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Absolutionis wrote:LittleLeadMen, I additionally notice, from your blog, that you buy from Irondog Studios.

...

What argument do you have against Chapterhouse again?

Oh, this is priceless! Now we have an inquisition to determine who can and who cannot speak on this topic? Background and model checks for everyone who dares to condemn Chapterhouse or GW, I say. Well, I for one own no CH materials, and anyone who wants to pay their own air fare can examine my collection for themselves.

Polonius wrote:I think the problem people are having with LittleLeadMen's posts is that he's claiming not to be emotionally charged, but I'm apparently not the only one to read some vitriol into his posts.

Nope, I see it too

kanluwen wrote:CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given.

Really? As someone who has actually discussed having their sculpts produced by CHS, I can tell you they are not interested in going through the expense of making a mold for a product that will have no interest outside of a couple of people.

And for the people who have repeatedly stated that CHS have used GW parts when sculpting their new bits, I have to relieve you of that little illusion as well. There is a reason that CHS have pics of their original GS sculpts up next to their painted examples of their products, to illustrate the point that there was no use of GW parts in their production.

kanluwen wrote:And how many people do you think would have bought those Iron Snakes bits?

Likely it would have taken up until now to actually make back the cost of a full production run

Correct me if I'm wrong Chapterhouse, but in a garage company like CHS I do not beleive there is such thing as a "production run" , a mold is made, an example is cast and the website is updated. As orders come in the bits are cast the first couple of sales pays for the mold and the rest are profit.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Absolutionis wrote:LittleLeadMen, I additionally notice, from your blog, that you buy from Irondog Studios.

...

What argument do you have against Chapterhouse again?

Oh, this is priceless! Now we have an inquisition to determine who can and who cannot speak on this topic? Background and model checks for everyone who dares to condemn Chapterhouse or GW, I say. Well, I for one own none of their materials, and anyone who wants to pay their own air fare can examine my collection for themselves.

Dude, you are being overly dramatic and distorting that quote. LittleLeadMen was VERY aggresively bashing on Chapterhouse, and Absolutions pointed out that he himself had admitted buying from other companies that did exactly what CH did with GW IP (albeit to a lesser extent). He cited the posts, and then posted links to the other companies doing the same thing the poster was going nuts on.

You would have to read the whole thing a few pages back, but honestly, Absolutions was perfectly justified to call Shenanigans on LittleLeadMen for calling the kettle black given his admitted buying habits.

I too frequently get pissed when I think certain ...gentlemen... on this board seem to derail every single news and rumor thread with their strong desire to quash any opinion not matching their own, often aggresively and honestly, without need. But truthfully in this case I think you got Absolutions wrong.

The courts will decide this one peeps, none of us are on jury duty let's all just take it easy, it will sort itself out...

kanluwen wrote:CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given.

Really? As someone who has actually discussed having their sculpts produced by CHS, I can tell you they are not interested in going through the expense of making a mold for a product that will have no interest outside of a couple of people.

Nice example of a cut and paste shenanigan.
"CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given" refers to the quality of the sculpt, not the idea behind it.

And even then, in CH's case it all comes down to the fact that the bits are ridiculously cheap. If they were at a different price point, the company would have gone under by now for selling overpriced crap.

And for the people who have repeatedly stated that CHS have used GW parts when sculpting their new bits, I have to relieve you of that little illusion as well. There is a reason that CHS have pics of their original GS sculpts up next to their painted examples of their products, to illustrate the point that there was no use of GW parts in their production.

And I'd have to call you a liar. Chapterhouse caught hell for it when they were showcasing their Rhino Doors, which were sculpted directly onto actual Rhino Doors.

kanluwen wrote:And how many people do you think would have bought those Iron Snakes bits?

Likely it would have taken up until now to actually make back the cost of a full production run

Correct me if I'm wrong Chapterhouse, but in a garage company like CHS I do not believe there is such thing as a "production run" , a mold is made, an example is cast and the website is updated. As orders come in the bits are cast the first couple of sales pays for the mold and the rest are profit.

