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Posted By Primarch on 03/19/2007 6:09 PM
The question of overpowering isnt the skills they BAs get, its the FREE POINTS in every list they get. In an 1850 point BA list currently, you get around 300 points of free skills.

50 Marines with FC would cost 150 points for anyone else. Noone can even argue this at all.

Then there is the DC, of course they arent all FREE marines, but the ones you get have the Feel No Pain rule, and roughly half of them will be free.

Consider the free jump packs as well, and you have a ton of free points in the BA army list.


I dont think they are overpowered, but they should pay for their skills. When that happens, BA players will be saddened, and the rest of us will figure they got whats been coming to them for a while now.


Clay

I have no problem with paying more for FC or the DC. I don't think most BA players will. Technically we do pay for all of the DC marines, we just get them really cheap. 110 points for the first 3 to 6 and then all of the others are paid for with normal marines. Which is why you won't see a lot of the expensive marine choices, but you will see a lot of scouts. And they count as casualties for their original units. So its possible to give up a lot of victory points by having a large Death Company. The Jump packs or rhino are free.

When they nerf us Primarch, you can do your little victory dance and then go bother someone else.

"...you get around 300 points of free skills."

Sorry but that is total bullsh&t and you know it. BA suffer from the Black Rage which is a definite drawback. I finally had to stop using Devs because they would always seem to rage at the worst possible moment for me.

- Greenie

Since the thread has turned into a discussion on the Death Company, lets look at it:

Pros
1. Furious Charge
2. Feel no Pain
3. Free Jump Pack or Rhino
4. 3-6 Cost 150 pts with Chaplain, rest are "free"
5. Killing unit gives opposing player 0 vp
6. Fearless

Cons
1. Are randomly choosen from your all of your marine and scout units and count as causalties for that unit before the game even starts.
2. Are a non scoring unit, they cannot hold objectives
3. The more DC you have the less troops you have in your scoring units
4. If they have no chaplain, thy must move toward the nearest enemy unit
5. Fearless (yes it is also a pro but getting into CC with a ton of guants and losing really really sucks)

And on to Blood Angels in general: Yup they get Furious Charge, they also have blood rage, which means they get to charge forward d6 at the your oppenant on a roll of 6. Sometimes this is great, but when you want to stand and shoot the IG , orks, whoever that are moving toward you instead of moving toward them and allowing them to charge you, well it really sucks.

So are BA and DC the bain of all excistance, having chewed them up with tau and having been chewed up by Nids and Orks, I would have to say no. Have I used them effectively, yes. But what i don't understand is the viseral hatred people have for them.

I can't wait for GW to start talking about rewriting the Necron Codex...now that will be some fun reading on the discussion boards.

Reclusiarch plus Death Company starts at 195 points then add in gear.

Ya they definatly dont get them FREE. The black rage is more than enough. But than toss in your tore up units that can no longer hold anything, and also the charging of vehicles and other things that they can do no damage too.

Posted By Moopy on 03/19/2007 6:27 PM
Were you responding to my post? If so you missed the point. I don't mind paying for the skills, I want to make sure I can take the full range of skills that they couldn't before- thank hunter, counter charge, et.

Thats not going to happen so you might as well get used to  it now.  

Posted By jmurph on 03/19/2007 4:10 PM
Sure is. That is why 'zerks suck.

Which always got me- compare BAs to Khorne WEs. 'Zerkers are well nigh useless (charge that vehicle RARRR!) and more expensive than DC. They actually have to pay for Vet Skills.

I really don't get why they don't just move DC to an Elite choice or retinue. Pick how many guys go emo. Then pay for them. No random rolling stupidity.(Roughly) Balance the unit cost with their usefulness and BLAM! problem solved. And give assault armies assault ramp rhinos. That way they can have expensive coffins to shoot forwad in :-)

definatly  not fluffy. The black rage comes upon BA at random so it makes sense to keep it random.

And also the zerkers are hard core. Take a melta bomb in the unit. On occasion there a pain but than they destroy anything in cc and its all good.

