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Still nothing on fw? With all these points drops if fw low don't come back down to at least pre ca2018 levels I'm gonna snap. Especially considering that the rumour is raptors are still 15ppm.

I think, if these are true, there is going to be a lot of weapon cost changes in this book.

For example, if the Dark Lance drops, i expect the Bright Lance to do the same. If they are then cheaper than a Fusion Gun/Blaster, then i expect them to also drop slightly. Could also mean a slight drop in points for all melta type weapons across the board.

Dunno. I'd expect Deredeos and Leviathans to go up in points, or Butcher Cannons.

Sunny Side Up wrote:
Dunno. I'd expect Deredeos and Leviathans to go up in points, or Butcher Cannons.

The base model cost could still increase, as we've only seen nothing happening to Butcher Cannons.

 Burnage wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmm. Hellions down 2 is nice. Dark Lance down to 10pts also means I can take them on kabs without feeling like a dingus.

-5 on a Dark Lance only puts it at 15 points. Better, but very weird that it's apparently going to be cheaper than a Blaster.

Well, it get's a minus one on the Kabalites. And it would balance out the 10 points base increase on the Razorwings, meaning the Dark Lance version stays the same, while the Disintegrator version goes up.

 Burnage wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Hmm. Hellions down 2 is nice. Dark Lance down to 10pts also means I can take them on kabs without feeling like a dingus.

-5 on a Dark Lance only puts it at 15 points. Better, but very weird that it's apparently going to be cheaper than a Blaster.

To be fair the Blaster is more useful as it is not a heavy weapon. Scourges get a -1 to hit landing with Dark Light but not with blasters. Now I feel like less of an idiot owning 4 Dark Lance Scourges.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Friend sent me this. Not sure if this is legit:
Spiritseers -10
Wraithblades Axe Shield -10
Wraithknight -45
Wraithlords -5

Please tell me this is legit.

if it is, i will totally cream myself

I always dreamed of a competitive ghost elf army.

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

MiguelFelstone wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Friend sent me this. Not sure if this is legit:
Spiritseers -10
Wraithblades Axe Shield -10
Wraithknight -45
Wraithlords -5

Please tell me this is legit.

if it is, i will totally cream myself

I always dreamed of a competitive ghost elf army.

This is exactly where I'm sitting right now. 380ish points for the suncannon/starcannon wraithknight might just get me to bring it out, plus hemlocks and my axe guard (which I've been playing anyway, even at 225pts for 5).

Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

MiguelFelstone wrote:

I always dreamed of a competitive ghost elf army.

Me too, but ultimately that would require wraith troops.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

Tbf we have a very small fraction of armies so far. Eldar, sw, ba and a bit of nids and gsc ranged weapons so far.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

No leaks.

Most people leaking don't seem to care about any xenos stuff.

Does ignoring xenos count as proof that the leaks were an inside job orchestrated by GW?

Lemondish wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

No leaks.

Most people leaking don't seem to care about any xenos stuff.

Does ignoring xenos count as proof that the leaks were an inside job orchestrated by GW?

I think it is more that those who are leaking are just leaking their respective armies. The Aeldari stuff I have seen has come from Aeldari players/groups mostly.

Lemondish wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

No leaks.

Most people leaking don't seem to care about any xenos stuff.

Does ignoring xenos count as proof that the leaks were an inside job orchestrated by GW?

Except for all 3 Eldar and part of nids and gsc? 5/8 xeno armies?

the_scotsman wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

No leaks.

Most people leaking don't seem to care about any xenos stuff.

Does ignoring xenos count as proof that the leaks were an inside job orchestrated by GW?

Except for all 3 Eldar and part of nids and gsc? 5/8 xeno armies?

They didn't care about 'em. I could tell. Because otherwise my gakky joke wouldn't be funny.

the_scotsman wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
Any ORKS leaks anywhere or are our points adjustments to be saved for PA4?

Tbf we have a very small fraction of armies so far. Eldar, sw, ba and a bit of nids and gsc ranged weapons so far.

