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Don't forget the likely Beta Character rules that will mean Captains cant shield other Captains.

6 Captains is about the same cost as 1 captain + 9 Bikes. While the latter is, imo, much better. It has pretty much become the basic core from which I build Custodes lists.

10 bikes just puts so much pressure on the opponent.

I’ve been doing some soul-searching regarding the vexila for -1 to hit; basically in a pure custodes list how important is the banner (especially if it’s protecting already durable units like bikes). So I worked out the percentage of damage in a single shooting phase it blocks based on BS, to see at what point a 125 pt vexila praetor “saves his points”
BS2+ : blocks 20% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 625 points the banner is worth it.
BS3+ : blocks 25% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 500 points the banner is worth it.
BS4+ : blocks 33% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 375 points the banner is worth it.
BS5+ : blocks 50% of incoming shooting, if your opponent can kill 250 points the banner is worth it.

Obviously as BS decreases, the -1 reduces a greater percentage of shooting. The question really becomes at what point saving 1.5 bikes is better than just taking 1.5 more bikes...it’s going to depend on how long the aura is in effect and what weapons your opponent has. Note my math doesn’t include re-rolls, I’ll work those out later.

The value of aura buffs can be directly indexed to the number and cost of models covered, and indirectly indexed to the perceived target priority of the unit covered. The bikes score well on the second part (everyone wants to shoot them) and are also high per model cost. On the flip side they are fast and aren't likely to spend multiple turns getting where they need to go, and are also very durable even without the -1TH. Additionally, the vexila is likely only covering a small number of models.

Taking both sides of the argument into account I think the vexila is kinda meh for bikes. I'd rather have another bike and change. I'd be more tempted to use the vexila to cover ground pounding units that are going to spend a couple of turns getting where they need to go and taking shots while they do. That's my two cents anyway

There is also a stratagem to increase its range. I worked it out you can reliably have it for 3 turns on a good amount of your army. Not that you need to do that.

The problem is on turn 2-3 you most likely will need to split off, but you can have 2-3 turns with 6 bikes easily -1 and turn 1 all bikes -1.

For bikes the value is in turn 1 being in range for when your not going first. And you can have ~2 more units in range after movement by advancing and stringing the bikes back a little.

I can see that being worth 1 bike and change.

Oberron wrote:
/snip

I’m confused about the number of attacks you are getting. You start out comparing the cost of 5 wardens with that of 4 allarus, but then both units seem to attack as if there were just 3 of them.

Without doing the sums it seems obvious that wardens hand out more damage in melee. Their attacks are identical but they cost roughly 75% of the price of allarus. I’d expect them to do comparable damage with shooting, though to be honest neither unit is much good at that so it’s not a big deal either way.

Of course the regular bikers have better raw stats per points, but without the character rule and without the flexibility of moving off solo, they just aren't as good as taking multiple biker captains.

Granted having both captains and a biker squad is the best of both worlds. Stick em in a V formation with the rainment of sorrows on a captain who ride behind them, plus utilizing the strat that adds attacks for every guy who died makes the 10 man squad utterly devastating.


In general though, 5 biker captains at 820 points will outperform one biker squad at 900ish points, plus the captains give you a CP and relics.

The best list incorporating custodes that I've thrown together

5 Shield Captains with hurricane bolters

A Blood Angel Captain
Sanguinor
Sanguinairy preist
3 by 5 scouts

Pask in a plasmacutioner
Company commander
3 by 10 guardsmen
2 manticores

You get the beat sticks of shield captains, a slamguinious strike package with scout board presence and some heavy firepower with 10 command points

Roll with my here while my heads a stirring:

Custodes Battalion
2x Bike captains

2x 10 Custodes w/ 9 spears 1 Vexilla and 10 daggers each

1x 3 Custodes w/ spears

1x -1 to be hit Vexilla

AM Battalion

2x Company Commanders

6x 9 Infantry 1 Mortar

Considering fiddling with this idea. Using the index rules for replacement and giving the 10man squads a Vexilla and daggers each gives them a pretty terrifying amount of attacks, and could prove to be fun little death blobs.

stratigo wrote:
The best list incorporating custodes that I've thrown together

5 Shield Captains with hurricane bolters

A Blood Angel Captain
Sanguinor
Sanguinairy preist
3 by 5 scouts

Pask in a plasmacutioner
Company commander
3 by 10 guardsmen
2 manticores

You get the beat sticks of shield captains, a slamguinious strike package with scout board presence and some heavy firepower with 10 command points

Why the priest? Drop him and bring more guard or give them some toys?

BrianDavion wrote:deep striking bikes is a waste IMHO they move so fast. you're better off using the CPs to deep strike infantry (wardens or guard) into important areas. even if it's just dropping sword and board guard on a objective your opponent is pushing towards to tie them up

I disagree for 2 reasons

1. Turn 1 shooting. People will attack the bikes 100% of the time. Speed means nothing as even if you go first, you may not be in double tap range.
2. Deployment. Like I said my last 5 games have been hammer and anvil. You 100% want bikes in deepstrike as chances are they might get 2 turns of being shot before getting a charge/double tap.

