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If anyone has noticed, the vindicare might be skilled enough to hit a unit that has an invulnerable save because of its dodging skills. Not that they would have any chance to dodge a snipers bullet that they are totally unaware of.

Stop trying to apply realism to 40k.

I hope dearly that there are termies with 2 wounds (even if they are super one squad per army ones or whatever). It'd let me have a thunderwolf cavalry style unit while playing GK! cigarette much right?

Jaon wrote:If anyone has noticed, the vindicare might be skilled enough to hit a unit that has an invulnerable save because of its dodging skills. Not that they would have any chance to dodge a snipers bullet that they are totally unaware of.

Stop trying to apply realism to 40k.

They aren't saying he cant hit a dodging unit...they are saying that his bullets ability to take away a units invul save (which would be a dodge fluff wise for some units) is bunk. I agree.

Kinda hard to dodge with a bullet in your knee cap .

Admittedly, if someone can dodge bullets and close combat attacks to such an extent that they gain an invulnerable save, then they can probably dodge a bullet via pirouetting on their pinky or spinning on their head rather than use their knee/legs.

all these rumors sound good to me so far, am interested in hearing more.

As far as the vindi is concerned, they are probably expensive and if the army really is as 'elite' as they say it is the vindi will skyrocket to the top of the target priority list.

I agree with others, the 'shield breaker' is a little powerful but I don't think it's OTT, especcially in combination with the other rumours of the army.

Also, if one needs to visulaize the shot as if its real could be thought of as a classification of bullet that the assassin changes the specific type for the enemy; ie oh I'm fighting the foul taint of chaos so I'll bring these fancy magicla ward bullets that kryptonite the dark gods force fields, or oh I'm fighting Eldar so I'll pop a cap right in that chicks hip so she can't move as fast and therefore can't keep flipjacking outta the way of my homies attacks. and so on...

All in all how many players will even play GK at all much less field more then one of these per list, so realistically you won't face these assassins on any type of reggular basis.

Gitzbitah wrote:That shield breaker round probably has to cause an unsaved wound to have that effect. If it does, it seems like a very high risk, high reward proposition to fire it at a 3++ target.

Unless it's automatic, like a marker light.

Now what would be really awesome and original (albeit OP unless the point cost is adjusted accordingly)
would be if the vindi has the ability to take out models that are inside transports (open topped at least).

If open top transport then vindi gets to pick a target amongst the models riding in said open topped transports.
That would be bad for nobs in open top trukks and dark eldar HQs riding in those annoying banana boats every single DE list is filled to the brim with.

I cant see it being unrealistic that a super sniper cant hit a person that is standing on the open deck of some transport vehicle.

kronk wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:That shield breaker round probably has to cause an unsaved wound to have that effect. If it does, it seems like a very high risk, high reward proposition to fire it at a 3++ target.

Unless it's automatic, like a marker light.

That's what some are postulating. That the Shieldbreaker may not even cause a wound. It may just destroy a shield *shrug*

I'm also interested in the Turbo-Penetrator, if it's true. Armour Pen on 4D6 is average 14. Plus, if it still retains the sniper rule, then it is Rending on any 6's rolled and its AP1.

puma713 wrote:

kronk wrote:

Gitzbitah wrote:That shield breaker round probably has to cause an unsaved wound to have that effect. If it does, it seems like a very high risk, high reward proposition to fire it at a 3++ target.

Unless it's automatic, like a marker light.

That's what some are postulating. That the Shieldbreaker may not even cause a wound. It may just destroy a shield *shrug*

I'm also interested in the Turbo-Penetrator, if it's true. Armour Pen on 4D6 is average 14. Plus, if it still retains the sniper rule, then it is Rending on any 6's rolled and its AP1.

Answer to Land Raiders!

AlexHolker wrote:

Do they ignore the effects of the Shrouding?

Vindicares traditionally have a Spy Mask that might affect this.

As it is now, there is nothing that can negate the shrouding. Searchlights or acute senses or anything. Not even spymasks in my understanding.


As for negating dodges: This is a specially crafted set of ammunition, wielded by arguably the best shot in the 40k universe. Dodging this bullet is very much by chance. Not to mention if you have already been shot by this ammunition, you are probably a lot worse for wear than before.

I take all these rumours of changes to the ammunition with a heaping of salt because the vindicare does not need a who amount of tweaking in order to make it better, simply an update to make it compatible with 5th ed.