Okay, and that has what to do with what I said?

The example was dealing with why Games Workshop did not produce a line of bits for a relatively obscure Chapter like the Iron Snakes.
GW pays to maintain a full production capability so that you don't have a month or more just to get one set of bits, and has to employ(and maintain the employment of, alongside of providing health benefits, etc. Everything a normal employer has to worry about) their sculptors, the people managing the machines and supervising the production, etc etc.

There's no comparison.

Interesting stuff, Polonius. Sounds like CH's legal advice was pretty solid, and GW is overreaching, here. Again, I think that GW's recognition of conversions, and even encouragement of conversions, will make a difference when it comes to the whole aftermarket parts issue -- if it's clear that not only does the law allow nominative use of trademarks, etc., but that GW encourages, and is a part of a wider miniatures gaming and modelling hobby that has always encompassed, extensive conversion, I don't see CH having much trouble in that regard.

If the only real issue is whether CH's style of sculpting is sufficiently like GW's ranges (and as a part of that issue, whether GW's ranges are distinctive enough), this area just gets greyer and greyer... and it'll be a fascinating case to watch from an IP law perspective, whoever wins.

Kanluwen wrote:

And for the people who have repeatedly stated that CHS have used GW parts when sculpting their new bits, I have to relieve you of that little illusion as well. There is a reason that CHS have pics of their original GS sculpts up next to their painted examples of their products, to illustrate the point that there was no use of GW parts in their production.

And I'd have to call you a liar. Chapterhouse caught hell for it when they were showcasing their Rhino Doors, which were sculpted directly onto actual Rhino Doors.

Out of interest, when was that, Kan? I thought I'd seen a statement from earlier in this thread indicating they'd made a "blank", for want of a better term, which was the right dimensions to act as a Rhino door, and someone claiming that that was another infringement.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Interesting stuff, Polonius. Sounds like CH's legal advice was pretty solid, and GW is overreaching, here. Again, I think that GW's recognition of conversions, and even encouragement of conversions, will make a difference when it comes to the whole aftermarket parts issue -- if it's clear that not only does the law allow nominative use of trademarks, etc., but that GW encourages, and is a part of a wider miniatures gaming and modelling hobby that has always encompassed, extensive conversion, I don't see CH having much trouble in that regard.

How does encouraging people to make their own "one of a kind works of art" translate to "mass produce bits so you can make works of art, just like everyone else who buys our bits!"?



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Dysartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

And for the people who have repeatedly stated that CHS have used GW parts when sculpting their new bits, I have to relieve you of that little illusion as well. There is a reason that CHS have pics of their original GS sculpts up next to their painted examples of their products, to illustrate the point that there was no use of GW parts in their production.

And I'd have to call you a liar. Chapterhouse caught hell for it when they were showcasing their Rhino Doors, which were sculpted directly onto actual Rhino Doors.

Out of interest, when was that, Kan? I thought I'd seen a statement from earlier in this thread indicating they'd made a "blank", for want of a better term, which was the right dimensions to act as a Rhino door, and someone claiming that that was another infringement.

I want to say it was whenever they started showing off the Salamanders doors, if I remember right.

Like I said: I don't maintain a close eye on the CH threads. I really do try to cut down on the amount of times I get involved in their tomfoolery, I swear!

Kanluwen, because if an important part of the hobby is that you kitbash new creations using a variety of parts, it's pretty clear that there's a market for compatible parts.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Kanluwen, because if an important part of the hobby is that you kitbash new creations using a variety of parts, it's pretty clear that there's a market for compatible parts.

But that doesn't mean that it's acceptable for companies to fill that market need without licensing.

