Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 TedNugent wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.

Somehow I totally missed that. Given that I would prefer to use codex rules, what would be your preferred loadout for the Sargent? Pistol seems meh as you would have to be in CC to use it or give up the bolter shots, but hey are not an exceptional HTH unit either.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.

Somehow I totally missed that. Given that I would prefer to use codex rules, what would be your preferred loadout for the Sargent? Pistol seems meh as you would have to be in CC to use it or give up the bolter shots, but hey are not an exceptional HTH unit either.

combi plasma is a good general loadout.

I do have one running a combi melta with a squad of 2 melta bikers. They target a vehical

Shrapnelbait wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:

Shrapnelbait wrote:
I'm going to be building my second bike squad, and I'm debating which loadout to give them. I already have the Dark Vengance bikers, and I'm going to mod the pistol one into a plasma, so a plasma loadout is covered.

I'm debating on whether to go with meltas or flamers. I usually play with a variety of opponents, and I don't know whether I'm going to be up against tau/marine types or MEQ until I get there.

I was thinking flamers as the 12+2 bolter shots and 3d6 autohits (combi flamer on sarge)should still be good against MEQ just on volume, and seriously roast lighter units. I can also Advance and get Jink and still be guaranteed hits with the flamers.

Ravenwing bike squad sergeants cannot take combi weapons. Per the entry they can only replace their bolt pistol with a CCW or another pistol.

Somehow I totally missed that. Given that I would prefer to use codex rules, what would be your preferred loadout for the Sargent? Pistol seems meh as you would have to be in CC to use it or give up the bolter shots, but hey are not an exceptional HTH unit either.

If you're set on using codex rules then you're probably best just sticking to a chainsword. As you said, they're not a great CC unit so it's not really worth investing in a pistol or melee. I'd strongly recommend going with the index and giving him a combi-weapons though

I've taken a new look at these guys recently as allies for a Custodes Bike force. What are all your opinions on Black Knights and Darkshrouds after the FAQ and all the other changes back to CA?

I think Black Knights make most sense when combined with Sammael, Talonmaster and a big Weapons of the Dark Age buff.

I think what we were just discussing is that you can actually make pretty shooty Ravenwing Biker units instead, with 3 specials and 3 storm bolters. Or you can add an attack bike for another heavy bolter and storm bolter.

Dark Shroud could stack with the Custodes banner unit that gives -1 to hit. Dark Angels Librarians also have a spell called Aversion that subtracts one to hit for shenanigans. If you could combined the -1 to hit from the banner and the Dark Shroud, that would be effective. The -1 to hit warlord trait could also be pretty lulzy. You could theoretically stack the banner, the Dark Shroud, the Warlord Trait, then cast Aversion for a -4 to hit on your Warlord.

 TedNugent wrote:
I think Black Knights make most sense when combined with Sammael, Talonmaster and a big Weapons of the Dark Age buff.

I think what we were just discussing is that you can actually make pretty shooty Ravenwing Biker units instead, with 3 specials and 3 storm bolters. Or you can add an attack bike for another heavy bolter and storm bolter.

Dark Shroud could stack with the Custodes banner unit that gives -1 to hit. Dark Angels Librarians also have a spell called Aversion that subtracts one to hit for shenanigans. If you could combined the -1 to hit from the banner and the Dark Shroud, that would be effective. The -1 to hit warlord trait could also be pretty lulzy. You could theoretically stack the banner, the Dark Shroud, the Warlord Trait, then cast Aversion for a -4 to hit on your Warlord.

I believe the Darkshroud is for chapter units only and the Custodes one is for Custodes units only. They won't stack.

You could however, use the Darkshroud, Relic, and Aversion for -3 for the warlord against the one unit that the aversion was on, but your opponent probably woudn't be able to target the Warlord anyway since you will have other units on the table. The Darkshroud would be the first to go.

Shrapnelbait wrote:

 TedNugent wrote:
I think Black Knights make most sense when combined with Sammael, Talonmaster and a big Weapons of the Dark Age buff.