Unlimited ammo: reasonable. Ability to permanently negate an invulnerable save: unlikely and extreme cheese potential

To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Footsloggin wrote:To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Agreed, BS7 or BS8 is not out of the question (hell BS10 to make a point), given all other assassins are BS5 and the legendary aim of the vindicare. I mean all assassins having the same statline is a little...boring.

I mean they're only getting a 4+ to wound, so hitting is the biggest issue with the Vindicare, which shouldn't be an issue at all.

I wonder if they're doing anything with the assassin models, an update on the cullexus which isn't another "I AM POINTING!" pose or if there were an eversor in mid WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, that would be awesome and actually make me want to buy one

Ehsteve wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Agreed, BS7 or BS8 is not out of the question (hell BS10 to make a point), given all other assassins are BS5 and the legendary aim of the vindicare. I mean all assassins having the same statline is a little...boring.

I mean they're only getting a 4+ to wound, so hitting is the biggest issue with the Vindicare, which shouldn't be an issue at all.

I wonder if they're doing anything with the assassin models, an update on the cullexus which isn't another "I AM POINTING!" pose or if there were an eversor in mid WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, that would be awesome and actually make me want to buy one

Or maybe streamline the Culexus model so it doesn't look like a bobblehead.

puma713 wrote:

Ehsteve wrote:

Footsloggin wrote:To the above, an increase of BS is needed, I enjoy my hyper lethal assassin to hit more than 4 times a game... maybe 5!

Agreed, BS7 or BS8 is not out of the question (hell BS10 to make a point), given all other assassins are BS5 and the legendary aim of the vindicare. I mean all assassins having the same statline is a little...boring.

I mean they're only getting a 4+ to wound, so hitting is the biggest issue with the Vindicare, which shouldn't be an issue at all.

I wonder if they're doing anything with the assassin models, an update on the cullexus which isn't another "I AM POINTING!" pose or if there were an eversor in mid WRRRRRRYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY, that would be awesome and actually make me want to buy one

Or maybe streamline the Culexus model so it doesn't look like a bobblehead.

Agreed, the whole head-piece needs a redesign...

I wouldn't say a redesign. Just a better sculpt to match the artwork. Have you seen the picture of the Culexus in the Necron Codex? fething badass. Now if only they could make the model look like that. Same pose would kick ass too.

I personally haven't seen the Culexus from the Necrons codex. And if I did, I probably just assumed it was a Necron...

The one in the Necron codex is just a guy in a black body suit, with an elongated skull helmet and the culexus's weapon on the side of it. Basically the current art, but much smaller head, and in a really boring pose. I'd rather have the current style model, maybe tone down the head a tiny bit, and give him a more actiony pose. Not tone down the head to the point of boring, and remove any pose at all.

I have to say this codex is sounding rather crap (which is sad because I was hoping that GK would be my first imperial army). I don't care what buffs you have, if you have a low model count army my lootas will kill you to death and my 6pt. boyz with four attacks on the charge will kill you to death.

olympia wrote:I have to say this codex is sounding rather crap (which is sad because I was hoping that GK would be my first imperial army). I don't care what buffs you have, if you have a low model count army my lootas will kill you to death and my 6pt. boyz with four attacks on the charge will kill you to death.

Holy Imperial Sh t ! Ork lootas and 6 pt boyz can now kill you until you die, nerf that codex immediately

AlexHolker wrote:

Carlovonsexron wrote:In all fairness, arn't the grey knights supposed be able to do nothing less then take out the protection of "Gods", and destroy those that they empower? And that whole psychic thing going onwith them might help in their efforts to hinder an opponent from dodging blows...

The Vindicare is not a Grey Knight, and he's not a psychic. And a shield-breaker bullet being especially effective at hitting evasive targets is still stupid.

FYI, the MX379 Vindicare "Shieldbreaker" round also comes equipped with a bank of mini-suspensors and a microsensor to allow limited course correction in flight. It's some of the best technology the Imperium has to offer.



That, and you guys are also arguing about logic and realism in the context of PEOPLE DODGING BULLETS. Some perspective, please.

olympia wrote:I have to say this codex is sounding rather crap (which is sad because I was hoping that GK would be my first imperial army). I don't care what buffs you have, if you have a low model count army my lootas will kill you to death and my 6pt. boyz with four attacks on the charge will kill you to death.

