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 Medium of Death wrote:
It's not the Western societies problem, it's Islams problem with the West.

No, really. It is Islam's problem with the West, the East, the North, the South, and everything in between. It is Islam's problem period.

 Medium of Death wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
One big difference is that modern Christianity has been largely domesticated by Western values, while modern Islam is largely in a more retrograde, fundamentalist state.

Other way around. Those values come from Christianity. They certainly didn't burst out of nowhere.

Ah. Ah. Ah.
Here in France, one of the big step in the development of the idea of human rights was the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen, which was a direct result of the heavily anticlerical French revolution, inspired by the values of the Enlightenment philosophers. For hundreds of years when religion reigned unchallenged in France, we had a terrible system with no notion of human rights whatsoever. Then came in the largely theist philosophers of the Enlightenment, the very anticlerical revolution, and BANG! human rights. And the more Christianity was beaten into submission (yeah, not domesticated really, I do believe the appropriate expression is beaten into submission), the more the idea of human rights was allowed to flourish.

 whembly wrote:
Thanks.... was it always this bad?

Because I stayed in Paris for over two weeks about 11 years ago and visited Versailles / surrounding country sides. Had a fething blast in those towns.

You did not visit the gakky place he mentioned. Trust me. You had no reason to go there. There was no nice place to visit (and I mean none! Not a restaurant, not a bar, nothing at all!), and no-one to meet there.

 Medium of Death wrote:

Other way around. Those values come from Christianity. They certainly didn't burst out of nowhere.

Those values came from the Enlightenment and the Age of Reason. Before that, Christianity acted then pretty much like radical Muslims now. Witch burnings, sectarian war, and all the other fun you see in the middle east now were common in Europe then.

I need to correct one thing I saw earlier.

'Militant Atheist'

A Town Called Malus wrote:

jasper76 wrote:
And I have little doubt that fringe right-wing militia groups, who do train, have Christianity mixed up into the equation.



The IRA used to go to training camps in Libya, if I remember correctly.

Uhm, you might check your facts there.Thats media propagated inversion.

dreadclaw wrote:The IRA was not a right-wing group. The IRA was actually set up with a distinct socialist leaning. And, again, the IRA was motivated by nationalist and political goals - not religious.

Agreed DC. Up to a point (a very minor one) but the whole is still salient.

Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, King Richard, Saladin, Bush, Obama, De Gaulle, Thatcher, well Hell. None of those individuals drove the Brothers along with that 2nd pair to go all out Jihad (Jihad by their perception). Granted there is a portion of the Islamic Faith that are used (I pointed that earlier) which rings to what they believe in. Believe in strong enough to take action. Biggest issue now since three got smoked (hoping they take the last one alive just for intell) is to crack down and establish some HUMINT apparatus into the community. Someone supplied the weapons and ammo, someone supplied the vehicle, someone finance the damn thing.

 Jihadin wrote:
Stalin, Lenin, Hitler, King Richard, Saladin, Bush, Obama, De Gaulle, Thatcher, well Hell. None of those individuals drove the Brothers along with that 2nd pair to go all out Jihad (Jihad by their perception). Granted there is a portion of the Islamic Faith that are used (I pointed that earlier) which rings to what they believe in. Believe in strong enough to take action. Biggest issue now since three got smoked (hoping they take the last one alive just for intell) is to crack down and establish some HUMINT apparatus into the community. Someone supplied the weapons and ammo, someone supplied the vehicle, someone finance the damn thing.

Sometimes I feel HUMINT is a lost art.

I was really hoping that they'd get caught.

Very nice bit of spin on the death of policeman Ahmed Merabet.
Possibly random, possibly staged, entirely necessary:

"I am not Charlie, I am Ahmed the dead cop. Charlie ridiculed my faith and culture and I died defending his right to do so," wrote the Twitter user Dyab Abou Jahjah.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/09/europe/paris-charlie-hebdo-attack-jesuisahmed/

Couldn't have put it better.

 jasper76 wrote:
One big difference is that modern Christianity has been largely domesticated by Western values, while modern Islam is largely in a more retrograde, fundamentalist state.

I am reminded of this image:
You might think Christianity has been tamed, but as a non-religious person, I find all extremism looks very similar. Christianity might not be acting-up as much Islam right now, but it still has plenty of crazy and non-too-bright followers, ready to die kill for what they believe (which is pretty much anything they see on Fox news).

I highly doubt either of those pictures is offensive to anyone, except possibly hardcore Muslims.

And I would question the intelligence of anyone who couldn't tell the difference between the two.

I always liked Bender.