Well -- it might, if it's perfectly acceptable in industries in general, for manufacturers to make aftermarket parts that are designed and marketed to be "compatible with X". We're just speculating as to whether it *is* or *isn't* acceptable, as only a court will decide, but it seems perfectly possible that it'll decide that CH are in the clear.

Ian Sturrock wrote:Well -- it might, if it's perfectly acceptable in industries in general, for manufacturers to make aftermarket parts that are designed and marketed to be "compatible with X".

Says who? Name me an example.

And it cannot be a car part, because as we've already established, if you use parts that are not certified by the manufacturer of your car it voids the warranty. We've also established that tires are not a good analogue, at all, to this situation.

We're just speculating as to whether it *is* or *isn't* acceptable, as only a court will decide, but it seems perfectly possible that it'll decide that CH are in the clear.

I doubt that. I really do.

Going to repost, as I doubt some people have seen the edits in earlier posts:


I'm only going to address this once, because frankly, this whole thread is getting tedious. Let them have their day in court. I personally believe they will lose. I only posted, which I rarely do, because CH was posting in the actual threads, and it seemed like a way to engage them and discuss it. They clearly don't want to discuss it in a real way.

I'm fairly surprised that so many people feel my posts here are full of vitriol. To be full of vitriol, it requires excessive cruelty. I don't believe that I've been cruel here in any way. I don't believe that it's cruel, mean, or angry to express objections over how a business handles itself. I don't believe that it's cruel to have a small measure of pleasure in seeing a business fail because it infringes on the rights of other businesses. Especially when the business in question fails to recognize or acknowledge its essential, fundamental nature and business practices.

Here's the fundamental reality of the situation:
CH is a business that depends on a parasitic relationship with a larger more successful company to exist. That's the simple truth of the matter. That CH denies this reality and expresses anger when people state it is either self-deluding or a defense mechanism. There's a certain amount of irony in watching a parasitic business model complain that the host is too aggressive.

That's not emotional. It's not cruel. It's not vitriolic. It's just really clinical and specific.

I think a lot of people have problems with that, as they don't like to have honest, direct conversations about this issue. Frankly, my hat is off to Polonius throughout this whole discussion! While I don't agree with his position completely re: the level of infringement, he's clear, and specific. I appreciate that.

To summarize:

1. I don't have any problems with aftermarket 3rd party manufacturers. I've stated that, but some of you have missed it. Some of you find my use of 3rd party tracks as some sort of condemning act, even though I clearly stated I don't have issues with them. And in that specific instance, the tracks were sold as "crusher" tracks, didn't use GW IP to identify them, and GW makes no model that it would compete with.

Generally speaking, I have no issue with "generic parts" and more of an issue with full models.

2. The crux of my complaint re: Chapterhouse is that I believe CH uses the explantation of "nominal use" in an inaccurate way. You can't claim "nominal use" when the item being sold is a knockoff. For example, I can't claim nominal use of "Gucci" to sell a knockoff version of a Gucci handbag, and further claim that the only wy to sell my knockoff is to use the Gucci name to explain my product.

3. Given the multitude of complaints and comments CH has received for some time, and their belligerent attitude, it's fairly ironic and funny to see them in their current legal situation. Especially because they were so adamant for so long, and because they used to claim that a lack of litigation was a tacit approval of their business by GW. Given the audacity of those kind of statements, I don't think it's entirely appropriate to bring them up and question CH on them.

4. People here seem to take this very personally. This is business. If I rooted for any company to go out of business, (like Kinkos) nobody would care. You could give specific complaints or reasons as to why you would enjoy seeing that business shut down (like Kinkos poor customer service!).
Yet when one does the exact same thing here, you assume I'm vitriolic. There's no cruelty in appreciating the free market at work, and seeing inferior products removed from the marketplace.

I'm an advocate for IP rights of creators, as well as open markets that operate fairly. I take objection to the poor quality of CH's product, the use of GW imagery (in ways that other companies don't, such as Kromlech, Pig Iron, etc), and the use of specific GW IP to sell or name the items.