See, now you ruined it for everyone. Until you went and posted that GW had no idea there were horde/swarm armies, and people could have exploited their ignorance to great LOLZ while housing the brand new uberhyped GK army.

Now they are gonna know about horde/swarm armies and they will give the GK big guns to kill lots of low point/low quality troops before they close to CC. You ruined it all.

Seriously? Unless they really do have a rerollable armor save, no 20 man army will be worth the plastic its cast in. Look at Nob Bikers. High toughness, great wound allocation, superb mobility, access to every conventional save and FNP- and it isn't enough. They fall to many armies out there.

Especially with the introduction of Codex: Poisoned Weapons, there really isn't a good way to make an elite army survivable with any existing rules. I hope that whatever GW does with the Grey Knights allows them to compete, but it really will take something akin to rerollable 2+ saves to have them weather even the melee fire of a horde army if they only have 20 models.

Gitzbitah wrote:Seriously? Unless they really do have a rerollable armor save, no 20 man army will be worth the plastic its cast in. Look at Nob Bikers. High toughness, great wound allocation, superb mobility, access to every conventional save and FNP- and it isn't enough. They fall to many armies out there.

Especially with the introduction of Codex: Poisoned Weapons, there really isn't a good way to make an elite army survivable with any existing rules. I hope that whatever GW does with the Grey Knights allows them to compete, but it really will take something akin to rerollable 2+ saves to have them weather even the melee fire of a horde army if they only have 20 models.

One thing to remember...just because an army CAN be played with XXX number of models doesnt mean it should. Hell, you can play Orks with 4 models if you really wanted to.

Another thing to consider...even if the "20 man army" is of useable point size its likely not going to be a "take all comers" army. I would figure that GKs most elite list would be most useful against their intended enemy...daemons, and tailored with special rules and abilities to combat them. You may be able to put together a killer anti-daemon list with only 20 GKs, but it wouldnt be excessively strong against other armies of similar size and points. For instance...a NFW should be stronger against a bloodletter than an Ork Nob. Any bonuses/effects it has beyond a normal power weapon should be applied only to deamons.

I would be very disappointed in GW if they made GK a super well rounded elite army. Against anything other than deamons they should behave like upgraded/extra expensive SM. They are a very specialized army, and should be designed that way.

Sadly, if GW thinks there is enough money in it they will make them all kinds of broken. If we end up with super psycher Space Wolves Ill be a little annoyed. If they make them super effective against all armies then they are nothing more than uber marines...and thats not what they are supposed to be.

Wonder if my old Daemonhunter List will still be viable in the new Damonhunter Codex:

3000 Pts - Daemonhunters Roster - Daemonhunters Apocalypse

HQ: Brother-Captain Stern (7#, 452 Pts)
1 Brother-Captain Stern @ 452 Pts
GK Terminator Retinue
0 Grey Knight Terminator Retinue @ [311] Pts
GK Terminator(s); Holocaust
6 GK Terminator(s) @ [291] Pts
Incinerator

HQ: Inquisitor Lord (7#, 311 Pts)
1 Inquisitor Lord @ 311 Pts
Sanctuary; Artificer Armour; Sacred Incense; Unguents of Warding; Annointed Weapon; Storm Shield; Mount in Chimera
1 Sacred Incense @ [10] Pts
1 Annointed Weapon @ [0] Pts
1 Chimera @ [108] Pts
Dozer Blade; Hunter Killer Missile; Smoke Launchers; Turret Heavy Flamer; Heavy Flamer
1 Acolyte @ [9] Pts
Close combat weapon (x1); Bolter
1 Acolyte @ [9] Pts
Close combat weapon (x1); Bolter
1 Warrior @ [20] Pts
Veteran Guardsman; Plasmagun (x1)
1 Warrior @ [20] Pts
Veteran Guardsman; Plasmagun (x1)
1 Warrior @ [20] Pts
Veteran Guardsman; Plasmagun (x1)