 Grey Templar wrote:
I highly doubt either of those pictures is offensive to anyone, except possibly hardcore Muslims.

I find Holly Hobby Lobby's face quite offensive. I don't know who the other girl is.

And I would question the intelligence of anyone who couldn't tell the difference between the two.

The differences are obvious, it's the similarities that are worrying. Right down to the flag in the background.

Whats offensive about it?

 Orlanth wrote:
"I am not Charlie, I am Ahmed the dead cop. Charlie ridiculed my faith and culture and I died defending his right to do so," wrote the Twitter user Dyab Abou Jahjah.

"I am not Charlie, I am Matt the regular guy. Comedians, public figures, people online, people in real life and all sorts of other groups ridicule my faith and culture all the damned time, and I've never once declared that I'm going to avenge anyone for it."

 Smacks wrote:
I am reminded of this image:

Spoiler:

You might think Christianity has been tamed, but as a non-religious person, I find all extremism looks very similar. Christianity might not be acting-up as much Islam right now, but it still has plenty of crazy and non-too-bright followers, ready to die kill for what they believe (which is pretty much anything they see on Fox news).

Question: The woman on the left, what group is she part of?

 Grey Templar wrote:
Whats offensive about it?

I think it's the self satisfied look on her face, and obvious lack of intelligence in her writing. Here is what she said about the picture:

What makes me sad is to know there are so many people who can’t see the difference between a woman in America, standing in front of the flag that represents our freedom – on Independence Day – holding the First and Second Amendments rights in her hands … and this woman who would honestly kill every single person in this country if given the chance.

She says, as a million people die in Iraq because "our" freedom was allegedly threatened. Does the other girl not think that her flag and weapon represent freedom for her people? It isn't hypocrisy, it's actually much stupider than that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Question: The woman on the left, what group is she part of?

EDIT: apparently she is Reem Saleh Al-Riyashi, a member of Hamas. She killed herself in an attack on an Israeli check point. Ironic that Holly should mention Independence day while referencing a woman who actually gave her life for Palestinian independence.

 jasper76 wrote:

 Matthew wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Matthew wrote:
The worst thing is that SD, a political party in Sweden, are blaiming muslims for this.

Well, it wasn't committed by Pastafarians now, was it?

Saying that this is Islam's fault is like saying a single murder by a fanatical Christian is Christianitys fault.

Apples and oranges. It is probably better to compare modern Islam to medieval Christianity.

Yeah, but what about all those white murderers? why isn't all that they do Christianitys fault?

 Smacks wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
One big difference is that modern Christianity has been largely domesticated by Western values, while modern Islam is largely in a more retrograde, fundamentalist state.

I am reminded of this image:

Spoiler:

You might think Christianity has been tamed, but as a non-religious person, I find all extremism looks very similar. Christianity might not be acting-up as much Islam right now, but it still has plenty of crazy and non-too-bright followers, ready to die kill for what they believe (which is pretty much anything they see on Fox news).

A very unfair comparison.

To see why try some others.

There is a heavy build man outside the door in both pictures, in one picture he is a burglar, in the other he is the bouncer.

Two people wearing face concealing masks, one is a bank robber, one is a Formula one driver.

Two guys carrying guns on a sandy plain in Afghanistan wearing combat fatiques. One is doing a combat tour in 'Ganners, the other is in the same vicinity and has signed up to kill the filthy western kuffah

Two women holding guns and standing in front of flags. One believes in the US of A, Jeeesus Halleluyah!, and the right to bear arms, America..feth Yeah! The other believes that if they take out enough people in a mad attack they will get 72 virgins and a first class ticket to Mohammed's side. Allah Akhbar, feth everyone!

Looks the same doesn't mean the same.

 Orlanth wrote:
Two guys carrying guns on a sandy plain in Afghanistan wearing combat fatiques. One is doing a combat tour in 'Ganners, the other is in the same vicinity and has signed up to kill the filthy western kuffah

Err... The difference there is mostly your own bias. What you call "doing a tour" some people might call "invading".

Two women holding guns and standing in front of flags. One believes in the US of A, Jeeesus Halleluyah!, and the right to bear arms, America..feth Yeah! The other believes that if they take out enough people in a mad attack they will get 72 virgins and a first class ticket to Mohammed's side. Allah Akhbar, feth everyone!

Again this is mostly your bias. The most crucial difference between the girls is that one of them lived in a country that was occupied by foreign invaders. Aside from that, they are both standing patriotically in front of their people's flag. They are both holding their sociogeographically determined 'holy book' (which they both believe in "madly"). They are both posing with weapons, and they both talk a lot about freedom and independence. One subtle difference is that the Palestinian girl's people genuinely are under attack, where as America mostly just pretends to be under attack for clandestine geopolitical reasons.

