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Hello everyone,

"3-d printing is the future," etc. I'm not very happy about that.

Why not?

1. They're too fragile.

This is the main thing for me: I hate the fragility of resin printed miniatures. It makes me feel like I'm paying good money for something guaranteed to break, and it makes the entire miniatures hobby endeavor feel much more precious and precarious than I'm comfortable with. If knocking a miniature off the table is certain to shatter it beyond repair, why should I invest time and effort into cleaning, assembling, and painting it? I might feel differently if 3-D printing metal or HIPS equivalent plastic became safe and affordable for the average person, but there's no sign of that happening.

2. STL / 3-D printing is fool's gold for companies.

It may be easier / more cost-effective than casting in other mediums, but when home users can get exactly the same results themselves, why should they bother buying expensive 3-d printed physical models from you? Why, for that matter, should they buy your STL files, when there are a multitude of other similar files to choose from which are just as good, if not significantly better, than what you're providing? And when A.I. bullshasta gets sophisticated enough to start designing 3-D models, which I have no doubt it will, customers will be paying subscription fees to that A.I. service rather than paying human digital sculptors or the companies that hire them.

Consumer: "I'd like 100 different multi-part rat men sculpted in Jes Goodwin's style circa 1980 to choose from, please."

A.I.: "Here you go."

Consumer: "OK, now show them to me painted in the style of John Blanche."

A.I. "Done."

Consumer: "OK, now print out the bits to make #6, 25, 33, 44."

A.I. "Yes, master."

Consumer: "Now send royalties to all the human artists you ripped off to make these miniatures. Just kidding, ha ha ha."

A.I.: "Ha ha, screw human artists, sir. Time to pay Microconglomerate your monthly $40 A.I. design subscription fee."

I understand and empathize that trying to make a living selling miniatures is very hard. I just think that for private companies, 3-D printing / STL is a short-term solution that ultimately won't sustain them, as the low entry cost of distributing files rather than physical miniatures will result in levels of competition that the field has never seen before. Imagine, for a moment, that GW stopped making physical product altogether and just distributed its catalogue as STL files. With all the high quality GW-alike STLs already available, would anyone even notice?

3. I hate sifting through posts about 3-D prints / STL files trying to find news about physical products.

The other annoying thing about 3-D printing is its ubiquity. It's become a real chore to try and find news about physical, non-3-D printed miniatures now that I have to sort through a bunch of STL / printed stuff. Kickstarter and Tabletop fix, for example, have become clogged with news of STL / printed this and that.

4. I never buy 3-D prints or STL files.

I regret that rising production costs are putting a squeeze on manufacturers and encouraging them to go the STL / 3-D printed route, but no matter how much I may like a given company or property, I don't and won't buy STLs or 3-D prints from anyone.

Granted, I am just one crusty old person. And while I am immune to "3-D printing dominance is inevitable, you fool!" schadenfreude thanks to my pile of opportunity (i.e., the entire miniatures industry could cease to exist tomorrow and I'd still have more miniatures than I could paint before I die,) I actually do respect that other reasonable people may love 3-D printing / STLs, and they're welcome to say so.

I'm just annoyed by it all, and felt like ranting. Call it early onset dementia, if it makes you feel better. To end on a positive note, companies staying in the non-resin physical business of miniature making continue to have my thanks and support.

On durability the resin choice has a huge impact here and there's steadily a push in that market toward better resins. You've even got things like Atlas3DSS Hercules resin with thermal curing which can be very durable.


For me 3D printing opened up options for owning models that, if cast and sold as models (no matter the production method) would be hard for me to justify the purchase of alone if they weren't wargame models for a game I'm playing.

I think it can replace resin casting and metal casting as the gateway production method for firms starting out; however firms that scale up to larger and larger production might well end up still shifting back toward plastics as production for them scales up for mass production a LOT better than 3D printing.

Another thing to consider is that plastic is getting easier to get into; its still expensive but there's a good few more firms doing it today than 10 or 20 years ago where it was basically GW alone and a few other firms doing it here and there.



Personally I think we are still a long way from 3D printing dominance. Physical markets are still way larger than 3D print ones; resin for 3D printing is still nasty stuff to work with requiring proper PPE and a dedicated space for it along with skill sets (its a long way from plug-and-play simple).