Troops: Grey Knights (7#, 301 Pts)
4 Grey Knights @ 301 Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Troops: Grey Knights (7#, 301 Pts)
4 Grey Knights @ 301 Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Psycannon @ [50] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Fast Attack: Grey Knight Teleport Attack (7#, 271 Pts)
4 Grey Knight Teleport Attack @ 271 Pts
Deep Strike
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Fast Attack: Grey Knight Teleport Attack (7#, 271 Pts)
4 Grey Knight Teleport Attack @ 271 Pts
Deep Strike
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight with Incinerator @ [35] Pts
1 Grey Knight Justicar @ [101] Pts
Master-crafted weapon; Psycannon Bolts; Refractor Field; Unguents of Warding; Frag Grenades

Heavy Support: Grey Knights Dreadnought (1#, 170 Pts)
1 Grey Knights Dreadnought @ 170 Pts
Blessed; Sacred Hull; Incinerator; Twin Linked Lascannon

Heavy Support: Grey Knights Dreadnought (1#, 165 Pts)
1 Grey Knights Dreadnought @ 165 Pts
Blessed; Sacred Hull; Twin Linked Lascannon; Missile Launcher

Heavy Support: Grey Knights Dreadnought (1#, 165 Pts)
1 Grey Knights Dreadnought @ 165 Pts
Blessed; Sacred Hull; Twin Linked Lascannon; Missile Launcher

Troops: Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (10#, 140 Pts)
9 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 140 Pts
Flamer (x1); Grenade Launcher (x1)
1 Veteran Stormtrooper @ [35] Pts
Hellpistol (x1); Power Weapon (x1)

Troops: Inquisitorial Stormtroopers (10#, 140 Pts)
9 Inquisitorial Stormtroopers @ 140 Pts
Flamer (x1); Grenade Launcher (x1)
1 Veteran Stormtrooper @ [35] Pts
Hellpistol (x1); Power Weapon (x1)

Fast Attack: Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron [Guard] @ 155 Pts
1 Valkyrie [Guard] @ [155] Pts
Lascannon; Multiple Rocket Pods (x2); Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2)

Fast Attack: Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron (1#, 155 Pts)
1 Valkyrie Assault Carrier Squadron [Guard] @ 155 Pts
1 Valkyrie [Guard] @ [155] Pts
Lascannon; Multiple Rocket Pods (x2); Heavy Bolter Sponsons (x2)

Total Roster Cost: 2997

Created with Army Builder
Copyright (c) 1997-2006 Lone Wolf Development, Inc. All rights reserved.

if not I have to do a lot of rebuilding.

Gitzbitah wrote:Seriously? Unless they really do have a rerollable armor save, no 20 man army will be worth the plastic its cast in.

I can imagine a GH army being rather effective with assassins shooting dead nobs/powerfists/whatever leaving normal troops fighting 2+ rr saving power weaponed threashers. and if you get tarpitted, 6" holocaust blast.

If the army really gets everything in the rumors, it doesn't seem bad, your running me down with boys, I'm shooting them, and then no-scatter teleporting behind your lines to kill your looters and such, when you reach combat, it'll be with no nobs (since I can assassinate them and back away while firing) and with such a small army size it'll be difficult to get enough boys in combat to kill them all in a reasonable amount of time.

GK might not be great, but they could be different and fun, which is pretty great.
or they could be extra shiney space marines of aweful, which would not be fun.

I'm trying to grasp why posting a 3,000 point list when the codex is still months and months away seriously contributes to the rumors . . . probably try the "Army List" section of the forum.

I, for one, eagerly await the coming of the Shiny marines of Cheese.

Vengence shall be mine upon all those who said GKs sucked.

yep. I wanted do collect for 2 years, but I didn't have the dosh. When I finally decided to go for it, GW had taken the codexes away and the C:GK were in the pipeline.
I wanna see them fighting in the midst of a swarm of 'nids, with a decent chance of winning...

IF they have access to the dreadnought with a Heavy 12 Psycannon, then I don't see them having a problem with ork hordes... Especially if it has a long range of 36-48", then the horde will recieve around 7 wounds on their boyz a turn, even IF you have a KFF, Psycannons ignore invulns... unless this varient does not.

Overall, unless there are a few MORE new toys in my arsenal, it's going to be *Vindicare snipes PK* *Dreadnought guns down orks* *GK proceed to get killed by the grots I missed *

Vindicare sniping PK Nobz makes Boyz squads very, very, very, very poor counters to GK. A single successful Hit/dead result with the 2 wound shot and the Dreadnought just screams OM NOM NOM and rolls its face around until all the Boyz are dead.