 Smacks wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Two guys carrying guns on a sandy plain in Afghanistan wearing combat fatiques. One is doing a combat tour in 'Ganners, the other is in the same vicinity and has signed up to kill the filthy western kuffah

Err... The difference there is mostly your own bias. What you call "doing a tour" some people might call "invading".

Two women holding guns and standing in front of flags. One believes in the US of A, Jeeesus Halleluyah!, and the right to bear arms, America..feth Yeah! The other believes that if they take out enough people in a mad attack they will get 72 virgins and a first class ticket to Mohammed's side. Allah Akhbar, feth everyone!

Again this is mostly your bias. The most crucial difference between the girls is that one of them lived in a country that was occupied by foreign invaders. Aside from that, they are both standing patriotically in front of their people's flag. They are both holding their sociogeographically determined 'holy book' (which they both believe in "madly"). They are both posing with weapons, and they both talk a lot about freedom and independence. One subtle difference is that the Palestinian girl's people genuinely are under attack, where as America mostly just pretends to be under attack for clandestine geopolitical reasons.

Thank you for that, it helps prove that you have missed the point of your own linked image and it's unfair message.
The essential difference is not between how people pose and how they dress or what they carry, its between what is going on in their heads.

While you might not like American conservative and its Bible bashing, NRA members and the way a lot of them are extra extra in your face with the stars and stripes then you are in common company with a lot of people. It's a laughable stereotype that is lived out as an ongoing parody for the world to ridicule.
But.....
they are not suicide bombers.

So long as you don't try to prise their guns from their cold hands, or shoot their dawgs, they will likely leave you more or less alone. Possibly after a diatribe about how America is the bestest nation on earth.


And if you really need the difference between a soldier doing a tour and a jihadist answering the call explained further to you then I serious recommend you remain in embarrassed silence. While the difference between the two is as you indeed say 'in my own bias' it is a concensus bias referred to as western civilisation, which is not perfect, but it broadly works and is a hell of a lot better than the alternative presented.

 Smacks wrote:
EDIT: apparently she is Reem Saleh Al-Riyashi, a member of Hamas. She killed herself in an attack on an Israeli check point. Ironic that Holly should mention Independence day while referencing a woman who actually gave her life for Palestinian independence.

And that my friends is the difference in the pictures.


One is celebrating death in an attempt to kill others, one is not.

 Orlanth wrote:
Thank you for that, it helps prove that you have missed the point of your own linked image and it's unfair message.
The essential difference is not between how people pose and how they dress or what they carry, its between what is going on in their heads.

Yeah I mentioned a lot more than just posing, read: patriotic, religion "mad", freedom, independence, that is all "idea" and not "clothing" related. So no it doesn't help you at all.

While you might not like American conservative and its Bible bashing, NRA members and the way a lot of them are extra extra in your face with the stars and stripes then you are in common company with a lot of people. It's a laughable stereotype that is lived out as an ongoing parody for the world to ridicule.
But.....
they are not suicide bombers.

They are also not an occupied people, they are sitting pretty 3000 miles away from where all their wars are taking place. Try kicking them out their homes and off their land, see if they wouldn't fight back however they could.

And if you really need the difference between a soldier doing a tour and a jihadist answering the call explained further to you then I serious recommend you remain in embarrassed silence. While the difference between the two is as you indeed say 'in my own bias' it is a concensus bias referred to as western civilisation, which is not perfect, but it broadly works and is a hell of a lot better than the alternative presented.

Well done, you've just taken a whole paragraph to restate that you are bias towards the culture that you are also from. This is like bias for dummies. The people we are fighting in places like Afghanistan are not from our culture, they don't see things the way you do, they would be bias the other way. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I don't need the difference explained to me. I already understand bias and am quite capable of grasping the motivations on both sides. You seem to just see "our boys" and "those evil savages" which is natural I guess, but also asinine.

 Smacks wrote:
They are also not an occupied people, they are sitting pretty 3000 miles away from where all their wars are taking place. Try kicking them out their homes and off their land, see if they wouldn't fight back however they could.

I very seriously doubt I would encourage my wife or daughter to strap on a suicide vest for the cause.

Of course, I also encourage my daughter to get an education and my wife has a couple master degrees.

Not all cultures are equal.

Try living in poverty, under constant threat of further eviction, for several generations, and come back to me.

The Middle East in general was on a track towards gradually liberalising and allowing women to have a greater role (one of the first Palestinian commandos who hijacked a plane was female) before the creation of Israel. The complete failure of the more secular rulers in the region to destroy Israel lead to the drift towards extremism, which continued after the US invasion of Iraq.