I totally get your argument, but I'm very into 3d printing. Yet I still buy metal and plastic and regular resin models. I like not having layer lines on curves to clean; support marks (they are trickier than mould lines in some ways). Things like GW plastic are still a joy to work with model wise when it comes to cleaning and assembly.

Sure there's a LOT of 3D printing going on and its very much here to stay and going to keep evolving and changing the market; but I don't think its a bad thing. Esp considering that hte big reason firms have shifted to it from other mediums has purely been those other mediums becoming too expensive for them to operate with. If the choice is firms shutting down or not getting off the ground to start with - then I'd take 3D printing every dya to keep that growth in the market.

 Talking Banana wrote:

2. STL / 3-D printing is fool's gold for companies.

It may be easier / more cost-effective than casting in other mediums, but when home users can get exactly the same results themselves, why should they bother buying expensive 3-d printed physical models from you? Why, for that matter, should they buy your STL files, when there are a multitude of other similar files to choose from which are just as good, if not significantly better, than what you're providing?

It's a tricky situation, and one made worse by the influx of hobbyist sculptor patreons over the last few years devaluing digital miniatures by offering more miniatures than people can print for a ridiculously low outlay... but this actually goes the other way, IMO. While miniatures companies with actual overheads generally can't compete on price with hobbyist sculptors producing untested STLs in their spare time, some people will always choose to support the company that makes the thing they like even if there are cheaper options elsewhere (and as a miniatures producer, that's always really, really appreciated!) But as the market for STLs continues to grow, if a company doesn't offer a digital option then customers looking for STLs have no option but to go elsewhere.

Digital models will eventually replace physical production, but (IMO) it's not going to happen on any sort of scale until we get a generation of printers that either produce HIPS models with resin-printer quality, or resin printers that don't require the user to ever handle wet resin. But in the meantime, it's becoming increasingly necessary for miniature producers to offer that digital option in the interests of customer retention.

 Talking Banana wrote:


2. STL / 3-D printing is fool's gold for companies.

It may be easier / more cost-effective than casting in other mediums, but when home users can get exactly the same results themselves, why should they bother buying expensive 3-d printed physical models from you? Why, for that matter, should they buy your STL files, when there are a multitude of other similar files to choose from which are just as good, if not significantly better, than what you're providing?

My main answer to this question is exactly the same as it is concerning why I already buy one companies physical minis vs another companies. I like the actual mini being offered.

 Talking Banana wrote:

I understand and empathize that trying to make a living selling miniatures is very hard. I just think that for private companies, 3-D printing / STL is a short-term solution that ultimately won't sustain them, as the low entry cost of distributing files rather than physical miniatures will result in levels of competition that the field has never seen before. Imagine, for a moment, that GW stopped making physical product altogether and just distributed its catalogue as STL files. With all the high quality GW-alike STLs already available, would anyone even notice?

I'd notice if the specific model I wanted was a GW model.

 insaniak wrote:
But as the market for STLs continues to grow, if a company doesn't offer a digital option then customers looking for STLs have no option but to go elsewhere.

Digital models will eventually replace physical production, but (IMO) it's not going to happen on any sort of scale until we get a generation of printers that either produce HIPS models with resin-printer quality, or resin printers that don't require the user to ever handle wet resin. But in the meantime, it's becoming increasingly necessary for miniature producers to offer that digital option in the interests of customer retention.

Honestly whilst the 3D print market grew very rapidly over the Pandemic its still a niche of the wargame market.

Plus I can see it being like breadmakers. Yes you CAN make it at home and cheaper than from the shop and to your specific tastes - but do you REALLY want too when you can go to the shop and buy ready-made*? For firms that have a big enough market to invest in physical production I think the Physical market will remain a very strong earner for a good long while yet. Indeed that's where 3D print firms are heading into - taking over their own production and supply of physical models to the market.

As you say 3D printing needs a lot of development and some key developments to be safer, easier and problem free before its going to break into a big enough chunk of the general market



*you could also argue this for preassembled and prepainted and I can see 3D printing pushing for less and less assembly, but I think GW and other firms put enough into hobby marketing to make hobbying part of it. Plus prepainted is still a big cost increase if its done to any good level of quality. 3D printing can do colour printing, but it requires very expensive machines

If GW went digital I'd stop buying. I don't WANT 3d printing in my home (safety, faff, etc). I'm happy to pay a reasonable amount (yeah, I know) for a product that pleases me.

