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Made in us
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




 Weazel wrote:
Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?

You can upgrade your Captain to a Chapter Master, and you can upgrade a couple of weapons or various other things (one or two) to Relics. (One relic for free if your Warlord is a Space Marine, and then one for a Command Point or two for three Command Points.) Since those relics are much better than the base gear and can drastically change a characters role - For example, swapping the dinky Power Axe in for a better Relic Blade - it's pretty great.
   
Made in fi
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets




Finland

Waaaghpower wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?

You can upgrade your Captain to a Chapter Master, and you can upgrade a couple of weapons or various other things (one or two) to Relics. (One relic for free if your Warlord is a Space Marine, and then one for a Command Point or two for three Command Points.) Since those relics are much better than the base gear and can drastically change a characters role - For example, swapping the dinky Power Axe in for a better Relic Blade - it's pretty great.


Cool, didn't spot this anywhere before.

7000+
3500
2000 
   
Made in us
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




 Weazel wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
 Weazel wrote:
Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?

You can upgrade your Captain to a Chapter Master, and you can upgrade a couple of weapons or various other things (one or two) to Relics. (One relic for free if your Warlord is a Space Marine, and then one for a Command Point or two for three Command Points.) Since those relics are much better than the base gear and can drastically change a characters role - For example, swapping the dinky Power Axe in for a better Relic Blade - it's pretty great.


Cool, didn't spot this anywhere before.

I'm not entirely sure it's intended, given GW's recent track record of completely missing major implications or just major thing in general about the rules that they write. It's possible that they'll FAQ things so that you have to pick relics and Chapter Master upgrades when writing your list or something, but at the moment, I'm loving the versatility and options. It really makes it feel like 'Command Points' are living up to their name by giving players dynamic control of their army rather than making the game a 'Who writes the better list/who gets first turn' competition.
   
Made in ca
Courageous Space Marine Captain





 Weazel wrote:
Hold on, you buy upgrades with command points?


some yes, you can upgrade a captain to a CM with CPs, or increase the number of relics you have access too with them

Ultimately the power of an Inquisitor extends as far as he can make it extend 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





 casvalremdeikun wrote:
Here is the English language pts.
https://m.imgur.com/a/jvbdX

I don't know if this was ever discussed, but they dropped the points of the Vindicator by 25 pts. It is still overpriced for what it does (sadly, I REALLY want to run one), but a little less so now.


Nice, let's do a rundown, comparing the Index with the Codex.
New units/weapons aren't mentioned.

HQ:

Captain in Terminator Armour: -17 pts
Librarian in Terminator Armour: -2 pts
Techmarine: -13 pts

Removed:
Chaplain on Bike.
Librarian on Bike.
Techmarine on Bike.
Land Raider Excelsior.
Rhino Primaris.

Elites:

Centurion Assault Squad: -20 pts
Chapter Champion: -5 pts.
Company Champion: -16 pts
Ironclad Dreadnaught: -40 pts

Removed:
Apothecary on Bike.
Company Ancient on Bike.
Company Champion on Bike.
Company Veterans on Bikes.
Damned Legionnaires.
Imperial Cpace Marine.
Tyrannic War Veterans.

Fast Attack:
Attack Bikes: -10 pts
Bikes: -6 pts
Inceptors: -15 pts
Land Speeders: -10 pts
Scout Bikes: -2 pts

Heavy Support:
Centurion Devastators: +15 pts
Hellblasters: -2 pts
Predator: -12 pts
Stalker: -10 pts
TFC: +27 pts
TFC Gunner: -10 pts
Vindicator: -25 pts
Whirlwind: -15 pts

Dedicated Transports:
Drop Pod: -10 pts
Land Speeder Storm: -10 pts

Troops:
No change.

Flyers:
No change.

Named Characters:

Chaplain Cassius: -40 pts
The Emperors Champion: -33 pts
Marneus Calgar: -50 pts
Sergeant Chronus: -23 pts
Sergeant Telion: -14 pts

Removed:
Marneus Calgar in Artificer Armour.

Ranged Weapons:

Plasma incinerator: -3 pts
Skyspear Missile Launcher: -30 pts
Special Issue Boltgun: -1 pts
Thunder Fire Cannon: -30 pts

Removed:
Conversion Beamer!?
Twin Autocannon.
Twin Heavy Flamer.
Twin Plasmagun. (RIP Razorbacks with Las/Plas I assume?)

