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Maybe I haven't been browsing the same threads as you. Although I even enjoyed the Stelek wars of times past. And basically all the other drama that goes on here. Adds a little spice to my rumour mongering.
All I need now is for Stonefox to show up and be scathing about gamers in a hilarious way and Triggerbaby to come out with something unexpectadly hilarious and I'd be a happy bunny.
(I'm completely off topic right now. Better say something about Guard.)
I cannot believe GW don't consider KP an issue. It's so obviously the biggest single issue influencing army design in 5th.

LoL....
Yes Back on Topic... we shall take the higher road and try shall we?

Agreed, Kp is the biggest design flaw in 5th. Im hopeing that the rumor that they didnt fix it holds no base in fact.

Isn't it about bloody time the damned thing was leaked? I'm actually worried about the release schedule since Orks, Chaos, etc all had three months out in the wild before "release".

Da Boss wrote:And after 29 pages of discussion, surely it's time for a flamefest?

29 pages is good, isn't it usually by page 5 or so?

jp400 wrote:Why?
He isnt the one that goes out of his way to start the fight in the first place.

Wait, why do I care what you of all people say? Your just as bad on these forums.

Figures you would side with the troll. lol.

And Im done and moveing on.

Have a Nice day.

The big mans sycophant shows up to shout at everyone after he runs home. I start fights with (disagree with him, I guess its a fight whenever someone says the guy on the soapbox handing out pamphlets is wrong) him because he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.

Well after donuts and fights... i really think we ought to get back onto the TITLE OF THIS THREAD

What do you guys think the large number of tank choices will do to guard armies?

Will it be wild for a few months then settle down to about 2-3 choices that are unanimously effective, Or will we have a plethora of choice, all of which are competitive.

BTW-anyone notice that the priest actually has a save now!!!!! It means nothing because he's still going to be a bad choice but, well i wont have to pay that extra 5 points to give him a save!

ShumaGorath wrote:The big mans sycophant shows up to shout at everyone after he runs home. I start fights with (disagree with him, I guess its a fight whenever someone says the guy on the soapbox handing out pamphlets is wrong) him because he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.

Yes, damn him for suggesting that it would be in GW's best interests to let you use many of a new unit. Obviously you are the head of GW, and only YOU know why GW does what it does. And why not leave it be and have everyone use chimeras? Other than the fact that the chimera is a tired old model, costs less than the Valkyrie, and everyone already has chimeras, there is no reason for GW to make Valkyries more available. And damn all those people that think you are an idiot, they are just trying to suck up to HBMC and don't have opinions of their own. I guess you have this discussion pretty much wrapped up, congrats!

Lets argue about something that really cant be confirmed except by GW itself and then argue about arguing that.

Anyway, some of the tanks dont seem like much more than gimmicks to me unless the costs are different.

Is anyone else worried about traffic jams with valkries? Its bad enough to run mechanized and a Valk has a bigger footprint than a chimera.

ShumaGorath wrote: he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.

Now normally I avoid drama but I have to defend HBMC in this case.

There was absolutely no reason in the entire world to allow 6 Carnifexes (Carnifices? Carnifii?) into a Tyranid list, except for the fact that it would make them money.

Contrary to what most of us would like to think, Gee-Dubya is not stupid. Not even close. Who's the first one to go out and buy a ^&4* load of stuff? The power gamers.

So, they release models with very good rules, and the ability to take a lot of them. It's not rocket science, it's something that even a 6th grader with even a rudimentary grasp of business could figure out.

Make stuff with good rules, and allow a lot of them, and that's a recipe for success, aka $$$.

In contrast, there's little reason to give really good rules to something like Guardsmen who've probably made up their costs already.

So, in conclusion, if Valkyries have good rules, and you can take a lot of them, well, you're going to make big $$$.

-Vlad

Vladsimpaler wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote: he blankly states incorrect things as truth. That sticks in my craw.

Now normally I avoid drama but I have to defend HBMC in this case.

There was absolutely no reason in the entire world to allow 6 Carnifexes (Carnifices? Carnifii?) into a Tyranid list, except for the fact that it would make them money.

