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Glaive Company CO wrote:Why in the hell are these two units worth an equal amount of KP's!?

Because Alessio's head starts to hurt when he counts numbers higher than 8?
Because people claim that VP's were confusing and complicated (but yet thse same people can make an army list...)?
Because this game is supposed to be quick and friendly and for casual games whereas tournament gamers are evil people who secretly wish death on everyone?

Who knows!!??!!

But as long as a 10-man unit of Chosen is worth as much as a min-sized units of Grots, 40K will have this problem. Giving Guard the option of mushing all their units together into single blobs of men will not fix this problem, it will only further highlight it.

BYE

Glaive Company CO wrote:I think the problem lies in the KP rules themselves.

No truer words have been spoken in this thread.

Shep, I disagree with your theories in general and think that the basic IG trooper is going to be more of a factor than ever. To be fair, though, my local group plays VPs, not KPs, so we don't care about playing/building lists in accordance with a rule that is quite frankly broken.

I think it's because no one at GW played guard so they didn't know that KPs were broken. I mean, didn't they have to hire some new kid to do the codex?

You are such a fething bore Shummy. This isn't about rules and overpowering and all that other crap. Pay attention.

Yes, clearly. Because you've never made that claim before. Especially in reference to carnifexes.

I'm actually not suggesting that they're going to overpower it. What I'm suggesting is that their biggest new plastic kit will be made available to as many units as possible so that people can buy lots of them if they want them, just like Tyranid players were suddenly allowed to buy loads of Carnifexes and use them all at once/Dragons all at once/Stegadons all at once.

Sorry, I think I let our previous arguments color how I read this. Though I still believe that your plastic conspiracy is an unneeded angle here. It's not like they were going to make it out of anything else, so you could just say "New hyped kit gets to be used a lot". Considering its a transport tank I'm really fairly certain it has little to do with the urge to sell models as much as its the fact that you can take tons of any transport tank. Five land raiders, five battlewagons, a billion chimeras, two billion wave serpents, enough rhinos to fill an ocean, etc. The carnifex is the tyranids big convertible plastic model, they don't get tanks. It is their big tank, it's also uneconomical to make it out of metal given the large number of optional parts (metal models rarely have a lot of options due to material cost and inevitable waste).

I just think your finding conspiracy in coincidence (plastic model and high use) and logical pairing (plastic model and tank).

Because people claim that VP's were confusing and complicated (but yet thse same people can make an army list...)?

They were confusing and complicated, and they were really really easy to cheat your opponent with. I don't mean denying VPs I mean lying about point totals and upgrade costs. It required immense scrutiny of army lists to make sure people were on the level (even if they werent cheating it was pretty easy to make mistakes, I've done it before). A slow and complicated system got replaced by a simple, fast, and unbalanced one. It's kind of a suck tradeoff, I'm still betting that there will be something somewhere that helps IG deal with kill points. We still don't have the book and I prefer to be optimistic. As it is all previous fifth edition codexes have good ways of dealing with KPs.

It's not just Guard that KPs are broken for. Consider, for example, the KP advantage granted by Nob Bikers...

ShumaGorath wrote:Sorry, I think I let our previous arguments color how I read this. Though I still believe that your plastic conspiracy is an unneeded angle here. It's not like they were going to make it out of anything else, so you could just say "New hyped kit gets to be used a lot". Considering its a transport tank I'm really fairly certain it has little to do with the urge to sell models as much as its the fact that you can take tons of any transport tank. Five land raiders, five battlewagons, a billion chimeras, two billion wave serpents, enough rhinos to fill an ocean, etc. The carnifex is the tyranids big convertible plastic model, they don't get tanks. It is their big tank, it's also uneconomical to make it out of metal given the large number of optional parts (metal models rarely have a lot of options due to material cost and inevitable waste).

I just think your finding conspiracy in coincidence (plastic model and high use) and logical pairing (plastic model and tank).

See: Hive Tyrant. Metal model (plastic accessories), and only 2/army.

I personally think HBMC is right here. Making a plastic kit, particularly one as complex as a tank, costs GW a pretty fair chunk of change. They have every reason to make sure it is well-received and heavily purchased, and that includes making it as widely available in the army list as possible, and giving it rules that are going to incentivize its use.

To oversimplify: if you're going to create a supply of something new, you'd do well to create as large a demand as possible. When you control the rules, you can make that demand fairly compelling.