Melee Weapons:
Lightning Claws: -1/-1 pts
Powerfist: -8 pts
Thunder Hammer: -4 pts

- - - - - - - -

I think that's all, please correct me if I wrote something wrong.

Thoughts on changes.

RIP everything that doesn't have a model, basically.
RIP various bikers, RIP Rifle-Dread, RIP Las/Plas and Twin Heavy Flamer Razorbacks, RIP AA Calgar, and worst of all.... RIP Conversion Beamer.

Devastator Centurions going up by 15 ppm is also a pity, and quite strange. They where already overpriced. Now they're probably hitting the shelf for my part, I just can't see myself running them with Hurricane Bolters and Grav Cannons for 112 ppm...

On the Flipside, yay for pointreductions!
That powerfist change can be quite massive, a 5 man tactical terminator squad is now 32 pts cheaper, and a 10 man is 72 pts cheaper. Eventough I use alot of Thunder Hammers, I'm glad the PF and the TH doesn't cost the same amount on non-characters anymore, that just felt stupid: Do you want Damage D3 or Damage 3 for the same price? Hmmm....

Landspeeders might be viable, at least with 2 Heavy Flamers.

As an avid fan of Assault Centurions, that change makes me really happy. They went from stupidly overpriced to "alright".
As a fan of the Ironclad, that change makes me go "ehh?". I guess it was alittle overpriced perhaps, but not by 40 pts. I'm gonna feel dirty fielding it now.

Big winner in the tank-department are the Vindicator and the Hunter.
The Vindicator dropped a whopping 25 pts in price, so now you'll have a T8 tank with a Demo Cannon for the low price of 135 pts, quite the steal.
The Hunter meanwhile, didn't drop in price, but it's weapon became free, so it went down to 90 pts...for a T8 tank? Wut!? 90 Points for a old-school twinlinked Lascannon also seems like a steal.

The changes to the TFC seem strange (the changes, not the result), but if my math is correct, the whole kit, Gunner and all, will have dropped by 13 pts. A needed change, but if the rules are still the same, I'd still rate the TFC as meh, especially with the Whirlwind becoming cheaper as well.

All in all, give me the codex naoooo!

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2017/07/28 12:13:29


5000 pts
5500 pts
6500 pts
8500 pts
10.000 pts
 
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

Im pretty sure Cassius went down 40, not up 40.

Im kind of glad i picked up a trio of Preds now - Chronus Kill Shotting something will be bueno, especially with Guilliman for insurance.

Ill probably only get one use of it, but 4 bs2+/3+ lascannons, wounding almost everything on 2s thanks to killshot, do 4+4d6 damage.

Him in a Predator is 225 points now. Not bad.


 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





 Crazyterran wrote:
Im pretty sure Cassius went down 40, not up 40.



Yes, my bad.
Fixed.

5000 pts
5500 pts
6500 pts
8500 pts
10.000 pts
 
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

Melee Weapons:
Lightning Claws: -1/-1 pts
Powerfist: -8 pts
Thunder Hammer: -4 pts


Hopefully they will adjust all other users of these weapons in next faq.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Aye, one can hope.

5000 pts
5500 pts
6500 pts
8500 pts
10.000 pts
 
   
Made in us
Manhunter





Huntsville, Texas

 Mr Morden wrote:
Melee Weapons:
Lightning Claws: -1/-1 pts
Powerfist: -8 pts
Thunder Hammer: -4 pts


Hopefully they will adjust all other users of these weapons in next faq.


Yeah, it'd be nice for us scrubs who play things like Blood Angels to get the points reductions while still using our Index. Don't want to have to buy the Marines Codex just to get a few points reductions until we get ours.
   
Made in gb
Boosting Space Marine Biker




Now that assault centurions are much cheaper i'm wondering if it's worth taking them over a unit of terminators in my land raider
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






GAdvance wrote:
Now that assault centurions are much cheaper i'm wondering if it's worth taking them over a unit of terminators in my land raider


Some people hate the model but it certainly has grown on me

I will be running a 3 man in a land raider probably with a chaplain in toe for the 10th slot.

question is flamers or melta, hurricane or launchers.

then again im not 100% sure

the centurions are really good anti tank. but so is the landraider
those fists seem wasted kinda.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/28 16:08:36


 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 Desubot wrote:
GAdvance wrote:
Now that assault centurions are much cheaper i'm wondering if it's worth taking them over a unit of terminators in my land raider


Some people hate the model but it certainly has grown on me

I will be running a 3 man in a land raider probably with a chaplain in toe for the 10th slot.

question is flamers or melta, hurricane or launchers.

then again im not 100% sure

the centurions are really good anti tank. but so is the landraider
those fists seem wasted kinda.


