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Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





I'm not a big skaven guy, but I dont see the "old school GW skavens" similarities. When I hear "old school GW skavens" I think more of the old monkey-rat look, Mantic seems to be going for more of a buff look, like some ratmen/orc hybrid
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

comparing similar units:

[Thumb - Unbenannt3.png]

[Thumb - Unbenannt.png]

[Thumb - Unbenannt4.png]

[Thumb - van-ratkin-warband.png]

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/14 15:55:10


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





dyndraig wrote:
I'm not a big skaven guy, but I dont see the "old school GW skavens" similarities. When I hear "old school GW skavens" I think more of the old monkey-rat look, Mantic seems to be going for more of a buff look, like some ratmen/orc hybrid


Yes, a bit buffer - like "gorilla-rat" look.

Old school skavens tended to be a bit "buff" as well. Kodos showed the rat-ogre, they're from that old school skaven sculpt to the opposite of the warlord and clanrats who were remade in that thinner, skinner version.

Here are the old plastics :



You can clearly see the difference with the last version of GW clanrats. And to me, the old version is more similar to Mantic's own version of "not skavens".


I admit it fits more their '"cartoonish design" overall for the KoW line. Even their naval game is a bit cartoonish as well in the ship design, in the end. Like old Man-O-War.


Edit : to be honest, they look more like storm vermins in general. Maybe because they're buffer.




Edit 2 : I just noticed the tails of at least one of the lower body parts of the basic troops are wrapped around their right leg. It's very weird looking, but given how they fill the space on their base and given KoW's necessity to put the miniatures in close formation (since they're obviously intended to be used as well in KoW's regimental wargame), they don't have many other choices to avoid frustrating moments with miniatures not fitting on a regiment base because their tails are in the way of the others.

Even though, it doesn't look good.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/01/14 16:20:34


 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Glorious Nation of U.S.S.A!

 kodos wrote:
comparing similar units:





Is that the new Mantic or old GW? Is there some sort of UK pandemic restriction against gap filling in Nottingham? Or is that just against company policy? Wow.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/14 16:45:16


 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Current GW, apparently...

It's not the best professional photos I've seen. Then again, I've seen a lot worse.
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

I have taken the pictures from the shop (how dare I)
but those are the cheaper ones as you get 2 Ogres (+3 Packmaster & 6 Rats) for 32€, while the Stormfiends are 55 for 3 (and they are way more over the top)

Overall I like the Mantic Raktin more than the GW Skaves

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Glorious Nation of U.S.S.A!

 Compel wrote:
Current GW, apparently...

It's not the best professional photos I've seen. Then again, I've seen a lot worse.


That's pumbagore level sculpting there. It looks like a 15 year old plastic kit from the layout and design. Even the typical GW copyright and year is missing from either sprue (unless I'm just missing it somehow). They've done a bang up job with primaris kits (the only "new" kits I've had any familiarity with in the past three or four years) though.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/14 17:16:25


 
   
Made in us
Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle






Oh yeah, the rat ogres are right up next to the razorgor in terms of absolute worst models GW sells. Even Mantic has no problems beating THAT by a large margin.
   
Made in us
Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

I was recently stunned to find out GW is still stocking that tired, horrible rat ogre kit as opposed to finally putting out a proper updated one, or just recutting the sprue for the (also quite old but at least nice looking) IOB pair of ogres. Besides being hideous sculpts, the gaps on that RO kit were astoundingly bad to work with (and honestly GW has had a number of horrendous gaps and mold-cutting decisions over the years - the number of kits I've walked away from because you have to join and fill two halves of a thing's face is not insignificant!)

Anyway, I'm a fan of the Mantic rats, happy to see another fleshed out rat-person line (at least partially in HIPS) in general, it's not a well represented theme when it comes to army-scale wargaming needs. Mantic's sculpts run the gamut from 'yuck they reused the gobbo fleabag?' to 'that's genuinely nice and I would buy from my LGS once Mantic gets its US stockist in order.' I'm also happy to see Ratkin that aren't just Vermyn rehashes - here's hoping we see a 'rat ogre' unit in line with the hero, that isn't a sendup of the nightmare kit, as seen here.