Adding to the minor rant, why do so many STL producers NOT show a printed product (and even better a painted one). The STL image gives me no idea of finished quality (and layer lines)

One thing I do appreciate in 3D-printing is the option of getting parts/upgrade sets for obscure vehicle variants that are likely not feasible to produce on large scale, but work as .stl files to buy or that you can even create yourself and print/use a printing service. I used that a lot to build Sentinel/Chimera variants, get Lasguns that look slightly different, modify heavy weapons for heavy weapons teams as the usual look to clumsy for me etc. All stuff where the market is likely to small and the customer wishes to diverse to justify the effort for a big company.

stroller wrote:

Adding to the minor rant, why do so many STL producers show a printed product (and even better a painted one). The STL image gives me no idea of finished quality (and layer lines)

I assume you mean "why don't they" and the answer is simple - Patreon.

The 3D print market, by and large, grew on the Patreon monthly model of sales. Release a bunch of models every month. The problem is when you combine that with the insanely fast race to the bottom of value of the STL that also happened you end up with creators providing a LOT of models each month; which often means they hardly get time to printest them (if at all for some) before they have to start working on next month's models. Attempts to get a month-ahead for breathing room is tricky when most teams are small; often scattered geographically and might be a lot of part-time workers.

Larger groups have more options though even then shifting everything a month ahead or two months ahead is tricky if you're already locked into a system.

I have seen the numbers of models going down and I don't see the STL devaluing any more; it might even increase a bit. But in general its a symptom of situation.

I do agree with you that printed is best to see and showcase a model. STL renders are indeed devoid of a sense of scale about them which you get from a real world print photo

You assume correctly. Finger slipped. Thank you for the Patreon insight - that too has largely passed me by.

They're too fragile.

This.

And impossible to cut and work with. That's why for me it is plastic all the way.

hard to disagree with any of this, a lot is subjective, there are different resins but even then its a faff picking the right one

the patreon stuff is spot on, even if you have a printer going 24/7 you will struggle to keep up, and then what on earth do you do with it?

I have bought some stuff, not a subscription but individual models I want, and need to be careful as some that look nice don't print well when you try them

I’m in two minds.

The positive? For small, garage sized companies they’re a god send. Not only a way to make and send out samples for about as cheap as possible, but as it involves making the STL, that’s the product they’re selling.

This is only a good thing, as variety is good, and it can help those with the necessary skills and talents get into the industry, and potentially expand their horizons.

And it’s a hobby entirely unto itself, with a particular appeal to those who predominantly enjoy the painting. For relatively little monthly costs, your initial investment can not only provide you with lots of interesting things to paint, but you can do so with the Warm And Fuzzy feeling of knowing your directly supporting an artist.

The negative? I don’t stand with piracy or knock-offs. And there’s a fair amount of that going on. Not gonna go much further there as why I don’t stand with it is….pretty much irrelevant.

And like all things, it has those weirdos who make it Their Entire Personality. I mean, to each their own, but man they can be crashing bores.

Models don't have to be resin. I've been rocking a decent quality FDM printer for a while now and it does a good job with models and they are much more durable than resin. I print at REALLY fine layers so it takes a while, but it's cheaper than resin, no vapors, and setup is a breeze. Yeah, printing a whole Imperator Titan in 40 k scale took almost 50 days and $100, but it was worth it.

FDM works best with larger models, but I have near perfect Centurion stand-ins. This work really well if you have a bits box to raid. An FDM body with GW plastic arms, head, and weapons is a good mix.

3D printing is interesting technology, but I dont like the chemical waste aspect of it at all. Also, there's still too much faffing about required for a decent print. Perhaps one day the tech will mature to a point where the printers will require zero calibration/maintenance, AI will automatically slice/support anything you want to print perfectly with no human interaction required, and the process will require no messing about with chemical wastes.. until that day comes, my Bob Naismith created STLs will remain in my personal archives, unprinted..

SU-152 wrote:

They're too fragile.

This.

And impossible to cut and work with. That's why for me it is plastic all the way.

This, again, comes down to the resin being used. Some are certainly harder and more brittle than others, but there are also printing resins with a similar profile to ABS or softer plastics that are fairly easy to work with and much less brittle.