I think what we were just discussing is that you can actually make pretty shooty Ravenwing Biker units instead, with 3 specials and 3 storm bolters. Or you can add an attack bike for another heavy bolter and storm bolter.

Dark Shroud could stack with the Custodes banner unit that gives -1 to hit. Dark Angels Librarians also have a spell called Aversion that subtracts one to hit for shenanigans. If you could combined the -1 to hit from the banner and the Dark Shroud, that would be effective. The -1 to hit warlord trait could also be pretty lulzy. You could theoretically stack the banner, the Dark Shroud, the Warlord Trait, then cast Aversion for a -4 to hit on your Warlord.

I believe the Darkshroud is for chapter units only and the Custodes one is for Custodes units only. They won't stack.

You could however, use the Darkshroud, Relic, and Aversion for -3 for the warlord against the one unit that the aversion was on, but your opponent probably woudn't be able to target the Warlord anyway since you will have other units on the table. The Darkshroud would be the first to go.

Unfortunately you're right concerning the Dark Shroud

I don't think it'd be worth it in that case. The dang thing is p. expensive. Unless you were building a max strength Black Knights unit and spamming WotDA on it with Aversion to keep it protected. It'd have to have something to make it worth the points investment.

Thanks, everyone! This helps orient my brain.

I use my dark shroud to protect my dev plasma squad, sitting back any hopefully hiding behind cover. It still normally does die first or 2nd turn, but it is a fire magnet so it's expected and if it lives one turn have it "advance" an inch to get a 4++ save. Your not using its gun, keep it a heavy bolter, and keep something expensive alive for as long as you can. But yeah, it's going to die. Accept it. But if you CAN keep it alive until you get your first turn run it next to a flyer that is hard to hit for one seriously nasty drop ship.

Dark shroud + dark talon + ravenwing bike squad + Samuel in sableclaw = an expensive but seriously fast and hard to deal with force. As long as you get first turn to get that jinx off that is.

2 Darkshrouds is the way to go. The first one won't last past turn one and if they're taking both down then they've protected your other units better even than their -1 could have.

Stacking with the shroud is pretty situational given characters are unlikely to be targetable anyway. It could work on a kamikaze Talonmaster, but then you're better of giving him the Heavenfall Blade.

Stacking with your flyers however... That's a go

Still lots of 200 point Dark Talons in London GT armies.

I would've expected as much. I definitely think they're still worth it at 200pts. I only think it'd become truely cost inefficient if you were to properly spam them (which we can't do anymore anyway)

 axisofentropy wrote:
Still lots of 200 point Dark Talons in London GT armies.

is there a list of armies ?

btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.

-ed

 zedsdead wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Still lots of 200 point Dark Talons in London GT armies.

is there a list of armies ?

btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.

-ed

not all of them are in yet but hundreds of London GT lists are in this mammoth document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QuVR2KdfKO08bBLYw9vobghM_xwhejofmtyXQ7LgQU8/edit

My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.

-ed

My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.

Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit

 Brother Payne wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.

-ed

My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.

Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit

the first turn deep strike beta rule. The new bikes are not black Knights, but will screen for the black Knights.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.

-ed

My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.

Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit

the first turn deep strike beta rule. The new bikes are not black Knights, but will screen for the black Knights.

Oh gotcha. Have you play tested the Inceptors with the beta rules? Idk about you but I rarely find myself dropping mine in T1 anyway

 Brother Payne wrote:
Have you play tested the Inceptors with the beta rules? Idk about you but I rarely find myself dropping mine in T1 anyway

that's a good point, and no I haven't. Sometimes I drop them near Azrael and banner, or Talonmaster and Darkshroud.

 Brother Payne wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:
btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.

-ed

My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.

Did you have a specific reason for the switch? I haven't found RWBK to be worth it with less than 6 in the unit

the first turn deep strike beta rule. The new bikes are not black Knights, but will screen for the black Knights.