EDIT: Re: the tails wrapped around legs, it's obvious why they did it and I would rather have tails existing but not being horribly in the way, even if they look rather like dongs in that production photo , than have no tails or bits that break off all the time (hi I've played Skaven for 20+ years)

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/14 18:10:32


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







There was a time when that rat ogre was the best plastic ogre-sized infantry kit in the world.

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Made in us
Exalted Beastlord




 lord_blackfang wrote:
There was a time when that rat ogre was the best plastic ogre-sized infantry kit in the world.


There was not. It wasn't _as bad_ in comparison, but it wasn't the first ogre-sized plastic kit, nor was it ever the best.

Even at the time it was a noticeable step down from the metal rat ogres, to the point that many skaven players didn't bother buying the new plastics.

Efficiency is the highest virtue. 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Voss wrote:
 lord_blackfang wrote:
There was a time when that rat ogre was the best plastic ogre-sized infantry kit in the world.


There was not. It wasn't _as bad_ in comparison, but it wasn't the first ogre-sized plastic kit, nor was it ever the best.

Even at the time it was a noticeable step down from the metal rat ogres, to the point that many skaven players didn't bother buying the new plastics.


"Wasn't as bad"



Uhuh.

It was the time of cartoonish monstruous infantries. The most relevant point when the plastic rat ogre kit was released the first time is that it was plastic.

And honestly, if you look closely at the equivalent of "not rat ogres" from Mantic...they do have the same big hands and cartoony head as well. They're just covered with more armors and hold weapons.

And yeah, a lot of the current GW skaven line is old. Some are VERY old. Shame and all, but well, what can you say. It's certainly not Mantic Games that will throw the stone first (they still sell these old ugly elves and plastic dwarves, after all).

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2021/01/15 00:34:17


 
   
Made in ca
Grumpy Longbeard





Canada

Sarouan wrote:
And yeah, a lot of the current GW skaven line is old. Some are VERY old. Shame and all, but well, what can you say. It's certainly not Mantic Games that will throw the stone first (they still sell these old ugly elves and plastic dwarves, after all).

*Awkwardly looks at all Mantic dwarf army I finished painting recently*
*Awkwardly considers the irony in someone with a dwarf army asking why someone else is being defensive*
*grumbles "they do the job just fine and they're affordable" softly into beard*

Nightstalkers
Dwarfs

GASLANDS!  
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

*looks at the Mantic Elves on the table*
*looks what GW has to offer*

nah, I stick with the Mantic ones for an R&F game
specially not for the price

staying with the Rat-Ogres, Mantic ones cost 18€ for 4
they are PVC, have limited weapon options but free poseable arms

GW ones are 32€ for 2
plastic, limited options and free poseable bodies and arms

or the Stormfiends, 55€ for 3
plastic, many options, monopose

going with the Mantic ones and in addition with a Box of Ogre Warriors to get more weapon options and I am still cheaper than GW and have enough fantasy bits for 12 models

another important thing here is that you get a line with constant/similar design

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





The newer Mantic Elves - the ones from League of Infamy - are leagues beyond their current range. I mean:

Spoiler:




The currently best plastic Elf infantry are probably Oathmark's, if you're more one for Low Fantasy.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Esmer wrote:
The newer Mantic Elves - the ones from League of Infamy - are leagues beyond their current range. I mean:


Yeah, but you know, that's not the point - especially when defenders of Mantic Games criticize GW for selling old stuff they don't like but when it's Mantic Games old stuff, it's fine.

And I get Kodos doesn't like GW and would rather stay with Mantic Games, it's fine...as for myself, I don't feel the need to defend Mantic Games at all costs, and I would certainlny not make an army of their old elves just because they're cheap. From my point of view, buying poor looking miniatures even at a bargain still doesn't hide the fact it's poor looking miniatures you're buying, no matter the company.