Thank you sir.

Lemondish wrote:
Does ignoring xenos count as proof that the leaks were an inside job orchestrated by GW?

*Readjusts tinfoil hat*
Yes.

I’m trying to figure out the cost of plague marines. Did they not get any points drop?

In all seriousness An Actual Englishman, you're about the only person I know who played orks as much as I did before I stopped playing. Were grots OP? I played them a few times in January just to get myself some CP (because everything else the Orks had was so expensive that I couldn't fit boyz in to get the CP in my kult of speed army). When I played them they just got squished off the board without a seconds notice... didn't even get to use the grot shield as the opponent knew about it and spent a small fraction of his weapons dealing with the grots first.

Just seems rather dumb decision to make them the same points value as a guardsman especially as they can't even use anything from the Ork codex. We've had grot rumours for years now and they have never done it, would be crazy if they did it now out of all times, when they can't even be effected by anything we have! Pretty sure they've been 3pts for longer than I can remember (if my 3rd edition memory is correct), so to change it now would be an insult to ork players everywhere.

There is a basic value for just a wound and taking space on the table because the game is won in no small parts by controlling space on the table and expending resources into removing wounds from the opponent's army.

Grots were arguably below that.

Armies with 200 or 300 Grots were super-powerful. It's just not something you really see often outside of things like ETC because of the time commitment and because it is a miserable experience "to play" (even playing is even the right word).

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There is a basic value for just a wound and taking space on the table because the game is won in no small parts by controlling space on the table and expending resources into removing wounds from the opponent's army.

Grots were arguably below that.

Armies with 200 or 300 Grots were super-powerful. It's just not something you really see often outside of things like ETC because of the time commitment and because it is a miserable experience "to play" (even playing is even the right word).

I've never seen a 200-300 grot army take a trophy home... to increase their points to guard level though... think about that. It's not right... especially after 20+ years of them being happily sat at 3pts.

Edit: Also think about this... you're increasing their points because of the slim possibility someone out there might win with them when they take 300 of them? So let's punish 90% of players who just take a few squads? this is ridiculous, I can't believe these rumours.

 lolman1c wrote:
In all seriousness An Actual Englishman, you're about the only person I know who played orks as much as I did before I stopped playing. Were grots OP? I played them a few times in January just to get myself some CP (because everything else the Orks had was so expensive that I couldn't fit boyz in to get the CP in my kult of speed army). When I played them they just got squished off the board without a seconds notice... didn't even get to use the grot shield as the opponent knew about it and spent a small fraction of his weapons dealing with the grots first.

Just seems rather dumb decision to make them the same points value as a guardsman especially as they can't even use anything from the Ork codex. We've had grot rumours for years now and they have never done it, would be crazy if they did it now out of all times, when they can't even be effected by anything we have! Pretty sure they've been 3pts for longer than I can remember (if my 3rd edition memory is correct), so to change it now would be an insult to ork players everywhere.

No man. Your assessment is correct. There's no reason for Grots to be 4ppm, unless we see a reshuffle (upwards) of every other unit in the game. As you've said, comparing a Grot to a Guardsman, or even a Conscript, only highlights how much they should actually cost.

E - I've seen no competitive list with 200+ Grots ever. I don't think it exists. That is not a legitimate reason if this nerf is true.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

E - I've seen no competitive list with 200+ Grots ever. I don't think it exists. That is not a legitimate reason if this nerf is true.

Grots in the current competitive environment are being used to fill cheap detachments. For reasons I can only scratch my head at, GW only seems to want Guard to be able to do that. It's not that Grots are worth 4ppm, it's that the CP from Battalions are worth a minimum points cost. It's the exact same reason that Cultists, despite also being worse than Guardsmen in every way, were brought up to 5ppm. Now they're going back down to 4ppm, again for unknown reasons.