5. My objections are larger here and compounded by CH's insistence on (metaphorically) shouting down everyone in the town square that has distinct objections. It's fairly odd to present a specific set of comments directed to them, only to have them respond that I "need my eyes opened", rather than address the specific points.

The example was dealing with why Games Workshop did not produce a line of bits for a relatively obscure Chapter like the Iron Snakes.
GW pays to maintain a full production capability so that you don't have a month or more just to get one set of bits, and has to employ(and maintain the employment of, alongside of providing health benefits, etc. Everything a normal employer has to worry about) their sculptors, the people managing the machines and supervising the production, etc etc.

I could be wrong here, but didn't GW switch to casting out of production bits, if and when needed? They weren't going to keep them on the shelf? If I'm remembering something that never happened, then I apologise, but if not, surely they could be applying that approach to such things as custom shoulder pads? How hard would it be to make half a dozen pads and have the mold to hand for when needed.

Kanluwen wrote:
Nice example of a cut and paste shenanigan.
"CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given" refers to the quality of the sculpt, not the idea behind it.

I was responding to the statement you posted, not the statement you believed you were making. If you don't want people quoting you erroneously post clearer comments.
And the idea that CHS would receive any sculpt in the mail and cast it in the hope to make a profit is ridiculous, and I'm guessing designed to be inflammatory.

Kanluwen wrote:And I'd have to call you a liar. Chapterhouse caught hell for it when they were showcasing their Rhino Doors, which were sculpted directly onto actual Rhino Doors

Well you are welcome to call me wrong, and if I am I can cop to that, but a liar? Again why the aggressive stance, did CHS touch in a nuaghty place when you were a child?

Wolfstan wrote:

The example was dealing with why Games Workshop did not produce a line of bits for a relatively obscure Chapter like the Iron Snakes.
GW pays to maintain a full production capability so that you don't have a month or more just to get one set of bits, and has to employ(and maintain the employment of, alongside of providing health benefits, etc. Everything a normal employer has to worry about) their sculptors, the people managing the machines and supervising the production, etc etc.

I could be wrong here, but didn't GW switch to casting out of production bits, if and when needed? They weren't going to keep them on the shelf? If I'm remembering something that never happened, then I apologise, but if not, surely they could be applying that approach to such things as custom shoulder pads? How hard would it be to make half a dozen pads and have the mold to hand for when needed.

They switched to casting out of production bits, if and when needed, fairly recently(within the past four or so years I think).

It was about the time they drastically cut down on their bits catalog and the infamous "Bits Collapse" happened in the Glen Burnie warehouse.


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BLACKHAND wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Nice example of a cut and paste shenanigan.
"CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given" refers to the quality of the sculpt, not the idea behind it.

I was responding to the statement you posted, not the statement you believed you were making. If you don't want people quoting you erroneously post clearer comments.
And the idea that CHS would receive any sculpt in the mail and cast it in the hope to make a profit is ridiculous, and I'm guessing designed to be inflammatory.

No, you were trying to pull a common bullcrap attempt at "Quote Shenanigans" and I called you on it.

Kanluwen wrote:A lot more goes into sculpting than you think. They don't just sit down and whip it up in a day. GW has, despite what people will say here, a modicum of quality control that Chapterhouse doesn't. If something doesn't fit the aesthetic, it doesn't get produced. CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given.

That's the full quote.
And it's not wrong, if you actually look at CH's stuff compared to other companies like Scibor or MicroArts.

Kanluwen wrote:And I'd have to call you a liar. Chapterhouse caught hell for it when they were showcasing their Rhino Doors, which were sculpted directly onto actual Rhino Doors

Well you are welcome to call me wrong, and if I am I can cop to that, but a liar? Again why the aggressive stance, did CHS touch in a nuaghty place when you were a child?

No, I'm sick and tired of people acting like Chapterhouse is an innocent victim, being completely and wrongly accused by the vile oppression of an evil empire.