ShumaGorath wrote:

HBMC wrote:Because people claim that VP's were confusing and complicated (but yet thse same people can make an army list...)?

They were confusing and complicated, and they were really really easy to cheat your opponent with. I don't mean denying VPs I mean lying about point totals and upgrade costs. It required immense scrutiny of army lists to make sure people were on the level (even if they werent cheating it was pretty easy to make mistakes, I've done it before). A slow and complicated system got replaced by a simple, fast, and unbalanced one. It's kind of a suck tradeoff, I'm still betting that there will be something somewhere that helps IG deal with kill points. We still don't have the book and I prefer to be optimistic. As it is all previous fifth edition codexes have good ways of dealing with KPs.

If someone is willing to cheat, they're just as likely to do it during list creation (which uses the SAME VP system) as they are during post-battle wrap-up.

Also, I'll point you at Fetterkey's post: Nob Bikers aren't a "good way of dealing with KPs" - they're representative of the other side of the problem.

Fetterkey wrote:It's not just Guard that KPs are broken for. Consider, for example, the KP advantage granted by Nob Bikers...

Nob bikers shouldn't exist and were an idiotic oversight, I don't think you can use that to color the IGs killpoint issues. No army looks good next to them. Nob bikers are broken within the game system. Period. They would be just as good in the previous editions VP rules considering if you've killed both squads you've wiped out their army anyway. They are a basket full of eggs. A basket that is going to kill you really really hard and is basically indestructible.

Dark Eldar get hosed with KP's too, but IG get it right up the shoot with no lube.

Guard start with 10 KP's, every other amry starts with 3. That is stupid beyond stupidity.

I personally think HBMC is right here. Making a plastic kit, particularly one as complex as a tank, costs GW a pretty fair chunk of change. They have every reason to make sure it is well-received and heavily purchased, and that includes making it as widely available in the army list as possible, and giving it rules that are going to incentivize its use.

Making a metal tank would cost more, the mold would be cheaper but the actual cost of materials (A tank has a hell of a lot more mass than a hive tyrants torso and legs and metal is far more expensive than plastic). Not to mention the weight of the tank, AND THE FACT THAT ITS ON A GOD DAMN FLYING BASE preclude the use of metal.



Seriously, when was the last time they made an all metal tank?

Steam Tank?

ShumaGorath wrote:Seriously, when was the last time they made an all metal tank?

Ozymandias wrote:Steam Tank?

Yup. I've even got one.

Though it doesn't come with a flying base...

Ozymandias wrote:Steam Tank?

Yeah, didn't think of that one. Ok, so we've got steam tank vs every other tank they've made in the last decade.

Though it doesn't come with a flying base...

Just imagine the horrors winged tyrants on flying bases pose. The steam tank is a third the size of the valk.

ShumaGorath wrote:Making a metal tank would cost more, the mold would be cheaper but the actual cost of materials (A tank has a hell of a lot more mass than a hive tyrants torso and legs and metal is far more expensive than plastic). Not to mention the weight of the tank, AND THE FACT THAT ITS ON A GOD DAMN FLYING BASE preclude the use of metal.

Seriously, when was the last time they made an all metal tank?

Massive Red Herring here Shummy. It's got nothing to do with metal tanks and you damn well know it, especially given that GW is moving away from metal and towards plastic.

As I said, and Janthink said, it is in their best interests to make it possible for players to purchase multiples of their newest kits. Plastic kits aren't cheap, so if they can sell a lot of them, they make their money back quicker, so they make them available in more places than they previously were ('Fex, Stegadon), or simply allow lots of units to take them if its a new unit (Valk).

Hell, they've even gone and invented a new unit just to allow even more Valks in an army (the Vendetta). It just wouldn't make sense for them to go out of their way to make a completely new unit in plastic and not allow people to buy lots of it. "Guess what kids - we've got a great plastic Stegadon to replace the old icky metal one. It's easy to put together, convert, looks great and is fun to use! BUT YOU CAN ONLY EVER HAVE ONE! RAR!!!!"

There's no conspiracy theory, it's a company wanting to open up as many avenues of sale as possible, and by allowing anyone to use it, they open up those avenues. How is this a bad thing?

BYE

ShumaGorath wrote:Just imagine the horrors winged tyrants on flying bases pose.

My buddy has one. If you want to give him a good shock, pick it up by the dragon wings...

ShumaGorath wrote:The steam tank is a third the size of the valk.