Contrary to what most of us would like to think, Gee-Dubya is not stupid. Not even close. Who's the first one to go out and buy a ^&4* load of stuff? The power gamers.

So, they release models with very good rules, and the ability to take a lot of them. It's not rocket science, it's something that even a 6th grader with even a rudimentary grasp of business could figure out.

Make stuff with good rules, and allow a lot of them, and that's a recipe for success, aka $$$.

In contrast, there's little reason to give really good rules to something like Guardsmen who've probably made up their costs already.

So, in conclusion, if Valkyries have good rules, and you can take a lot of them, well, you're going to make big $$$.

-Vlad

Except they are releasing a dozen other models with it. The carnifex was released as a wave. Why did everything else in that book suck? Where are all the lovely biovores? All those raveners? Broodlords? Zoanthropes? What's the point of a new warrior kit when no one needs synapse? Sorry but no, overpowering the carnifex was bad for business and harmed the metagame. It also harmed the overall sales of all other tyranid models. I know people that quit the army (I quit playing tyranids) because of crap like that. Besides, that wasn't his point. His point was that it was a brand spanking new plastic kit, and because of the mold cost they decided to allow IG forces to take a million of them. It doesn't make sense. If someone has 200 dollars to spend on an army what difference does it make if he spends it buying six valks or 2 russes, a valk a chimera and some heavy weapons teams? Its the same expenditure. Its the same amount of money. An even and balanced game system sells more models.

You want to know why people can take six valks? It's pretty obvious. Here I'll help you.

How many landraiders can you take?
How many devilfish can you take?
How many battlewagons can you take?
How many rhinos can you take?
How many drop pods can you take?
How many Truks can you take?
How many raiders can you take?
How many chimera can you take?
How many wave serpants can you take?


It's a transport. You can take a lot of every single transport in the game.

So, they release models with very good rules, and the ability to take a lot of them. It's not rocket science, it's something that even a 6th grader with even a rudimentary grasp of business could figure out.

A five year old will tell you that heavy things fall faster. Just because its the simplest answer doesn't make it correct.

Yes, damn him for suggesting that it would be in GW's best interests to let you use many of a new unit. Obviously you are the head of GW, and only YOU know why GW does what it does. And why not leave it be and have everyone use chimeras? Other than the fact that the chimera is a tired old model, costs less than the Valkyrie, and everyone already has chimeras, there is no reason for GW to make Valkyries more available. And damn all those people that think you are an idiot, they are just trying to suck up to HBMC and don't have opinions of their own. I guess you have this discussion pretty much wrapped up, congrats!

Its in their interest not to be flippant and random with rulings and points costs. Its in their interest not to be stupid with force organization. Its in their interest to create a sustainable and enjoyable game that doesn't fall into a series of powergamers with identical armies. Sorry, but I'm not an idiot. I just don't point my finger and cry evil business every time a new model release comes out. It's not going to be heavily limited because its not a main battle tank or a small niche unit. Its a basic troop transport.

Get the hell over yourselves.

I think you guys are talking past each other.

ShumaGorath's point seems to be that GW wouldn't intentionally overpower a unit just to sell a lot of it, since GW is sophisticated enough to realize that that's actually a bad business decision if looked at from a holistic "health of the game" perspective.

HBMC seems to be saying that the fact that GW decided to release a plastic Valkyrie suggests that the IG Codex allows you to take a lot of them.

I think you're both right. I'm not expecting the Valkyrie to be horribly overpowered. I am expecting that you will have the option to take a lot of them. The decision to release a model in plastic suggests that the sales guys believe it will sell enough to justify the high initial costs of creating a plastic mold.

Dave47 wrote:I think you guys are talking past each other.

ShumaGorath's point seems to be that GW wouldn't intentionally overpower a unit just to sell a lot of it, since GW is sophisticated enough to realize that that's actually a bad business decision if looked at from a holistic "health of the game" perspective.

HBMC seems to be saying that the fact that GW decided to release a plastic Valkyrie suggests that the IG Codex allows you to take a lot of them.