They're not. The fact that they feel the need to constantly remind us they "consult with a lawyer" should tell you that.

kanluwen wrote:And how many people do you think would have bought those Iron Snakes bits?

Likely it would have taken up until now to actually make back the cost of a full production run

Correct me if I'm wrong Chapterhouse, but in a garage company like CHS I do not believe there is such thing as a "production run" , a mold is made, an example is cast and the website is updated. As orders come in the bits are cast the first couple of sales pays for the mold and the rest are profit.

Okay, and that has what to do with what I said?

The example was dealing with why Games Workshop did not produce a line of bits for a relatively obscure Chapter like the Iron Snakes.
GW pays to maintain a full production capability so that you don't have a month or more just to get one set of bits, and has to employ(and maintain the employment of, alongside of providing health benefits, etc. Everything a normal employer has to worry about) their sculptors, the people managing the machines and supervising the production, etc etc.

There's no comparison.

I wasn't making a comparison, in fact you have lost me with your response. I was simply stating that CHS would have quite easily paid for their initial outlay in paying the for the sculpt and molds in the first few sales.

I suggest you go back and actually read my post.
My example was not, in any way whatsoever, dealing with Chapterhouse's expenses in setting out a sculpt or a mold.
It was in reply to a poster who commented that, if GW had produced an Iron Snakes set they likely would have made an extra 10 GBP on every Marine Squad he bought.

Kanluwen wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

And for the people who have repeatedly stated that CHS have used GW parts when sculpting their new bits, I have to relieve you of that little illusion as well. There is a reason that CHS have pics of their original GS sculpts up next to their painted examples of their products, to illustrate the point that there was no use of GW parts in their production.

And I'd have to call you a liar. Chapterhouse caught hell for it when they were showcasing their Rhino Doors, which were sculpted directly onto actual Rhino Doors.

Out of interest, when was that, Kan? I thought I'd seen a statement from earlier in this thread indicating they'd made a "blank", for want of a better term, which was the right dimensions to act as a Rhino door, and someone claiming that that was another infringement.

I want to say it was whenever they started showing off the Salamanders doors, if I remember right.

Like I said: I don't maintain a close eye on the CH threads. I really do try to cut down on the amount of times I get involved in their tomfoolery, I swear!

So you can't actually remember when they actually committed the heinous crime? So calling me a liar is based on a hazy recollection of something that may or may not have happened?

Class

And Dysartes has a point, in the case of shoulderpads at least CHS uses hand sculpted resin blanks to sculpt their GS designs onto. Again I am talking from actual personal experience as opposed to speculation based on something I think I remember reading in a post somewhere.

Kanluwen wrote:And it cannot be a car part, because as we've already established, if you use parts that are not certified by the manufacturer of your car it voids the warranty.

Sorry, Kan, I agree with much of what you've said in this thread, but you're wrong on this. See the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.

I very much believe the aftermarket car parts analogy is a reasonable one.

BLACKHAND wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Dysartes wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

And for the people who have repeatedly stated that CHS have used GW parts when sculpting their new bits, I have to relieve you of that little illusion as well. There is a reason that CHS have pics of their original GS sculpts up next to their painted examples of their products, to illustrate the point that there was no use of GW parts in their production.

And I'd have to call you a liar. Chapterhouse caught hell for it when they were showcasing their Rhino Doors, which were sculpted directly onto actual Rhino Doors.

Out of interest, when was that, Kan? I thought I'd seen a statement from earlier in this thread indicating they'd made a "blank", for want of a better term, which was the right dimensions to act as a Rhino door, and someone claiming that that was another infringement.

I want to say it was whenever they started showing off the Salamanders doors, if I remember right.

Like I said: I don't maintain a close eye on the CH threads. I really do try to cut down on the amount of times I get involved in their tomfoolery, I swear!