Besides, their regular drakon riding elves are...well...cartoony looking. The mounts in particular really look like cheap toys from a toystore...but it's still consistent with the KoW general design for their (very thin) elves, indeed.

It's funny to see the difference with the drakon lord. You can clearly see he's coming from a different set (the League board game), the mount is designed completely differently - dynamism included.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/15 10:27:17


 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

I don't like the Mantic Elves because they are cheap, this is just a bonus

by the time they were released, Warhammer models had hands bigger than their heads and the other alternative were monopose Lord of the Rings minis

Spoiler:


the slender non-human design and the possibility to build a Phalanx made them attractive for me unlike the "humans with pointy ears/helmets" from GW were the main problem is the same as with the Skaven and most of the ranges, different units have very different design and quality and are 20 years appart while building an R&F army with just the newer models is nearly impossible or gets very expensive (there is a reason why Island of Blood Elves are still sold for high prices although those are low quality core box models)

I was sold on the Elves after I saw that picture and GW does not offer something similar
Spoiler:



Empire Knights uses horses that are 30 years old and look very different than the newer ones
Khemri core infantry had the same problem (and why people did not want to start that army, because of the 20 year old sub-standard must use core units)

Mantic Elves are old and dated, as most kits of the same age, but while it is the most controversal range, Mantic once said that it was also their best selling KoW range prior 3rd Edition (and Mantic is aware that a consitant design is a big selling point and was one of the reasons why there was no update with some new kits)


Mantic made a big step foward in the last years and there is a big improvement between the old Hero on Drakon and the new one but the design is similar
Spoiler:



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/15 11:26:21


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Sarouan wrote:


Besides, their regular drakon riding elves are...well...cartoony looking. The mounts in particular really look like cheap toys from a toystore...but it's still consistent with the KoW general design for their (very thin) elves, indeed.

It's funny to see the difference with the drakon lord. You can clearly see he's coming from a different set (the League board game), the mount is designed completely differently - dynamism included.


The old Drakon riders look like utter crap while the newer ones look great is my point.

I expect Mantic to re-do their entire Elf range in the new style in the next 2-4 years.

EDIT:

Apparently, Mantic Drakons are capable of magically growing a second set of limbs and losing it again. The Drakons should either all have 4 or six limbs.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/15 11:24:12


 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





 kodos wrote:
I don't like the Mantic Elves because they are cheap, this is just a bonus

by the time they were released, Warhammer models had hands bigger than their heads and the other alternative were monopose Lord of the Rings minis


I'd prefer the GW big hands to the pin-sized armored waist of old plastic Mantic elves. That's what bother me the most with their range : if you want to have realistic proportions, you don't make an impossible thin waist.

I find it funny that you criticize GW on their hands but you're fine with Mantic elven waists. They're both the same problem: unrealistic proportions.

TBH that problem with proportions still happen for new releases, just not as bad as for elves. The new Mantic ratskins are for sure very bulky and...yeah, they look like rat-orcs, to be honest. Like Brian Nelson's hunchback orcs - and I'm not a fan of those.



Mantic made a big step foward in the last years and there is a big improvement between the old Hero on Drakon and the new one but the design is similar


True enough, but then you notice their prices aren't that cheap as before anymore. Rise in quality means rise in costs as well.

Still, I will never forget this masterpiece :

Spoiler:




It's a thing to have big hands, it's another to have impossible thin limbs and waist while still clearly wearing an armor.


...or this magnificent beast :

Spoiler:





Yep, it's been past long time their elves need to be entirely remade. It will be done in time, for sure (I know, the League shows interesting new miniatures, but I'm talking about specific kits made for KoW, not just a few miniatures with the same pose meant for a board game).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/15 11:59:48


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




There are plenty of people who are unironically in to the almost insect-like proportions of the mantic elves and are happy with them. Particularly when ranked up into big units in the manner they're intended for, they look OK by me.
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut





Billicus wrote:
There are plenty of people who are unironically in to the almost insect-like proportions of the mantic elves and are happy with them. Particularly when ranked up into big units in the manner they're intended for, they look OK by me.