 Overread wrote:

The 3D print market, by and large, grew on the Patreon monthly model of sales. Release a bunch of models every month. The problem is when you combine that with the insanely fast race to the bottom of value of the STL that also happened you end up with creators providing a LOT of models each month; which often means they hardly get time to printest them (if at all for some) before they have to start working on next month's models. Attempts to get a month-ahead for breathing room is tricky when most teams are small; often scattered geographically and might be a lot of part-time workers.

All of this... but also worth mentioning that some resins photograph really badly. Even aside from the actually transparent resins, a lot of tinted resins are slightly translucent under lights, which makes details look less defined and thin parts wash out or disappear against the background. And if sculptors aren't taking the time to even print test their models, they're certainly not going to be invest the time and money into getting them all painted for photographs.

I do agree though that having pics of actual, physical models is vastly preferable, if only to prove that they're actually printable. I try to cover all the bases with MEdge minis - renders to clearly show the parts, printed samples and painted samples.

Great discussion thread.

I've gotten into resin 3d printing this year and I enjoy it and am irritated with it. I like all the options, but am overwhelmed by all the options. Pre-supported files tend to be over-supported in my experience and can lead to broken models and wasted resin. My preferred scale is 90s GW heroic-28mm, so I have to experiment and do trial and error testing to get prints to be the size I like. It can also be difficult to find models that fit my preferred retro aesthetic.

In my view any modifications should be done before you print the thing. There are so many options for free and relatively simple stl manipulation software that all of the options in files will give you pretty much any shape you want. I find virtual kitbashing just as much fun as physical

Also in Terms of layer lines, they are entirely a function of the printer, print orientation, settings and resin, so I’m not sure how useful that aspect of seeing a physical model would be. Detail size and overall quality, Definately. Amd all they would need to do is give them a quick spray of primer and a wash to make them easy to photo.

stroller wrote:
Adding to the minor rant, why do so many STL producers NOT show a printed product (and even better a painted one). The STL image gives me no idea of finished quality (and layer lines)

Layer lines and the end result are almost entirely down to the printer and materials (and settings) being used.

A high quality resin print in the picture will never look like a model you printed in FDM. If the pictures were of a few of the same model side-by-side, you could compare your most similar type to the others, and buy (or not) based on those. Not many model designers will go to that much trouble.
Look to the older, more established, creators for that level of service.
https://www.fatdragongames.com/fdgfiles/ and others will show user-level models, to show what to expect. They help with settings too, to get good quality results.

 insaniak wrote:

SU-152 wrote:

They're too fragile.

This.

And impossible to cut and work with. That's why for me it is plastic all the way.

This, again, comes down to the resin being used. Some are certainly harder and more brittle than others, but there are also printing resins with a similar profile to ABS or softer plastics that are fairly easy to work with and much less brittle.

 Overread wrote:

The 3D print market, by and large, grew on the Patreon monthly model of sales. Release a bunch of models every month. The problem is when you combine that with the insanely fast race to the bottom of value of the STL that also happened you end up with creators providing a LOT of models each month; which often means they hardly get time to printest them (if at all for some) before they have to start working on next month's models. Attempts to get a month-ahead for breathing room is tricky when most teams are small; often scattered geographically and might be a lot of part-time workers.

All of this... but also worth mentioning that some resins photograph really badly. Even aside from the actually transparent resins, a lot of tinted resins are slightly translucent under lights, which makes details look less defined and thin parts wash out or disappear against the background. And if sculptors aren't taking the time to even print test their models, they're certainly not going to be invest the time and money into getting them all painted for photographs.

I do agree though that having pics of actual, physical models is vastly preferable, if only to prove that they're actually printable. I try to cover all the bases with MEdge minis - renders to clearly show the parts, printed samples and painted samples.

not hard to run a test print then stick a prime & wash over it though, even a mid tone flat grey.

becomes a way to stand out from the crowd, actually show printed pics, indeed ideally not fully painted. a prime & wash shows the printed details properly

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The negative? I don’t stand with piracy or knock-offs. And there’s a fair amount of that going on. Not gonna go much further there as why I don’t stand with it is….pretty much irrelevant.

And like all things, it has those weirdos who make it Their Entire Personality. I mean, to each their own, but man they can be crashing bores.