So you can't actually remember when they actually committed the heinous crime? So calling me a liar is based on a hazy recollection of something that may or may not have happened?
Class
And Dysartes has a point, in the case of shoulderpads at least CHS uses hand sculpted resin blanks to sculpt their GS designs onto. Again I am talking from actual personal experience as opposed to speculation based on something I think I remember reading in a post somewhere.

Where did I say it's a "heinous crime"?

I would say you're reading far, far too much into my posts...but I'm not sure you actually can read, given your failure to comprehend a relatively simple example I gave earlier.

But anyways, does Chapterhouse give you a discount for every time you defend them or try to paint the blame onto someone else?

Kanluwen, GW themselves acknowledge that people will use other manufacturers' kits as part of their conversions -- as an example, see this set of tourney rules:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390002_gt_player_packet.pdf

The majority of each converted mini has to be Citadel Miniatures parts, but it's fairly clearly understood from that IMO that the rest of it -- anything less than 50% -- could be from other manufacturers, or other sources in general.

(And before you ask -- I've never bought from CH, don't know them personally, have never exchanged emails etc. with them, and actually don't much like their forum attitude in general -- but I happen to think that both ethically and legally, they are probably in the right on this one).

BloodQuest wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And it cannot be a car part, because as we've already established, if you use parts that are not certified by the manufacturer of your car it voids the warranty.

Sorry, Kan, I agree with much of what you've said in this thread, but you're wrong on this. See the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act of 1975.

I very much believe the aftermarket car parts analogy is a reasonable one.

It's really not, at least in my opinion, though.

The fact that the usage of "noncertified car parts" voids the warranty seems to imply, to me at least, that there is a modicum of acceptance and a level of qualification by the original manufacturer that is required for a part to be considered 'valid' for use with that particular car.

The tire part that people were so fond of using earlier though...gah. That's a travesty of an analogue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ian Sturrock wrote:Kanluwen, GW themselves acknowledge that people will use other manufacturers' kits as part of their conversions -- as an example, see this set of tourney rules:

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390002_gt_player_packet.pdf

The majority of each converted mini has to be Citadel Miniatures parts, but it's fairly clearly understood from that IMO that the rest of it -- anything less than 50% -- could be from other manufacturers, or other sources in general.

Ehhh...

It seems, to me at least, to be more that "it's okay to mix our competitors' parts with our parts...provided the balance doesn't swing in their favor".

And I still maintain that CH, MA, MM, etc aren't competition. They're complementary sources, not competing.

Kanluwen wrote:And even then, in CH's case it all comes down to the fact that the bits are ridiculously cheap. If they were at a different price point, the company would have gone under by now for selling overpriced crap.

Seriously, that's the best line you've come out with so far! If my aunt had testicles and a penis she'd be my uncle.

So, if they were selling at a price above what the product is worth, they wouldn't sell anything? That goes for every business and product everywhere.



Serious question now: how old are you?

Ian Sturrock wrote:(And before you ask -- I've never bought from CH, don't know them personally, have never exchanged emails etc. with them, and actually don't much like their forum attitude in general -- but I happen to think that both ethically and legally, they are probably in the right on this one).

Pft, I wasn't about to ask

I really don't think they have an "ethical" or "legal" right in this. The fact that they continually feel the need to state things like "We've consulted with lawyers, it's okay guys!" or "GW hasn't came after us, so they're cool with it!"( How'd that one work out for you, guys? )validates my own personal opinion that they knew what they were doing was over the line.


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Ulver wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And even then, in CH's case it all comes down to the fact that the bits are ridiculously cheap. If they were at a different price point, the company would have gone under by now for selling overpriced crap.

Seriously, that's the best line you've come out with so far! If my aunt had testicles and a penis she'd be my uncle.
So, if they were selling at a price above what the product is worth, they wouldn't sell anything? That goes for every business and product everywhere.