Just like WFB miniatures looked okay ranked up into big units. Or AoS miniatures, actually...saw a few KoW armies made of them and even made one myself , looks pretty good.

Heh, I'm okay with that. It's just the "it's fine with one company but not with another" excuse that I'm not fond of. Well, a part of Mantic customers are people who strongly hate GW for their own reasons, in the end, so it's perfectly understandable to have that stance.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/15 12:39:16


 
   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




I don't think they were saying it's fine for one company and not another, they were saying they're OK with the slender proportions and prefer it to the GW heroic big hands thing. It's the characteristics of the models themselves, not who's making them. This "mantic customers are people who strongly hate GW" thing is dated as hell too, the KoW facebook pages have loads of GW models shown off on them same as any other supplier

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/15 12:44:57


 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

Sarouan wrote:
 kodos wrote:
I don't like the Mantic Elves because they are cheap, this is just a bonus

by the time they were released, Warhammer models had hands bigger than their heads and the other alternative were monopose Lord of the Rings minis


I'd prefer the GW big hands to the pin-sized armored waist of old plastic Mantic elves. That's what bother me the most with their range : if you want to have realistic proportions, you don't make an impossible thin waist.

I find it funny that you criticize GW on their hands but you're fine with Mantic elven waists. They're both the same problem: unrealistic proportions.


I said nothing about "realistic" and we are still talking about fantasy creatures here

yet GW Elves design is "humans with different helmets" while the Mantic approach is "slender and thin"
the Mantic design is unrealistc because they wanted it to be that way and not because they were unable to model smaller hands on human models

and GW sticked with that design, looking at the new AoS stuff and the main design feature are fancy helmets while the other changes come down to better design quality (the big hands were not intedet to be the point of difference between Elves and Humans but the result of not being able to do it better and calling it "heroic" scale)

I can understand that people just want their Elves to be Humans with pointy ears, long hair and fancy helmets
(the same as some want their Dwarfs to be humans with long beards and Orks to be bulky humans with Green Skin)
but this is not for me and I want my Elves to be different than humans

...or this magnificent beast :

I like that Dragon, it was made for Baordgame/RPG and it is not the usual "snake with wings" that we get from GW
not the best Dragon out there but not the worst either (specially for gaming)

Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

M41 - Alternative Rules for Battles in the 41st Millennium (40k LRB Project) 
   
Made in es
Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain




Vigo. Spain.

Theres some miniatures that are designed to be ranked up.

I LOVE the chaos warriors. But in AoS style formation they don't look half as good as when they are ranked as a big marching block of plate-clad killers.


In theory the way Mantic did their elves wasn't bad. Theres a ton of fantasy universes where elves are things from extremely thin and tall humans to more insect-like humanoids. But the execution could have been done much better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/15 12:58:22


 Crimson Devil wrote:

Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.

ERJAK wrote:
Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.

 
   
Made in si
Ravenous Beast Form







Mantic Elves are a child of the times when Mantic was aiming to be budget 90s GW and barely even accomplishing that

I'd be interested to see a full redesign now. Look how far the Goblins have come.

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Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut





Yeah, I mean 100% they know that comparatively they aren’t good compared to what they can do now.
Any time someone complains about Mantic quality it’s always their first lines, they have come a long way since then.

They do things I do and don’t like.
I went with them for ghouls and skeletons and zombies (obviously) for my VC just for price, but was happy enough with their stuff.

I have a load of Veermyn for Deadzone, I think their rats are done pretty well. Haven’t looked at these ratkin in detail though yet.