Oh gotcha. Have you play tested the Inceptors with the beta rules? Idk about you but I rarely find myself dropping mine in T1 anyway

I have an I've been dropping them turn 1 too. Even with Dawn or War for deployment, it's a big ol' 3/4 of the board those 18" guns can cover. The only scenario I can't cover it the really big parking lot shooters like the Baneblades or artillery parks.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:

 axisofentropy wrote:
Still lots of 200 point Dark Talons in London GT armies.

is there a list of armies ?

btw.. did you run your list at that GT yet ? interested to see how you did.

-ed

not all of them are in yet but hundreds of London GT lists are in this mammoth document https://docs.google.com/document/d/1QuVR2KdfKO08bBLYw9vobghM_xwhejofmtyXQ7LgQU8/edit

My local GT, the TNT in Nashville, is May 18th - 20th thanks for asking! I swapped out Inceptors for 4 bikes. I've gotten lots of reps in so I'm confident I'll place about as well as a Dark Angel can. Just gotta resist charging in those Black Knights and keep them at skirmish range, a mistake I often make.

Its so true about the BKs .. to often i want to charge them into combat and regret doing it.

Ive been switching back and forth between the BKs and a Supreme Command Det of 3 Shield Capts. I also ran 2 squads of 5 each Agressor squads with a full 10 hellblaster and Azzy and Ancient the other night. Sheesh the firepower coming from 10 Agressors is amazing.

I don't know that charging with Black Knights is always such a bad idea unless you are charging into something like a large blob or a dedicated assault unit (like Berzerkers). Run them up the board with Speed of the Raven, supercharge your plasma into a tough target like a vehicle, then charge some small weak unit (like Guardsmen or Fire Warriors, provided they aren't T'au sept with all kinds of buddies nearby...). If you wipe the unit you charged, great. If not, your opponent will have to either fall back to allow his other units to shoot your Knights, or he will stay in which case you'll get a second round of swings to hopefully polish them off. With good positioning and some luck, you could even wrap the survivors so they can't fall back in their turn. If you are somehow still locked in combat at the beginning of your next turn, just fall back and use the Intractable stratagem to allow your guys to still get their shots in.

Okay, I realize this may not be viable that much in practice, but to me you are wasting the power of the Corvus hammers if you absolutely never charge with Black Knights.

I've given up on my black knights, unless you pour loads of points into supporting them with an ancient, Sammael, Talonmaster, Darkshroud, and maybe even apothecary, I've been find that they just don't pull their weight. I could see a list being build around two big blobs of 10 with all the support they need, but I can rely much more heavily on my semi-mobile Az gunline.

Aggressors and Hellblasters pull their weight every damn time. I currently run just 3 aggressors, and could see myself going for a second unit of 3, but I don't think I'd go any more than that. I'm thinking of adding scout bikes for a more mobile element to the force

 Brother Payne wrote:
I've given up on my black knights, unless you pour loads of points into supporting them with an ancient, Sammael, Talonmaster, Darkshroud, and maybe even apothecary, I've been find that they just don't pull their weight. I could see a list being build around two big blobs of 10 with all the support they need, but I can rely much more heavily on my semi-mobile Az gunline.

Aggressors and Hellblasters pull their weight every damn time. I currently run just 3 aggressors, and could see myself going for a second unit of 3, but I don't think I'd go any more than that. I'm thinking of adding scout bikes for a more mobile element to the force

my man what if i told you you can do both, and most of what supports the bikes also supports the primaris dudes.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Brother Payne wrote:
I've given up on my black knights, unless you pour loads of points into supporting them with an ancient, Sammael, Talonmaster, Darkshroud, and maybe even apothecary, I've been find that they just don't pull their weight. I could see a list being build around two big blobs of 10 with all the support they need, but I can rely much more heavily on my semi-mobile Az gunline.