Yeah, but the Stank wall thicknesses are unbelievable. I think there are sections a full half-inch thick.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Fetterkey wrote:It's not just Guard that KPs are broken for. Consider, for example, the KP advantage granted by Nob Bikers...

Nob bikers shouldn't exist and were an idiotic oversight, I don't think you can use that to color the IGs killpoint issues. No army looks good next to them. Nob bikers are broken within the game system. Period. They would be just as good in the previous editions VP rules considering if you've killed both squads you've wiped out their army anyway. They are a basket full of eggs. A basket that is going to kill you really really hard and is basically indestructible.

IMO Nob Bikers would be tier two at best without KPs, but that's a different story entirely. It seems intuitively obvious that KPs are broken; there's simply no reason to ascribe equal values to unequal units, other than some arbitrary fear of math or MSU lists. Even without the extreme cases of Guard or Nob Bikers, why should killing a Tactical Squad count the same as a Combat Squad? KPs simply don't make sense, and though I can see what the designers were trying to go for when they included them, I feel that it's clear they were far from the mark.

Massive Red Herring here Shummy. It's got nothing to do with metal tanks and you damn well know it.

Or plastic. Your pot kettle is blacking.

As I said, and Janthink said, it is in their best interests to make it possible for players to purchase multiples of their newest kits.

Yes, it is also in their best interests to sell any model. They make the same amount on a chimera that they do on a valk, probably more given materials. It doesn't make business sense to recoup sunk cost at the cost of existing income. The valkyrie represents an investment in the quality of the IG line as a whole, and its just one part of that whole.

Plastic kits aren't cheap, so if they can sell a lot of them, they make their money back quicker, so they make them available in more places than they previously were ('Fex, Stegadon), or simply allow lots of units to take them if its a new unit (Valk).

You're awful at business. They don't care about making money back on sunk costs within a pre existing line by selling tons of a single model. Sunk costs are sunk costs, they are investments. Returning investments specifically on sunk costs are only important when the line itself is alone or an integral part. Phones need to recoup development, movies need to recoup cost, a store needs to recoup the cost of computer investment. The valkyrie is a single investment within the line of imperial guard within the line of 40k. It is an expense, but it is one that will be recouped in the short term by overall game sales, and in the longrun will improve sales by improving scope and sales of the IG army and 40k as a game. Where the cash comes from is unimportant, and a cool model kit makes money for the hobby as a whole. Model releases don't exist in a vacuum, how many space marine terminators has the land raider sold? How many tyranid armies has the carnifex sold?

Hell, they've even gone and invented a new unit just to allow even more Valks in an army (the Vendetta).

Indeed, they also made a million new leman russes. The line is expanding, the valk isn't the lynchpin of their sales, and none of this is why they are plastic.

There's no conspiracy theory, it's a company wanting to open up as many avenues of sale as possible, and by allowing anyone to use it, they open up those avenues. How is this a bad thing?

Its a conspiracy theory. Your just stating an obvious intent and conclusion to support it. Of course they want to make money, they are a company. Of course the tank is plastic, they expect to sell a lot and it's uneconomical (and physically impossible/impractical) to do it otherwise. Thats not why its plastic. And thats not why they are letting people use many of them. They are letting people use many of them because its a transport vehicle. It has a variant because it's a simple underslung weapon switch and because every large plastic vehicle kit in the game has some sort of variant already. Redundancy in manufacture allows for easy almost cost free expandability of the line.

What you are saying is akin to the fluoride conspiracy. They put fluoride in water because they want more efficient governmental control. Of course they do. Thats not why they put fluoride in the water.


All transports can be used in spades.
All (but the steam tank) tank kits are plastic.

A metal flying tank would be silly and stupid. A transport tank that is severely limited would be silly and stupid. You're connecting dots that don't make a picture.

I'm done arguing with you. Your pointless and crazy need to be contrary to everything I ever say, regardless of topic, your constant barbs, your general attitude towards everyone, you inability to ever change your mind on any topic and your balls to the wall bullshittery in every god damned fething topic has made this place LESS FUN to post at.

Eat s#it and die you God-damned waste of mother fething space. I'm DONE.

BYE

I know I shouldn't say this, but H.B.M.C., now you must know how JohnHwangDD felt when he put you on ignore.

actualy the steam tank will soon be plastic, or already is. unless im totaly wrong.

H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm done arguing with you. Your pointless and crazy need to be contrary to everything I ever say, regardless of topic, your constant barbs, your general attitude towards everyone, you inability to ever change your mind on any topic and your balls to the wall bullshittery in every god damned fething topic has made this place LESS FUN to post at.