I think you're both right. I'm not expecting the Valkyrie to be horribly overpowered. I am expecting that you will have the option to take a lot of them. The decision to release a model in plastic suggests that the sales guys believe it will sell enough to justify the high initial costs of creating a plastic mold.

HBMC's post was based off of a bell of lost souls rumor about all guard squads that can take chimeras being able to take valkyries. He was then justifying the use of plastic with that, rather then the fact that a metal model would be impossible. But yeah, that was basically my point. That and the fact that every transport tank in the game can be taken en masse.

I'd like to think GW isn't going to release another Thunderfire Cannon in the Valk. More like another Drop Pod. It would totally make sense if the Valk utterly deprecates the Chimera, saleswise.

But then again, these blokes probably though the Thunderfire was brokenly good.

So who knows. They might be planning exactly what HBMC says, but they have at least even odds of screwing it up anyway.

Look at Codex Deamons:
Plague Bearers: Old Metal
Horrors: Old Metal
Bloodletters: New Plastic
Daemonettes: New Plastic

They probably thought 'nettes were broken even though they KNEW they were going to nerf rending. Hell, they were overpriced in 4th edition. Or did they just make the investment just to de-boobify then product line?

Its in their interest not to be flippant and random with rulings and points costs. Its in their interest not to be stupid with force organization. Its in their interest to create a sustainable and enjoyable game that doesn't fall into a series of powergamers with identical armies. Sorry, but I'm not an idiot. I just don't point my finger and cry evil business every time a new model release comes out. It's not going to be heavily limited because its not a main battle tank or a small niche unit. Its a basic troop transport.

GW is known to be pretty stupid when it comes to unit costs. Some are terrible, while some are great. Sometimes it's really obvious that they want to push a unit, and other new units don't get pushed. Usually they push the big fancy plastic kits, and let you get tons of them. If the Valkyrie got rules but was still a very expensive model, then GW probably wouldn't bother trying to push it. I'm not crying and saying that GW is being evil, it just makes sense that their latest big thing is able to be used as much as possible.
The Valkyrie isn't just a basic troop transport like the chimera, it is used for all units by very specialized regiments like the elysians, and stormtrooper units only in most guard forces. It isn't some ubiquitous tank like the chimera that every regiment has a million of, and odds are if GW wants you to be able to take them everywhere the fact that it will help their new awesome kit was a big factor. I don't care if GW pushes the valkyrie, I won't be getting any, and I think it would be cool to be able to make an elysian army from the standard codex.

hey probably thought 'nettes were broken even though they KNEW they were going to nerf rending. Hell, they were overpriced in 4th edition. Or did they just make the investment just to de-boobify then product line?

That one always confused me. The horrors and plaguebearers are much better. They would sell in much higher volumes. Yet they chose to redo the bloodletter and deamonette. I suspect it was to de boobify the line like you say, its a publicly traded company. Honestly though, if they were going to push big important plastic kits to sell a tonne one would think they would choose the obvious and probably high selling popular troop units.

The Valkyrie isn't just a basic troop transport like the chimera, it is used for all units by very specialized regiments like the elysians, and stormtrooper units only in most guard forces.

It's pretty damn common. One of, if not the single most common aircraft the IG utilize if I'm not mistaken. It seems rare only because aircraft are so rare in a game about ground combat. It's basically their version of a transport helicopter, it's pretty prevalent in the books and artwork.

Besides, the elysians don't get to have a book. The landraider isn't common at all, nor is the battlewagon. But the books are designed to allow for a large number of forces to be represented. If you're army doesn't use any then don't use them. Not all IG regiments have access to ground vehicles, or significant use for them. Not all have snipers. It's about making the army you want to make.

Usually they push the big fancy plastic kits, and let you get tons of them.

Not always. There are a significant number that can't be taken en masse. The ironclad doesn't even have a model yet. Nor did the battlewagon until a short time ago.

If the Valkyrie got rules but was still a very expensive model, then GW probably wouldn't bother trying to push it. I'm not crying and saying that GW is being evil, it just makes sense that their latest big thing is able to be used as much as possible.