Aggressors and Hellblasters pull their weight every damn time. I currently run just 3 aggressors, and could see myself going for a second unit of 3, but I don't think I'd go any more than that. I'm thinking of adding scout bikes for a more mobile element to the force

my man what if i told you you can do both, and most of what supports the bikes also supports the primaris dudes.

I'm listening

so i played a list last night against a pretty competitive AM player. Did very well against him. Agressors were the MVPs

BTW...yea i know its not pure DA

Dark Angels: Battalion

Azzy
Lieutenant: Plas Pist, Heaven Fall relic, Jump pack (Warlord: re-roll Advance)

3 scout squads

Bolter Aggressor squad : 5 guys
Bolter Aggressor squad : 5 guys
Company Ancient

Darkshroud
10 Hellblasters

Astra Milit: Cadian Battalion

Commander: Kurov's Aquila
Commander

3 Infantry squads

Supreme Command: Custodes

3 Shield Capts


The Aggressors/Hellblasters/Azzy/Lt/Dark Shroud and Ancient all Advanced up one side of the board to get into range.

This was a pretty nasty bubble. Turn 1 i was able to remove 50 infantry from the board. In turn 1 i forgot to use the strat that allowed me to advance and shoot my Hellblasters.

The rest of the game Infantry held enough objectives to either tie or hold more in ITC missions. Shield capts would help with that but also move up with the bubble and serve as counter assaulters against the bubble.

In the end i had 2 Hellblasters left and 1 squad of Aggressors with 4 guys. Lost the LT and 2 Shield capts , 2 squads of scouts and 1 AM infantry.

I pretty much had the remainder of the board with him being held in the corner of his deployment with his Basilisks 2, Wyverns 2, tank commander and pask the only things still alive.

The list does sort of struggle with long range Shooting Tanks.. and a good portion of this list was tough for me to deal with. In turn 3/4 i was able to engage a few tanks to get them to stop shooting. Bassys and Waverns did hurt my out of site troops holding objectives. But i was able to hold them.

Nice report, thanks for the insights. I think jetbike SCs are a great way to add mobility and punch to most imperium armies.

How come the JP on the LT?

I have had a ton of success with space wolves and dark angels mixed. Wolves I take a wolf Lord on thunderwolf, wolf guard battle leader on thunderwolf, 3x 5 bloodclaw squads, Lucas the trickster, and a stormwolf. I use the wolf and lion stratagem to give Lucas a major boost in cc abilities and a da lib loves the bonus to leadership, especially with some of our more "useful" powers.

My issue is the dark angels side of the list dies quickly. It's always targeted first (it's expected, I mean 4 plasma cannons in a dev squad from the dark angels is going to get targeted. ) but they continue to do their jobs of being such a huge threat my opponent ignores the wolves first turn (such a big mistake) and once those bloodclaws hit turn 2 it gets ugly.

Anyone have experience with a Stormraven? I want something like the stormwolf for my da's but it doesn't seem as survivable since it doesn't get hard to hit. Plus the idea of dropping a dreadnaught into my opponents lines makes me happy

Stormraven does get hard to hit. Bobby G lists used to rock them hard before the Fire Raptor came down in points (and the SR went up). I really want to get a Stormraven for my own Dark Angels, especially now that Dark Talons skyrocketed in price.

 zedsdead wrote:


This was a pretty nasty bubble. Turn 1 i was able to remove 50 infantry from the board. In turn 1 i forgot to use the strat that allowed me to advance and shoot my Hellblasters.

The rest of the game Infantry held enough objectives to either tie or hold more in ITC missions. Shield capts would help with that but also move up with the bubble and serve as counter assaulters against the bubble.

In the end i had 2 Hellblasters left and 1 squad of Aggressors with 4 guys. Lost the LT and 2 Shield capts , 2 squads of scouts and 1 AM infantry.

I pretty much had the remainder of the board with him being held in the corner of his deployment with his Basilisks 2, Wyverns 2, tank commander and pask the only things still alive.