Suicide bombing, especially forced suicide bombing, is abhorrent. Doing what was done to the Palestinians and is still being done to the Palestinians is also abhorrent.

 CptJake wrote:
I very seriously doubt I would encourage my wife or daughter to strap on a suicide vest for the cause.

Of course, I also encourage my daughter to get an education and my wife has a couple master degrees.

Not all cultures are equal.

Well don't go feeling too superior just yet. Many Palestinians were also appalled by her suicide, and Hamas actually lost a lot of public support following her attack. Extremists are not indicative of their cultures as a whole. It is a minority that make a lot of noise and do bad stuff, such as murdering abortion clinic staff because they are "pro-life".

 Smacks wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I very seriously doubt I would encourage my wife or daughter to strap on a suicide vest for the cause.

Of course, I also encourage my daughter to get an education and my wife has a couple master degrees.

Not all cultures are equal.

Well don't go feeling to superior just yet. Many Palestinians were also appalled by her suicide, and Hamas actually lost a lot of public support following her attack. Extremists are indicative of their cultures as a whole. It is a minority that make a lot of noise and do bad stuff, such as murdering abortion clinic staff because they are "pro-life".

Hamas lost so much support they ceased to be able to operate. Or not.

Compare numbers of dead abortion clinic staffs and numbers killed in the Mumbai attack or in the last year by Boko Haram.

Clearly all these acts by fanatics are so awful that the handful of bad apples is turned on and forced to change by the vast majority.

Or not.

One only needs to know a bit about insurgencies and guerrilla war to know that there is no way there can be 20+ countries with violent Islamic movements without major support networks in place, and at least some large level of acceptance among the populations. It just is not possible. When there are comparable levels of violence and support for abortion clinic bombings and murders, let me know.

 CptJake wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I very seriously doubt I would encourage my wife or daughter to strap on a suicide vest for the cause.

Of course, I also encourage my daughter to get an education and my wife has a couple master degrees.

Not all cultures are equal.

Well don't go feeling to superior just yet. Many Palestinians were also appalled by her suicide, and Hamas actually lost a lot of public support following her attack. Extremists are indicative of their cultures as a whole. It is a minority that make a lot of noise and do bad stuff, such as murdering abortion clinic staff because they are "pro-life".

Hamas lost so much support they ceased to be able to operate. Or not.

Compare numbers of dead abortion clinic staffs and numbers killed in the Mumbai attack or in the last year by Boko Haram.

Clearly all these acts by fanatics are so awful that the handful of bad apples is turned on and forced to change by the vast majority.

Or not.

One only needs to know a bit about insurgencies and guerrilla war to know that there is no way there can be 20+ countries with violent Islamic movements without major support networks in place, and at least some large level of acceptance among the populations. It just is not possible. When there are comparable levels of violence and support for abortion clinic bombings and murders, let me know.

Hey! Who are you to get in the way of him comparing apples and oranges.

 Smacks wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
And if you really need the difference between a soldier doing a tour and a jihadist answering the call explained further to you then I serious recommend you remain in embarrassed silence. While the difference between the two is as you indeed say 'in my own bias' it is a concensus bias referred to as western civilisation, which is not perfect, but it broadly works and is a hell of a lot better than the alternative presented.

Well done, you've just taken a whole paragraph to restate that you are bias towards the culture that you are also from. This is like bias for dummies. The people we are fighting in places like Afghanistan are not from our culture, they don't see things the way you do, they would be bias the other way. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I don't need the difference explained to me. I already understand bias and am quite capable of grasping the motivations on both sides. You seem to just see "our boys" and "those evil savages" which is natural I guess, but also asinine.

I will stop you there. What I just reiterated was my awareness of my membership of the human race.

EVERYONE has a cultural bias, it comes from parenting, it comes from nationality, sexuality, gender, religious preference too - including any organised religion or atheism, place and level of education, place of work, social class, choice of lifestyle, entertainment preferences, level of attunement to modern information media, choice of partners and whether or not you own a pet or live in a rural or urban community.
And there are many other factors too, those are just a few of the major ones.
All contribute to our psyche, or awareness and our paradigm, and are the bedrock of our possible opinions on to which we add our own thoughts.

Yes I am culturally biased, you are culturally biased too. So is every single person on Dakka, the whole internet, the whole human race.

The first step to achieving any form of cultural enlightenment is to accept this as a flat fact and keep it in mind and measure yourself constantly against ones own bias.
Those who fail to grasp this simple truth are doomed to wallow in ignorance forever.