No, Ulver. I'm saying that the only thing Chapterhouse really has going for them is the fact that their stuff is dirt cheap. It's crap, by and large, that doesn't actually really fit the GW aesthetic and appeals to people who aren't willing to take the time and do the work themselves.

Serious question now: how old are you?

Not that it has anything to do with the topic or my stance, I'm 23 and currently in college(Law Enforcement/Criminal Justice at a community college for the moment, transferring to a 4 year when I finish) while also maintaining a steady job.

Have you people seen the current pending news on the website- It shows a model they made that looks very similar to a Tyranid, and is blatantly described as being used as a Gribble, and they jokingly call it 'The doom of Chapterhouse'. Prehaps it will be.



Here it is in case it is removed soon:

One of the priviledges of running Chapterhouse is the ability to use the minis we create before anyone else can. This last Saturday I was able to put on the table our first alien mini with my tyranid army. I used him as a "Doom of Malantai (SP?)" I have to say it was akin to dropping a nuke on the board. His 6 inch aura ability is lethal when you couple it with a mycotic spore drop.

Production will begin this week, he is a our FIRST single piece pewter model which easily mounts on a 40 mm base (he has 2 tabs to mount in holes) and stands at 90 mm tall (without the base). Take a look below to see the painted version.

Witness "The Doom of Chapterhouse", hehe.

And it has a picture as well- It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.

I suggest you go back and actually read my post.
My example was not, in any way whatsoever, dealing with Chapterhouse's expenses in setting out a sculpt or a mold.
It was in reply to a poster who commented that, if GW had produced an Iron Snakes set they likely would have made an extra 10 GBP on every Marine Squad he bought.

I would also recommend that you re-read my post

At the time that the Iron Snakes book came out I did play around with making an Iron snakes force, but didn't fancy making my own individual pads, even though I'd been on a modeling course and knew how to make & cast a piece. If GW had made them and they had been sensible price I would of started building a force. They didn't and I'm sure that if they did, it would of added another £10 to the cost of a squad. Further back in time (about 15yrs), when I wanted to give my Blood Claws jump packs I ended up casting my own as it would of cost me £2 per pack, stupid money. My point is, if GW make these things (even if they were sold at a break even price) it would open the door for more models to be bought. As people keep saying, you have to have a base model for these bits to go on.

As you can see I say "I'm sure that if they did, it would of added another £10 to the cost of a squad". I'm not saying GW would of made £10, I saying that if GW had made custom shoulder pads, they would of been expensive in the usual GW way. GW could of made them as an extra bit, that may not of made them money on that bit, but the price covered the cost and, here's the marketing part, encouraged gamers to maybe start another army. As mentioned, if there had been custom pads around for th Iron Snakes at the time I would of probably bought into it. The fact that they do provide an ondemand casting service makes even more feasible.

There's no need to go through the process of making a new model, all they are doing is adding insignia to a GW master they already have (which is what some posters are infering with regard to CH). Let's be real here, how long would it take a GW model maker to add some insignia's to a pad or a Rhino door? No time at all and there would be no need to get it signed off by three different people. They could even use some of the masters made by Forge World and make metal molds from them. You send Bill around to the Forge World office, he picks them up, hands then to Harry in production, he makes a mould / moulds and Bill takes the originals back.

Wolfstan wrote: They could even use some of the masters made by Forge World and make metal molds from them.

Like this?:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine-Infantry-Accessories/ETCHED-BRASS-SPACE-WOLVES-SYMBOLS.html

So GW makes custom shoulderpads and custom doors and custom door markings... Almost everything CH seems to do is directly competing products using GWs designs and IP.

Lokirfellheart wrote: It looks nearly identical to a Zoanthrope.

To me it looks more like a slowed cousin to the GW standard Zoanthrope. Not CHs finest work. Its the razorgor of their product line. Tastes vary of course.