The list does sort of struggle with long range Shooting Tanks.. and a good portion of this list was tough for me to deal with. In turn 3/4 i was able to engage a few tanks to get them to stop shooting. Bassys and Waverns did hurt my out of site troops holding objectives. But i was able to hold them.

What stratagem allows you to advance and fire Hellblasters? I'm not tracking one - the Ravenwing can use Speed of the Raven, but Hellblasters can't use that strat.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

 zedsdead wrote:


This was a pretty nasty bubble. Turn 1 i was able to remove 50 infantry from the board. In turn 1 i forgot to use the strat that allowed me to advance and shoot my Hellblasters.

The rest of the game Infantry held enough objectives to either tie or hold more in ITC missions. Shield capts would help with that but also move up with the bubble and serve as counter assaulters against the bubble.

In the end i had 2 Hellblasters left and 1 squad of Aggressors with 4 guys. Lost the LT and 2 Shield capts , 2 squads of scouts and 1 AM infantry.

I pretty much had the remainder of the board with him being held in the corner of his deployment with his Basilisks 2, Wyverns 2, tank commander and pask the only things still alive.

The list does sort of struggle with long range Shooting Tanks.. and a good portion of this list was tough for me to deal with. In turn 3/4 i was able to engage a few tanks to get them to stop shooting. Bassys and Waverns did hurt my out of site troops holding objectives. But i was able to hold them.

What stratagem allows you to advance and fire Hellblasters? I'm not tracking one - the Ravenwing can use Speed of the Raven, but Hellblasters can't use that strat.

Your correct i wrote that wrong... i realized after i advanced with the Hellblasters i couldnt use the strat and shoot making them unable to shoot the first turn.

Which brings up a point.... would i have been better off running a big squad of BKs instead of hellblasters ?
I still like running the HBs because they have a better plasma gun.. but the BKs are more mobile.
Actually i forgot the Assault version of the Plasma gun the HBs have. I wonder if this would be the better way to run them. This blob seems to want to "run and gun" alot more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Brother Payne wrote:
Nice report, thanks for the insights. I think jetbike SCs are a great way to add mobility and punch to most imperium armies.

How come the JP on the LT?

Yea.. i agree. if going pure i would run sammy and a TM instead but the SCs are far better in a competitive game.

The JP on the Lt has been great. He sticks around with the blob for most of the game and later he usually will jump out and take on small squads with the Heavenfall blade. Its performed very well in my games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Stormraven does get hard to hit. Bobby G lists used to rock them hard before the Fire Raptor came down in points (and the SR went up). I really want to get a Stormraven for my own Dark Angels, especially now that Dark Talons skyrocketed in price.

Still at 200 pts the DT is still great. I would still take 2 of them over the Stormraven. Not only that DTs can take advantage of strats.
I would only consider a SR if i wanted to transport a Chaplain Dread onto the field. Combine that with a Leviathan dread Deapstriking onto the field at the same time for a nasty suprise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Azuza001 wrote:
I have had a ton of success with space wolves and dark angels mixed. Wolves I take a wolf Lord on thunderwolf, wolf guard battle leader on thunderwolf, 3x 5 bloodclaw squads, Lucas the trickster, and a stormwolf. I use the wolf and lion stratagem to give Lucas a major boost in cc abilities and a da lib loves the bonus to leadership, especially with some of our more "useful" powers.

My issue is the dark angels side of the list dies quickly. It's always targeted first (it's expected, I mean 4 plasma cannons in a dev squad from the dark angels is going to get targeted. ) but they continue to do their jobs of being such a huge threat my opponent ignores the wolves first turn (such a big mistake) and once those bloodclaws hit turn 2 it gets ugly.

Anyone have experience with a Stormraven? I want something like the stormwolf for my da's but it doesn't seem as survivable since it doesn't get hard to hit. Plus the idea of dropping a dreadnaught into my opponents lines makes me happy

Yea it gets hard to hit... plus the darkshroud makes it even harder to hit. Drop in a Chaplain Dread.