I agree with both of these. I've avoided getting a printer for a long time, but finally got an FDM one when I released it was cheaper than a box of GW terrain! So far all I've printed is cars & buildings for Marvel: Crisis Protocol.

I sculpt, but take no part in the patreon rat race towards the lowest possible quality of mini sculpted on to the same default posable humanoid template.

Basically, it's currently a case of download commercial use human template, pose it, duplicate it, use that as a base to sculpt cloth on top, find a ccmmercial use weapon pack online, use that in the sculpt. I know which ones are used at this point to identify the stock components, and the main giveaway is the faces having the same default look and the miniatures being truescale rather than heroic scale.

A large issue with a certain % of sculptors is that they don't game themselves, paint or even print their stuff, a lot are coming from a background of developing game assets so the connection between the miniatures and the games they might be used for is often tenuous or poorly researched.

One of the main things I got praise for when designing blood bowl pitches was that I'd made the pitches flat enough for minis to be able to stand on, whereas a technically much better sculptor's designs had tentacles bursting out of the ground and other raised detail creating squares where miniatures either couldn't be placed or would be unstable.

There's a definite disconnect between the gaming scene and the miniatures scene with 3D printing and that might be another cause of frustration, seeing a bunch of stuff that there isn't an immediate use for in any popular game, or doesn't quite work in practical terms or match the theme, the marketing is also quite tiring since it's often very poorly targeted, and don't get me started on the scam artists offering to design custom sculpts which plague facebook groups.

That's just the negatives though, overall it's a massive positive, especially for terrain since FDM isn't as toxic and the commercially available range of terrain for wargames is still quite poor outside of very stylized and specific GW pieces. I'm interested in using it as a basis to create a miniatures game, a long term goal of mine, if the rules can be pdf and everything else printable that's a big opportunity there.

Overdetailing is an issue not just at the sculptor end but also the customer end too. Lots of detail looks awesome in a render blown up to the size of your computer screen.

It very much does market and sell itself really well and that leads to people buying and encouraging overdetailing. Even if when they actually print and play with the model they find its "too much".

Details on characters that are impossible to paint, bases that have no actual space to glue the character to the base etc...

It's a maturity of market thing for both the creators and the customers at the same time; which is why the learning curve can be slower as people keep demanding those high detail models.

Crusty old man zone indeed

Printing is another tool to get more better toy soldiers. And you don't have to "cut" resin if you do the conversions before printing. I'm designing a wild west house right now, it's not any less valid than carving one out of foamcore. But hey, I remember when airbrushing and dipping/washing were considered "cheating" by crusty old men

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

The negative? I don’t stand with piracy or knock-offs. And there’s a fair amount of that going on. Not gonna go much further there as why I don’t stand with it is….pretty much irrelevant.

And I bet Hasslefree pays royalties for this gak

Ruh-roh!

Some 3D printing isn't an issue to me, but I have to admit that it is annoying that places like Kickstarter just get flooded with 3D printing STL projects that just use it for some more exposure. That's why I've mostly given up on browsing there because it's just too much for me as someone who doesn't have a printer and doesn't want to get one.

I do have a couple of 3D printed minis but they fortunately are pretty simple affairs that don't have much in the way of parts that easily break. That said, I see a ton of STLs online that are far, far too detailed for me. I like the detail to be economical and digital sculpting, I feel, often makes it too easy to just drown a model into little bits and pieces that make it a pain to work with.

I don't do 3D printed because for me the point of this hobby is to work with my hands and not be looking at a screen. I also don't really like the chemical aspect, I live in a small flat and I don't have space for it and wouldn't want to dedicate space to it.

I'd rather carve things out of foam core because of the physical aspect to it, I think I just get more out of it.

Similarly, I'm getting a bit into sculpting by hand and doing more kitbashes for stuff I want, or scratch building. And I find it more satisfying.

That said, the 3D printing stuff doesn't bother me at all. It's easy to ignore it, I tend to assume that most of the small companies are 3D prints and I just scroll past. If I am following a hobbyist on youtube for example and they move into more 3D printing, I just stop watching without rancor. It's just a different hobby focus to what I have and that's fine. I also don't care too much for the hyper detailed painting you see a lot nowadays because of high quality macro photography. I don't play the most popular games. I don't like the increasing scale of modern minis. And so there's lots of stuff in the hobby that I increasingly ignore to focus on the stuff I like. There's no point in getting angry about it- just focus on the stuff that makes you happy and ignore the rest.