They also plugged that mini in the tyranid wave 2 thread, then called into question why GW should even release a Doom of Malantai model, as they have it covered. All of the bit kits and such with neutral icons and weapon variants, thats aftermarket accessories. Creating a product to use in place of someone elses unreleased product, thats wanting to be a direct competitor. That to me is crossing the line into iffy legal territory. I gave an example of that in the other thread.

Kanluwen wrote:

"CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given" refers to the quality of the sculpt, not the idea behind it.

And even then, in CH's case it all comes down to the fact that the bits are ridiculously cheap. If they were at a different price point, the company would have gone under by now for selling overpriced crap.

Even I have to take you to task on this a CH shoulder pad costs $1.00 and a GW one costs between $0.82 and $1.07 so chapter house isn't exactly priced to be cheap and outsell GW on price point. Now to the question of quality. Both companies have a real mixed bag of quality when it comes to shoulder pads. I have a lot of GW shoulder pads and some are at least as bad as the worst that CH offers. Now I think the best GW shoulder pads are better than the best CH shoulder pads but CH does produce some nice shoulder pads at a respectable price.

As you can see I say "I'm sure that if they did, it would of added another £10 to the cost of a squad". I'm not saying GW would of made £10, I'm saying that if GW had made custom shoulder pads, they would of been expensive in the usual GW way. GW could of made them as an extra bit, that may not of made them money on that bit, but the price covered the cost and, here's the marketing part, encouraged gamers to maybe start another army.

How does shoulderpads being available "encourage gamers to start another army"? That's absurdity, and you and I both know it.

As mentioned, if there had been custom pads around for the Iron Snakes at the time I would of probably bought into it. The fact that they do provide an ondemand casting service makes even more feasible.

So your argument is that because you would have bought Iron Snakes shoulderpads at GW prices, everyone would have?
Again: absurdity.

There's no need to go through the process of making a new model, all they are doing is adding insignia to a GW master they already have (which is what some posters are infering with regard to CH). Let's be real here, how long would it take a GW model maker to add some insignia's to a pad or a Rhino door? No time at all and there would be no need to get it signed off by three different people. They could even use some of the masters made by Forge World and make metal molds from them. You send Bill around to the Forge World office, he picks them up, hands then to Harry in production, he makes a mould / moulds and Bill takes the originals back.

Except unlike CH, Harry and Bill both have fixed salaries and health benefits. They don't get paid whenever they submit something.

Forge World, also, is not a fixture that they just say "Hey guys, we need you to pick up some slack for us".

Forge World has its own, completely independent operation to maintain. They don't have the time, or likely the inclination, to play second fiddle to some amateur sculptor.

GW may be a little excessive, but Disney would already have eaten Chapterhouse's children. This is how the 'market provides' under our glorious capitalist system - blame Ayn Rand if you don't like to see small companies steamrollered. From looking at the evidence, it would seem that their mistake was not calling their product 'generic sci-fi model pieces for unspecified space game x'. A more cautious approach would be to never mention 40k at all if you were in this kind of business, despite the obvious silliness of this tactic.

brettz123 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

"CH just markets whatever the hell crap they're given" refers to the quality of the sculpt, not the idea behind it.

And even then, in CH's case it all comes down to the fact that the bits are ridiculously cheap. If they were at a different price point, the company would have gone under by now for selling overpriced crap.

Even I have to take you to task on this a CH shoulder pad costs $1.00 and a GW one costs between $0.82 and $1.07 so chapter house isn't exactly priced to be cheap and outsell GW on price point. Now to the question of quality. Both companies have a real mixed bag of quality when it comes to shoulder pads. I have a lot of GW shoulder pads and some are at least as bad as the worst that CH offers. Now I think the best GW shoulder pads are better than the best CH shoulder pads but CH does produce some nice shoulder pads at a respectable price.

Then CH's biggest supporters are full of crap Their statements of "I buy CH's pads because they're cheaper alternatives" just mean "I buy CH's pads because I like my models looking like crap".