But now that Mantic is its own thing rather than a budget GW, I don’t really compare them any more than I would Infinity or Hordes etc for quality.
I tend to just look at a line for how good it looks. (Though a bit harder when a lot of people inter mingle units/models between the two to be fair..)
   
Made in gr
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!





Given the vast quality difference between Mantic's old and new Abyssal Dwarves and their old and new Goblins I'll raise a skeptical brow at whoever says that their Elves (or Dwarves, for that matter) look weird (read: crap) by choice rather than by lack of skill and/or equipment.
They are clearly improving their modelling skills.IMHO the last truly bad range they did was the Empire of Dust. Those models were simply awfully sculpted, unintentionally so.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/15 15:52:00


 
   
Made in us
Courageous Space Marine Captain





SoCal

Billicus wrote:
There are plenty of people who are unironically in to the almost insect-like proportions of the mantic elves and are happy with them. Particularly when ranked up into big units in the manner they're intended for, they look OK by me.


Yeah, I tend to think of Mantic’s elves more like Fae creatures, utterly inhuman and not quite biological. I think they work better for something like The Dresden Files, where their inhuman proportions sell the idea that there’s a whole uncanny magical world out there.

The RGD Gaming fauns are also extremely thin, which makes them natural army mates with Mantic Elves. The aesthetic isn’t for everyone, but it has its market for sure.

   
Made in us
Destructive Daemon Prince





Albany, NY

Sarouan wrote:
Heh, I'm okay with that. It's just the "it's fine with one company but not with another" excuse that I'm not fond of.
I feel like it's worth noting that GW make the best mass produced wargaming plastic sprue miniatures in the world and they know it and they charge for that. It feels like when you're the top of the market, you should probably be held to a different standard from the plucky upstarts nipping at your market share.

For me, what really makes or breaks a line is material, and I'm most happy that Mantic has sorted out its HIPS for KOW from the PVC trash of Dreadball and whatnot. Also shoutout to Mantic's resin quality ... with a nod to GW's utterly garbage resin* that they've never figured out and have simply worked to phase out entirely and replace with plastic - which deserves props, play to your strengths, Dub!

*Talking about finecast here, not FW's resin, tho that isn't super great either.

Also I really want to pull up a classic GW S-dragon and put it side by side with the chonky Mantic dragon. I have a feeling they're like cousins separated by 20ish years and 2000 lbs

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2021/01/15 17:17:29


KOW BATREPS: BLOODFIRE
INSTAGRAM: @boss_salvage 
   
Made in at
'Jack Scrapper





Austria

there is a difference in design and casting quality
Abyssal Dwarfs were aweful as metal/plastic hybrid kits (same as Empire of Dust), but their overal design did not really change with the new models

the Elves itself should have be a bit larger, like 1.5 times but keep the slender design and if the difference between old and new is similar to old and new Abyssal Dwarf design I am habby

and for EoD, either they re-do the stuff in Resin or make new plastics, but I won't touch them as long as they use the metal hybrids

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

The RGD Gaming fauns are also extremely thin, which makes them natural army mates with Mantic Elves. The aesthetic isn’t for everyone, but it has its market for sure.


did not know about those, guess I have found my Hunters of the Wild


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Boss Salvage wrote:
Sarouan wrote:
Heh, I'm okay with that. It's just the "it's fine with one company but not with another" excuse that I'm not fond of.
I feel like it's worth noting that GW make the best mass produced wargaming plastic sprue miniatures in the world and they know it and they charge for that. It feels like when you're the top of the market, you should probably be held to a different standard from the plucky upstarts nipping at your market share

it is cheaper for a reason, people wanting better quality for less money just to have a competition but than buy still GW because "reasons"

seen this with Smartphones, Graphic Cards, Cars, etc

the funny thing here is, if a new garage-company would bring in a gaming system with rules in the same quality as GW, people would not take it for free and asks them what they think to come up with such a low quality product
yet for GW they happily buy it because "they cannot do it better"

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/15 17:35:48


Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise

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