If this was some sort of new heavy tank kit or something that would make sense. But seriously. If it was limited it would be the games only transport to be limited in such a way. You guys are using the wrong model to push up your theories. It already has significant and important reasons why it should be numerous and plastic. Game balance and force organization reasons. This isn't a tonne of carnifexes or a million dreadnauts. This is just adding a (really quite) common unit into the book in the numbers it always supposedly existed in.

It's pretty damn common. One of, if not the single most common aircraft the IG utilize if I'm not mistaken.

I have only seen the Valkyrie used once in a black library book out of about a dozen, and it was being used by a specialized air assault guard regiment. The lexicanum wiki seems to support me in saying that the valkyrie is "used to ferry Special Forces Infantry units such as Storm Trooper Squads and Drop Troop Regiments such as the Elysian Drop Troops to and from combat zones."

Besides, the elysians don't get to have a book. The landraider isn't common at all, nor is the battlewagon. But the books are designed to allow for a large number of forces to be represented. If you're army doesn't use any then don't use them. Not all IG regiments have access to ground vehicles, or significant use for them. Not all have snipers. It's about making the army you want to make.

Right, I don't think that it would be a good idea to devote a full book to elysians. They're just not that different than standard guard. But as you say here,

Not always. There are a significant number that can't be taken en masse. The ironclad doesn't even have a model yet. Nor did the battlewagon until a short time ago.

Then why not put the valkyrie in last book, where it did not have a model? It would have been just like the battlewagon and ironclad, and I bet you would not be able to take a valkyrie on every unit then. Do you think that they would put the valkyrie in this book without releasing a model for it? Do you really think that the big new model had nothing to do with being able to take them everywhere?

have only seen the Valkyrie used once in a black library book out of about a dozen, and it was being used by a specialized air assault guard regiment. The lexicanum wiki seems to support me in saying that the valkyrie is "used to ferry Special Forces Infantry units such as Storm Trooper Squads and Drop Troop Regiments such as the Elysian Drop Troops to and from combat zones."

They are ridiculously common in the IA fluff and in aeronautica imperialis. They are the premiere infantry support vtol craft in the IG. Its going to be very common. As for specialist units, that would make sense. Air transport is much more useful when it comes to moving squads around for covert work.

Besides drop troop regiments can have dozens of such vehicles. And are pretty damn common in every imperial warzone. Every guard force utilizes them, its a combined arms military.

Then why not put the valkyrie in last book, where it did not have a model? It would have been just like the battlewagon and ironclad, and I bet you would not be able to take a valkyrie on every unit then. Do you think that they would put the valkyrie in this book without releasing a model for it? Do you really think that the big new model had nothing to do with being able to take them everywhere?

I do. It wasn't in the last book because it's never been in a book before. The last book honestly didn't have a lot in it. Before that it removed several tanks that were produced and that people owned. During third edition GW had a policy of cutting back on choices. It was trying to move away from the bloat of second edition. With the last few codexes though it looks like they are reversing that stance and are loading the books up with tonnes of everything.

Besides. You can take six ironclads. Where is the ironclad? They are about to release a tonne of new tanks. Where are they all? They pushed the land speeder storm months before it came out for sale (and you can have six, just like all major troop transports). The valk is a big selling point in apocalypse and is a "new face" for the codex, of course its getting hyped. Its the most visible of the new models in the line and its the one that will make the most people buy new armies (which makes them a hell of a lot more money than a few extra transports sold).

My plan is, if the Kill Points issue is not resolved in the new Guard codex, I'm not going to build a new Guard army. I'll bulk up my Isengard army instead. Actually I might do that anyhow, War of the Ring looks pretty damn good..

At this point, this thread has gotten pretty far off-topic from talking about the reference sheet and instead has devolved into an argument about whether or not GW intentionally designs their rules in order to sell their new plastic kits or not.

And at 30 pages, this thread has become pretty much impossible for someone interested in the topic to actually discuss the original topic anyway.

So I'm going to go ahead and lock it.