I think 6 Bolters outweighs the advantages of a chance at Mortal Wounds, but Melta + Launchers fits more what they want to fight.

I've always done the Bolters + Melta.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.

The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.
   
Made in us
Legendary Master of the Chapter






bort wrote:
Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.

The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.

Yeah it sucks for people that do conversions.

as to price drops..... hard to tell. the ironclads i though were fine for the most part.

unless i missed a price increase on some sort of weapon im not sure why they got a cut.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
 Scott-S6 wrote:
And yet another thread is hijacked for Unit to ask for the same advice, receive the same answers and make the same excuses.

Oh my god I'm becoming martel.
Send help!

 
   
Made in us
Thunderhawk Pilot Dropping From Orbit



Ottawa

bort wrote:
Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.

The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.


It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.

Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2017/07/28 17:46:37


 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Lemondish wrote:


It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.

Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.


Wait, youre saying its legal to mix and match with Index units? I guess I'm still thinking old style where 1 entry replaces the other. For cut units this is easy enough, add back a vet biker squad for example. Autocannon dreads seems weirder. Youve got 2 different entries with different legal arms.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





bort wrote:
Wait, youre saying its legal to mix and match with Index units? I guess I'm still thinking old style where 1 entry replaces the other. For cut units this is easy enough, add back a vet biker squad for example. Autocannon dreads seems weirder. Youve got 2 different entries with different legal arms.


Yes, GW has been quite explicit about this:

"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

Right. GW is doing a far more permissive set of rules for what you can take this time.

And I love them for it.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




 Melissia wrote:
Right. GW is doing a far more permissive set of rules for what you can take this time.

And I love them for it.

Meh. They're 'Permitting' you to use rules from two books that used to just come in a single convenient package. If you don't have Battlescribe, trying to collate the rules and point-value differences between the two books when writing a list would be a huge pain in the butt.

Like... Other than a few tiny outliers that had rules from special releases (The Command Tanks, Imperial Space Marine, etc,) most of the stuff that is now cut from the index are models and units that have had rules for a really long time. It's never been a problem, for example, to have a Command Squad on bikes in the main codex, or to make Rifleman dreads a legal option, or to have both versions of Marneus Calgar listed next to each other, for players to decide which they want.

Games Workshop cut these options from the codex and is now 'Permitting' you to use an older book to fill in the gaps.
(Also, it's worth noting that a couple of these options had their non-bike version reduced in points, meaning that the biker versions are now overcosted pretty significantly. If I'm to believe that GW genuinely thinks a Techmarine should be 13pts cheaper and a Company Chamption should be 16pts cheaper, then that means their biker versions are now 13 and 16pts overcosted, respectively. Heck - Calgar in Artificer Armor now costs MORE than his Terminator equivalent by 35pts, despite being worse in almost every regard. (He's 1" faster and fits in some transports more easily. That's it.)
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I view it as no different from needing forgeworld in order to use forgeworld units.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Ancient Space Wolves Venerable Dreadnought




 Melissia wrote:
I view it as no different from needing forgeworld in order to use forgeworld units.

Except that these aren't Forgeworld units. They are Games Workshop units, that have had rules in the main Games Workshop codex for as long as I've been playing the game. (The beginning of 5th, for context.) These aren't massively different units with their own specialist kits and developers, these are different wargear sets and mounting options being axed from the main Codex for no reason at all, that they've been able to include without problem for decades.
It's made worse by my aforementioned issue with the points, effectively dooming many of these options to noncompetetive armies only, because they're all pointlessly overcosted now.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lemondish wrote:
bort wrote:
Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.

The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.


It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.

Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.


It's obvious they are setting up to phase those units out and you're crazy if you don't think that's the plan. And the biggest problem is that those units aren't just conversions, They are old models, and the implication is really ominous.
   
Made in gb
Wight Lord with the Sword of Kings






UK

 Kingsley wrote:
bort wrote:
Wait, youre saying its legal to mix and match with Index units? I guess I'm still thinking old style where 1 entry replaces the other. For cut units this is easy enough, add back a vet biker squad for example. Autocannon dreads seems weirder. Youve got 2 different entries with different legal arms.