My guess is that GW is moving forward now saying "if a model is around the strength of a Cultist, it should be 4ppm, because players are taking them to fill required slots". I wouldn't be surprised if we see Neophyte Hybrids going down to 4ppm. In fact, it would make me VERY happy if they did!

 lolman1c wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There is a basic value for just a wound and taking space on the table because the game is won in no small parts by controlling space on the table and expending resources into removing wounds from the opponent's army.

Grots were arguably below that.

Armies with 200 or 300 Grots were super-powerful. It's just not something you really see often outside of things like ETC because of the time commitment and because it is a miserable experience "to play" (even playing is even the right word).

I've never seen a 200-300 grot army take a trophy home... to increase their points to guard level though... think about that. It's not right... especially after 20+ years of them being happily sat at 3pts.

Edit: Also think about this... you're increasing their points because of the slim possibility someone out there might win with them when they take 300 of them? So let's punish 90% of players who just take a few squads? this is ridiculous, I can't believe these rumours.

That isn't why, its a side effect.

The cost is going up because at their current points, they're metagame manipulators, that mess with the systems- particularly force organization, stratagems and CP. They're an easy way to break the basic game systems (partly because those systems aren't very robust and are very prone to manipulation.

Also, partly because its GW, they're going up because GW doesn't like the 'feel' of grot heavy armies. They think ork armies should be mostly orks and the easy way of dealing with this in a functional way (have grots not count as troop selections) apparently didn't occur to them. So they're changing the only value they can manipulate.

Oh cool we're doing the multi-page argument about an unconfirmed rumour again.

 xttz wrote:
Oh cool we're doing the multi-page argument about an unconfirmed rumour again.

When there are actual leaks to discuss!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

E - I've seen no competitive list with 200+ Grots ever. I don't think it exists. That is not a legitimate reason if this nerf is true.

I'm absolutly not for a nerf for grots but team USA played a list with 180+ grots at ETC 2019. I think it was played before in other non ETC
Team events. I'm not sure it was played a all in solo events.

Surprised that Lords Discordant have remained the same, I would have bet money on them going up. Other posts from people that claim to have seen the book include Obliterators now being priced at 95 points per model, which is a real boon. Cheaper Cultists & Possessed are also fantastic. Now they just need to release a new Possessed squad...

 lolman1c wrote:

Sunny Side Up wrote:
There is a basic value for just a wound and taking space on the table because the game is won in no small parts by controlling space on the table and expending resources into removing wounds from the opponent's army.

Grots were arguably below that.

Armies with 200 or 300 Grots were super-powerful. It's just not something you really see often outside of things like ETC because of the time commitment and because it is a miserable experience "to play" (even playing is even the right word).

I've never seen a 200-300 grot army take a trophy home... to increase their points to guard level though... think about that. It's not right... especially after 20+ years of them being happily sat at 3pts.

Edit: Also think about this... you're increasing their points because of the slim possibility someone out there might win with them when they take 300 of them? So let's punish 90% of players who just take a few squads? this is ridiculous, I can't believe these rumours.

/shrug

Most nerfs are based on a handful of people finding the most abusive combinations and the rest just has to live with it. 99% of Ynnari players never won a trophy and didn't pull weird Shining Spear combos either. They are now all sitting with the Drukhari-Harlequins-Craftworld-miniatures-bits-swapped-and-painted-to-match hobby projects GW promoted hard in 2016 collecting dust.

Shaelinith wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

E - I've seen no competitive list with 200+ Grots ever. I don't think it exists. That is not a legitimate reason if this nerf is true.

I'm absolutly not for a nerf for grots but team USA played a list with 180+ grots at ETC 2019. I think it was played before in other non ETC
Team events. I'm not sure it was played a all in solo events.

They did, we played against it at ATC. Our Tau got paired up with, and it was just an absolute monster in terms of board control. End of the game, he had something like 10 models left of his 200+, and still won the game, because the Tau player had zero opportunity to get control of the board.

Can we stay on topic and discuss actual leaks? I really do not want another 3 page discussions about grots/Guardsmen.