First stage of how to work on your cultural bias is to look at other perspectives. As a topical example I have very recently shown a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian cause on another thread, but not the methodology. There is no contrdiction in my sympathy for Abbas there and my condemnation of Islamic militancy here. But that isnt enough, It helps in this study to try to look at the problems as if we were Jews also, and thus see to some extent why so many Jews are afraid. I am far from alone in this, but there is a great girth between those who can see multiple perspective and those who can see but one, and it stems from self awareness, and a willingness to grasp the world problems in four dimensions rather than two. It's all the difference you need, and it starts with ourselves.

If you take away nothing else from this thread learn this:
It is the utter depth of delusion to consider oneself free from bias.
But there is no shame in admitting that the human mind has an imperfect foundation.

 djones520 wrote:

 CptJake wrote:

 Smacks wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
I very seriously doubt I would encourage my wife or daughter to strap on a suicide vest for the cause.

Of course, I also encourage my daughter to get an education and my wife has a couple master degrees.

Not all cultures are equal.

Well don't go feeling to superior just yet. Many Palestinians were also appalled by her suicide, and Hamas actually lost a lot of public support following her attack. Extremists are indicative of their cultures as a whole. It is a minority that make a lot of noise and do bad stuff, such as murdering abortion clinic staff because they are "pro-life".

Hamas lost so much support they ceased to be able to operate. Or not.

Compare numbers of dead abortion clinic staffs and numbers killed in the Mumbai attack or in the last year by Boko Haram.

Clearly all these acts by fanatics are so awful that the handful of bad apples is turned on and forced to change by the vast majority.

Or not.

One only needs to know a bit about insurgencies and guerrilla war to know that there is no way there can be 20+ countries with violent Islamic movements without major support networks in place, and at least some large level of acceptance among the populations. It just is not possible. When there are comparable levels of violence and support for abortion clinic bombings and murders, let me know.

Hey! Who are you to get in the way of him comparing apples and oranges.

I know the the Insurgents are a Multi International Force

 Da Boss wrote:
Try living in poverty, under constant threat of further eviction, for several generations, and come back to me.

The Middle East in general was on a track towards gradually liberalising and allowing women to have a greater role (one of the first Palestinian commandos who hijacked a plane was female) before the creation of Israel. The complete failure of the more secular rulers in the region to destroy Israel lead to the drift towards extremism, which continued after the US invasion of Iraq.

Suicide bombing, especially forced suicide bombing, is abhorrent. Doing what was done to the Palestinians and is still being done to the Palestinians is also abhorrent.

So you're blaming Israel for the fact that Muslims treat women like gak?

Wow, now I've heard it all.

That "move toward extremism" had very little to do with Israel, and a lot more to do with the corruption of secular Arab leaders, who were trying to rule over populations with which they were religiously incompatible (Saddam was a Sunni and Iraq is 2/3 Shia, Assad is a Shiite and Syria is 2/3 Sunni).

 whembly wrote:
Thanks.... was it always this bad?

Because I stayed in Paris for over two weeks about 11 years ago and visited Versailles / surrounding country sides.
19th and 20th arrondissement are not unsafe, but I wouldn't go there if I were a tourist.

However, you can experience there what's remaining of the Paris populaire. It can be a very interesting experience, but not exactly the most romantic one: people usually don't associate Paris with poverty. It's pretty much like the Catacombs: it can be a unique experience, but it's not the kind of thing you want to do on your own... Moreover tourists usually don't travel to Paris with their loved one to put a headlamp on and say "hey, honey, let's visit the sew... I mean, catacombs, hope you don't mind the rat...errr... skulls".

 whembly wrote:
Had a fething blast in those towns.

Versailles and the surrounding are very, very fine places.

There's one place you want to avoid, but we're only talking about a couple blocks. You may well go to the city of Trappes and never notice what I'm talking about. Unless you're very unlucky (or have to live/work there), you won't end up in this kind of place.

There are indeed a couple dozens places that really, really suck, but each one of them, while usually quite densely populated, is only a few blocks wide, and all they're scattered across a 4500+ square miles urban aera. You may never notice them, but they still exist.

You may remember the 2005 riots. They may look widespread, but it's actually only a couple blocks here and there. Since these people seldom move from their "territory", you may live very close to these place and never notice anything unusual (unless you turn the TV on). Yup, people can be that stupid and burn down their own blocks, their own schools, their own cars...

In a related note, Anonymous stated that it will be mining and posting Islamic Terrorists' personal information in response to the CH attacks.

It would be a real...real shame if something bad happened to those terrorists.