Yes, GW has been quite explicit about this:

"While the indexes are designed to cover a long history of miniatures, the codexes are designed to give you rules for the current Warhammer 40,000 range. There are a few options in the indexes for some Characters and vehicles that are no longer represented in the Citadel range – certain Dreadnought weapons that don’t come in the box, or some characters on bikes, for example.

Don’t worry though, you can still use all of these in your games if you have these older models. In these instances, use the datasheet from the index, and the most recent points published for that model and its weapons (currently, also in the index).

They still gain all the army wide-bonuses for things like Chapter Tactics and can use Space Marines Stratagems and the like, so such venerable heroes still fit right in with the rest of your army."


Slightly confused so do you use the revised Codex points cost for Power Fists if a legacy unit has one or the Index cost assuming they don't all update the points costs of Power Fists acorss ALL indexes as they should.

"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos

"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001

www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/528517.page

A Bloody Road - my Warhammer Fantasy Fiction 
   
Made in us
Consigned to the Grim Darkness





USA

I'm gonna use the lower costs for all power fists, thunder hammers, lightning claws, and etc.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Well, thats good. Will be confusing in a few years when theres more books and releases out, but good. Hopefully they, or someone, makes a reference list with all the legal units and which book(s) to look in for wargear options. As well as a cost precedence guide once theres more than 2 books.

And so, woo, so I can still run my 20 year old svelte Calgar in artificer model if Im okay with overpaying.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




stratigo wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
bort wrote:
Huh, not keen on that unit tie to model availability. No more bike command squads, rifleman, or las/plas hurts a lot of people who have done conversions (or bought forgeworld kits) over the last few versions. Yet a twin AC razorback might still exist? Would hate to lose this, would wreck my list, but it also has no model.

The price drops are nice, mostly fixes the worst imbalances in the index.


It hurts nobody because those are still viable options in the Index and can still be used. It sucks only for people who do not want to carry a second book, and the only thing I can say to these people is "cry some more'.

Nobody is hurt. Nobody loses anything. Not right now.


It's obvious they are setting up to phase those units out and you're crazy if you don't think that's the plan. And the biggest problem is that those units aren't just conversions, They are old models, and the implication is really ominous.

Then don't let it happen. Whining here is not going to do anything, but any attempt to do so you should make a big deal on Facebook or something. I'd be willing to do that if I used it.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Tucson, AZ

If the unit/configuration has new rules, you need to use them. If the unit/configuration is only in the Index, you can still use the unit, but you have to use the points outlined in the Index. They'll still get Chapter Tactics though, and they're still 100% legitimate.

So yes, you can still take dudes on bikes, rifleman dreads and las/plas razorbacks. You can mix them with the new codex units and everything is kosher.

It's annoying that you have to use multiple books, but there's nothing wrong with it.

- Imperial Fists - 7290
- Deathskulls - 6150

Take a look at my fully painted armies and terrain! - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/548464.page 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





 wtwlf123 wrote:
If the unit/configuration has new rules, you need to use them. If the unit/configuration is only in the Index, you can still use the unit, but you have to use the points outlined in the Index. They'll still get Chapter Tactics though, and they're still 100% legitimate.

So yes, you can still take dudes on bikes, rifleman dreads and las/plas razorbacks. You can mix them with the new codex units and everything is kosher.

It's annoying that you have to use multiple books, but there's nothing wrong with it.


Thankyou for answering every question I had. You are awsome.
   
Made in ca
Bounding Assault Marine






I feel like they should have had an extra section in the back for Out Of Production Units or something. Either way, at least they aren't being phased out for the time being and I doubt they'd attempt that for a long time yet as they'd risk losing some of their market.

Is the Thunder Hamm also -5 for characters?

Vindicators also got a bit of a buff in one of the Stratagems. Predators are still a bit too pricey compared to Lasorbacks for me, but appreciate them being an ok option now.

Also I have a question unrelated to the new codex:
What is the best deep strike blocker / screen unit to bubble wrap around a few Devastator Squads w/ characters? I am thinking bolter scout squads of 5 and also possibly a squad of scout bikes due to their Stratagem ability to fall back and use Cluster Mines (causing D3 mortal wounds) to cluster f the enemy. Would that be very effective though? Or should I guard them with something beefier like a dreadnought along with scouts? Should I be wrapping them in more flamers -landspeeder double heavy flamer style perhaps?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/29 02:52:34


 
   
 
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