Having bikes come down, even if not behind the enemy and getting all those shots when you want it is huge, along with then getting to charge.

No one shoots at your troops until all the bikes are dead

Primark G wrote:Culexus is almost mandatory IMO.

Agree. Army im fighting dependent, Id swap it out with a vindicare possibly but most of the time im running that just to stop smite and it really frustrates opponents

 Ordana wrote:
Don't forget the likely Beta Character rules that will mean Captains cant shield other Captains.

6 Captains is about the same cost as 1 captain + 9 Bikes. While the latter is, imo, much better. It has pretty much become the basic core from which I build Custodes lists.

10 bikes just puts so much pressure on the opponent.

As a side note. Are people actually taking numbers of bikes not divisible by three? It seems crazy to put 10 bikes in a list because at that point you're paying like sixty bucks for just the shield captain.

Sure. You take what you can fit and adjust accordingly. Sometimes you lose a single bike, maybe two, for a potentially better option.

See: taking an AM detachment over more bikes, etx

How often does anyone forget to use their misericordia?

 Primark G wrote:
How often does anyone forget to use their misericordia?

I'll raise my hand in guilty shame. Repeat offender here.

 Primark G wrote:
How often does anyone forget to use their misericordia?

Almost every time!

RogueApiary wrote:

 Ordana wrote:
Don't forget the likely Beta Character rules that will mean Captains cant shield other Captains.

6 Captains is about the same cost as 1 captain + 9 Bikes. While the latter is, imo, much better. It has pretty much become the basic core from which I build Custodes lists.

10 bikes just puts so much pressure on the opponent.

As a side note. Are people actually taking numbers of bikes not divisible by three? It seems crazy to put 10 bikes in a list because at that point you're paying like sixty bucks for just the shield captain.

Or I make a deal with someone else and he takes 1-2 bikes and I take the rest.

I base my armies off of what I think is best on the table. Not what is the most convenient to buy.

Here is a question if a Vexillus Praetor is in terminator armor he can only take a Misericordia - does he get his full compliment of attacks with it?

 Primark G wrote:
Here is a question if a Vexillus Praetor is in terminator armor he can only take a Misericordia - does he get his full compliment of attacks with it?

Full+1. Same as someone fighting with only a chainsword.

 Ordana wrote:

stratigo wrote:
The best list incorporating custodes that I've thrown together

5 Shield Captains with hurricane bolters

A Blood Angel Captain
Sanguinor
Sanguinairy preist
3 by 5 scouts

Pask in a plasmacutioner
Company commander
3 by 10 guardsmen
2 manticores

You get the beat sticks of shield captains, a slamguinious strike package with scout board presence and some heavy firepower with 10 command points

Why the priest? Drop him and bring more guard or give them some toys?

I originally took the slamguiniois package as supreme command with sang guard, then realized that I didn’t have any infiltrator board presence and retooled some things, but forgot to drop the preost

Brigade of AM plus 2 supreme commands of biker captains and one allaurus captain/w praetorian plate, plus a vexor with the -1 to hit banner is nastiest thing ive come up with.

14 command points stock with CP regen. You wont feel bad about spending 4 CP for relics netting you 1 free custodies relic, kurovs aquilla from AM, and 2 other custodies relics.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Brigade of AM plus 2 supreme commands of biker captains and one allaurus captain/w praetorian plate, plus a vexor with the -1 to hit banner is nastiest thing ive come up with.

14 command points stock with CP regen. You wont feel bad about spending 4 CP for relics netting you 1 free custodies relic, kurovs aquilla from AM, and 2 other custodies relics.

Assuming Beta character rules become official I would say an outrider detachment filled with bikes is better then 2 supreme commands of captains. 6 captain bikers is near enough the same cost as 1 captain and 3x3 bikes.

And thats 4 detachments

 Eihnlazer wrote:
Brigade of AM plus 2 supreme commands of biker captains and one allaurus captain/w praetorian plate, plus a vexor with the -1 to hit banner is nastiest thing ive come up with.

14 command points stock with CP regen. You wont feel bad about spending 4 CP for relics netting you 1 free custodies relic, kurovs aquilla from AM, and 2 other custodies relics.

I like it!

I can't decide if I believe an AM brigade is better than just a batallion with 2x 40 man strong Infantry using the 5++ Vexilla. If you cast the AM power on them and combine the squads, that's an 80 man 4++ morale immune blob.

How are you going to get all those guardsmen wholly within that is what I really wanna know.

You seem to drastically underestimate how large of an area 18" across, or 36" across if you burn a strat, really is. It's 9" from the model, meaning in any direction. You have plenty of space to jam 25mm bases.

Seems counter productive to me even if you can squeeze them all in.

It seems counter productive to produce a screen with a 5++ or potential 4++, which you can move around the table and issue orders to?

A screen you can protect captains behind, or use any other strategy with?

Never change, Primark.

Celestine can provide an invulnerable save as well but she is better used killing enemy units. Accordingly there are better uses for the banners IMO... but you should do what you want with them.