Eat s#it and die you God-damned waste of mother fething space. I'm DONE.

BYE

Yes, pointless crazy and contrary. I'm not an admitted anti GW conspiracy theorist that uses every new model and line release to further enhance my own non sensical viewpoints about senseless and idiotic business decisions that never actually happen. Learn economics. Learn business. Come back when you've done that. But then you never will, you're already stuck thirty miles up your own and you just plug your ears and cry every time someone disagrees with you. As for making it less fun to post? Welcome to everyone else's world when you show up.

Glaive Company CO wrote:I think the problem lies in the KP rules themselves.

I disagree, strongly.

Glaive Company CO wrote:There is a unit of soft, squishy mongoloids wielding weapons slightly less deadly than easy bake ovens

Opposing them is the greatest warmachine in the universe that is more proficient at driving and using it's weapons when the crew is unconscious than any Imperial Guard unit attempting to match it.

GW has already decided that these units are not of equal value which is why one of them is 60 points and the other is 250 points. Why in the hell are these two units worth an equal amount of KP's!?

Ahh but Glaive, GW has decided that they ARE of equal value. You can take your superman hero soldiers and gloriously stand them atop the objective, and at the bottom of the turn i'll skulk my mongoloids over to within 3" of that objective. My 60 points says that your 250 isn't scoring anymore.

Until objective games give any sort of weight at all to cost of unit, kill points will be a useful balancing tool. If objectives couldn't be claimed by a single model, or blocked by a single model, or if the determination of whether an objective were claimed or not had anything to do with the cost of a unit, then you'd have a point.

But as it stands now, kill points offer you a choice. A good game is a "series of interesting choices". Right now any army in the game can have at least 17 units with which to secure and contest objectives. Without kill points there would be no choice. Fill it all out. Monat crisis suits, single speeders, minimum sized units spammed to oblivion. But now you have a difficult choice. Do you have an excellent army in objective games, while having a very difficult time in annihilation games? Or do you make some kind of comprimise?

I admit that the current guard codex does not allow for choice. but that will change in 2 months.

The current Guard codex allows for 1-KP Troops choices for a 4-KP minimum using Grenadiers.

Glaive Company CO wrote:When a unit uses the 'cover fire' order and the unit hit must take a pinning test or suffer twice the wounds does that mean that units that always pass pinning tests always take the extra wounds or do they still take the test and just ignore the fact that that order was used?

I cant tell if this is sarcasm or I missed something about orders. :/


This whole combining a platoon into one unit makes no sense. It seems more like someone making a bad wishlist and passing it off as rumor. I thought the consensus was GW didnt even think KP was an issue so it probably wont be fixed. Its a KP issue, not a guard issue.

Russes costing more may be OK with more armor and rules. The basic russ/demolisher doesnt gain much, but the versions with all heavy weapons could be fun with the rumor they move D6 and fire all. And it depends on the cost of upgrades too, we currently pay 5 for extra armor, they could do something stupid like put it at 15 like marines.

FFS ShumaGorath, DROP IT ALREADY!

Why the feth do you constantly go out of your way to start arguments with HBMC and drag countless topics into god damn flamefests? If you dont like what he has to say, dont fething say anything for ONCE IN YOUR DAMN LIFE!

Im sure im not the only one sick and tired of you ruining threads by constantly picking fights.

Will you be man enough to take this with a grain of salt and move on? No you wont. In true kiddy form you will post something that I could care less about because your EGO refuses to let you go without haveing the last fething word.

Way to kill yet another thread.

@jp400: It takes 2 to fight, so you should chastise BM just as harshly for his choice to continue.

jp400: Awww c'mon. H.B.M.C. used to do the EXACT SAME THING to JohnHwangDD for aaaaages. I find this pretty amusing. And after 29 pages of discussion, surely it's time for a flamefest?

Why?
He isnt the one that goes out of his way to start the fight in the first place.

Wait, why do I care what you of all people say? Your just as bad on these forums.

Figures you would side with the troll. lol.

And Im done and moveing on.

Have a Nice day.

I dunno, I find H.B.M.C., JHDD and Shuma to be entertaining in all kinds of different ways. As long as the exchange is relatively brief (like not more than 3 pages) reading the back and forth is light entertainment for me.

Da Boss,
I agree, but when it happens on every thread it starts to get really old really fast ya know?