? I can see a tactic for making the distance and travelling involved a weapon for increasing cost and 'pricing out' the opponent in a case.

Could it be argued that GW is an international company and can locate there for the case?

**Howard A Treesong**

Gibbsey wrote:
NELS1031 wrote:
Lokirfellheart wrote: It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.

To me it looks more like a slowed cousin to the GW standard Zoanthrope. Not CHs finest work. Its the razorgor of their product line. Tastes vary of course.

They also plugged that mini in the tyranid wave 2 thread, then called into question why GW should even release a Doom of Malantai model, as they have it covered. All of the bit kits and such with neutral icons and weapon variants, thats aftermarket accessories. Creating a product to use in place of someone elses unreleased product, thats wanting to be a direct competitor. That to me is crossing the line into iffy legal territory. I gave an example of that in the other thread.

This exactly

Also for everyone one of these bought GW is losing out because someone isnt buying a zoan to convert into the doom (which honestly does not look hard)

The argument in cases such as this that every chapterhouse sale is a loss to GW is clearly false. Just because someone buys something from CH does not mean that they would have otherwise have bought it from GW, a person may not feel they get value for money from GW or they may not like the GW model.

Kanluwen wrote:And even then, in CH's case it all comes down to the fact that the bits are ridiculously cheap. If they were at a different price point, the company would have gone under by now for selling overpriced crap.

Polonius is probably the most valuable contributor on this thread. All you are now doing is to call CH crap time and again. Chapterhouse aren't that cheap IMO, you've been buying GW too long. Tiny parts like shoulder pads and guns are 50p-£1 on the CH site, that's not 'ridiculously cheap' it's probably fair. It's well known that Forgeworld is expensive, they are one of the most costly resin producers I can think of. You can get whole figures for 50p-£1 outside GW, it's only GW plastic kits for instance where figures are commonly £2 a pop or more. GW charges £10 for 10 resin bolters on FW which is more than CH but that doesn't make them "ridiculously cheap" and is they were "crap" then people wouldn't buy them.

Kanluwen wrote:Nobody's discussing the "merits of the case". None of us, including you, are qualified to really discuss it. We're discussing the fact that Chapterhouse is getting sued, and speculating as to the outcome.

As you said: IP law is "murky at best". So what the feth is the point in discussing the case?

It certainly is a murky subject but that doesn't make it a free for all for armchair lawyers or excuse the blundering around of some contributors. Actually this last post of yours comes across as an attempt to backpedal because you're clearly out of your depth making silly remarks and hoping to write off the whole discussion instead of responding to criticism of your statements. While it's true there's a lot of grey areas it's also true that some members can at least cast some light on it making informed discussion possible. So lets not pretend that A) the discussion isn't worth having or B) that *nobody* is qualified to discuss it. Even if it would suit you, given your conduct over the last few pages.

**Dysartes**

A quick question for you, Polonius, that I don't think I've seen a straight(ish) answer crop up to previously - before asking, I want to be clear that I acknowledge your usual disclaimer about not being my lawyer, etc

In general terms, what impact on a case does inaccuracies on the initial filing usually have?

We've seen a couple of points in the GW that may well be quite inaccurate, and I'm curious as to what effect they may have on the case as a whole.

**brettz123**

Kanluwen wrote:
They didn't exist before Dan Abnett wrote the book, actually.

See above. The Iron Snake book were also some of the worst sellers in the Black Library line-up, from what I've been led to understand from talking with various authors/BL employees.

GW doesn't pay sculptors to do one product at a time.
They maintain the sculptors on a permanent basis, and also provide the standard benefits that employees of companies would receive.

No, I just see it as an outlying factor that really doesn't play much of a part other than exhibit the laziness inherent in some people in the hobby.
If I were to want to do Iron Snakes bad enough, them lacking shoulderpads wouldn't have stopped me.

Ok I will take your points one at a time:

1. Obviously they did not exist before the book..... thanks for cluing all of us in on that one.

2. Even if it was a poor seller there still have to be a number of people who would want to build an army like that.

3. GW can make a shoulder pad in a matter of minutes. They don't need to hire a new sculptor to do that it would be easy and cost them nothing. Also there is nothing stopping them from hiring free lancers to do an odd project just because they do not do that doesn't make it unreasonable for them to actually do so. In fact they would save money by your own admission by not having to give these people benefits.

4. Several people in this thread have already told you that they and other people they know have and would start a new marine army if specific shoulder pads were available. So there is your proof. Now if your assertion is that 1000 people wouldn't start a new army because of a specific shoulder pad you might have a point but your overly broad assertions are easily provable as incorrect.