As to the companies, I think we won't have a collapse that soon, but maybe eventually. If it happens, I'll be sad, but I'll just have to work with what I have from then on, or accept the parts of 3D printing I don't like.

It has a place IMO but as a way to get things that are add-ons rather than the full article.

For example, there's no Mantis Warrior shoulder pads that I can get from GW when I did my small army so a friend printer me a pile.

Maybe it's just because I tend to do a lot of converting and kitbashing but seeing a 3d printed army across the table just disappoints me. Might just also be that the fully 3d armies I have played against were all very poorly painted as well so the whole experience was just "oh you've made like 0 effort here".

Bitz are definitely fair game.

For instance, currently assembling Mechanicum toys intended to be fielded in my Dark Angels Heresy army, via the relevant Legion Consuls.

Now, the off the peg kits have a decent selection of toys for me to play with. But they’re not completely complete in terms of suite of options. And so there’s room for a crafty STL designer to offer 3rd Party Toys.

But what I’d really be interested in? Legion Specific Thallaxi Bonces. I’ve no issue with the standard ones. Indeed I’m a fan of that blank visage. But if someone designed ones with design cues from Legion iconography? I could easily be persuaded - it would just mean asking my mate if he could rattle them off for me, and the same would go for say, 3D Legion icons designed to fit on MkVI or MkIII shoulder pads, or on Thallax and Castellax etc.

Sure on the latter I could use transfers, but the GW ones are bloody expensive for the number I need. Regard.



£23 a sheet. And I need the white Legion icon. 160 of the them. But each sheet only gives me 40 of any one design. That’s nearly £100 just on transfers. Which whilst doable by my pocket, feels extravagant. Oh, and I’d need more if I wanted Squad Markings.

So if can find practical 3d bosses for shoulder pads? That would be a solution.

 Gert wrote:
It has a place IMO but as a way to get things that are add-ons rather than the full article.

For example, there's no Mantis Warrior shoulder pads that I can get from GW when I did my small army so a friend printer me a pile.

Maybe it's just because I tend to do a lot of converting and kitbashing but seeing a 3d printed army across the table just disappoints me. Might just also be that the fully 3d armies I have played against were all very poorly painted as well so the whole experience was just "oh you've made like 0 effort here".

For me its very much the originality.

If its just an outright copy of GW models - no interest. I don't even aim to buy nor look for those myself.
Upgrade parts on GW models are totally fine - if you've got some unique weapons or shoulderpads or such then that's awesome.
If its original designs then that's awesome as its just adding more creativity to the table (though I agree if they are really poorly printed its not as much fun).


There's also a huge grey wobbly area between original designs and gw model copies; which I'm not even going to try and classify in any depth save to say that the more toward originally the better in my view.

To explore the grey area? And by no means is this meant to be definitive, as it is of course just my own opinion and line in the sand…

Shoulder Pads and Heads? Not terribly fussed if you started with a GW piece, added bits and bobs of decoration. It is strictly speaking a bit naughty I suppose, as it’s by no means All Me Own Work Guv. But as long as the end piece isn’t something GW offer? I’m good with it.

If you’ve made a similar scale alternative to say, a Deimos Predator, and done so from scratch barring the underlying design inspiration? Fair enough. I’d probably still stick to GW’s stuff, but I can still happily respect your creative input.

But, if you’ve made an STL of an existing kit? You’re just a slightly lazier recaster. You’ve brought nothing creative to the table at all, and are just a leech. The sole reason you’ve done that, and sold the STL? Is to profit from the efforts of others. Away in the bin with you (but note whilst I still find it distasteful, I’m less vehement if you’ve produced the STL solely for your own use, as at least sheer greed isn’t part of the equation)

I’m also a bit iffy with people using GW artwork to produce STL/3rd Party Kits, where GW haven’t produced a kit of their own. I think it is considerably more defensible than “I just copied their kit, gizza fiver”, but I still think it’s creatively a bit lazy. Not sufficiently to be a Richard about it, call you names and cast aspersions, but I would be silently tutting in your general direction.