This is turning into a good discussion.

- Greenie

Posted By 5thelement on 03/20/2007 2:02 PM

Posted By Moopy on 03/19/2007 6:27 PM
Were you responding to my post? If so you missed the point. I don't mind paying for the skills, I want to make sure I can take the full range of skills that they couldn't before- thank hunter, counter charge, et.

Thats not going to happen so you might as well get used to  it now.  

Right.  So now that my Veteran Marines aren't forced to take FC, they can't take anything?  Brutally slowed logic. Looking at my codex for skills (for once since it never mattered before), looks like my options are Tank Hunter, Infiltrate and FC.  To say I couldn't take anything?  Stupidity.  Go back to B&C.

RE: Black Rage.

I think Black Rage should remain, and any models suffering from the rage will get the benfit of Furious Charge for that turn. You balance out the detriment with a benefit.

As for Death Company, it's most fair to either pay per model or have some system that can make you lose specialist models from your units on occasion. It's fine when some random scout goes nuts and paints his armor black. What if your lascannon gunner does it? Not so abusable when it loses you a marine worth 30 points and screws up your whole unit, is it?

Another option would be to keep them randomly generated, have the player pay for each random D3 roll determining the DC's size (maybe each roll is an elite slot?).

Why am I even bothering to write this? The list has probably been written already.

what im saying MOOPY is that when the BA codex comes your not going to be makeing any choices. SO get used to it. You wont be taking ANYTHING. by the way im not from b&c.

Again, crazy talk.

You can't have more than one skill. That used to stop BA from taking anything since they already had one.
Now, rumor has it BA won't be forced to have FC. So, now my terminators should be able to take FC or TH for +3 pts each. My Vets should have the choice TH, INF, or FC.  Dreads would also get a skill choice.

There's nothing to back up your empty claim of, "They get nothing". So I won't be "getting used to" a stupid idea.

Sorry, I guess it was EoT not B&C. My bad.

Posted By Mr. X on 03/20/2007 2:20 PM
RE: Black Rage.

I think Black Rage should remain, and any models suffering from the rage will get the benfit of Furious Charge for that turn. You balance out the detriment with a benefit.

I like this idea. 

As far as the WD list goes I'm expecting less power and options over all. Given what happened to the DAs and BTs it seems to be GW's current frame of mind. But don't worry we'll still be hated by a few people, I've seen people still get worked up over the 2nd ed. Space wolves.  

There is a precedent for Moopy's idea. In the chaos codex, when a traitor legion has a specific skill that is their signature skill, like Alphas with infiltrate, it doesn't count against their maximum skills. It would make sense if the same were true with BA's and Furious Charge.

Tell that to the Dark Angels. Their vets and dreads don't have vet skills. Instead they get an extra base attack, some weapon options and are not subject to the 5/10 rule. Could be what happens to BA, especiayl if they get the same treatment as DA.

In regards to the discussion at hand.

I like the idea of making the DC a mandatory elites choice which MUST be taken and you pay X points (Lets say,..200) for D3+2 and then an additional, say, 100 points for another D3 roll, so if you wanted to pay the minimum amount of points required, you'd spend 200 points on anywhere from 3 to 5 jump pack or rhino equipped, fearless, Furious Charge, feel no pain marines. If you have four or more death company marines, one may be upgraded to carry a power weapon or power fist at +15 or +25 points respectively. If you wanted to spend 300 points, you have the potential for anywhere from four to eight DC marines.

Now that should shut the people who complain about DC being 'free' up.

Regarding pulling them from other units, You roll a D6 per infantry squad using the following table. Any models removed in this way are considered casualties.

Tactical squads, BA Scout/Scout Squads, Devastator squads, Assault Squads: Roll one dice for each unit, on a 4 or 5 any non-sergeant model goes to the Death Company, on a 6, the Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant MUST go to the death company and you must reroll for the squad. If a second six is rolled, the owning Blood Angels player may remove the model of his choice from the squad and must roll again. Repeat this process until a 6 is not rolled. Any model that is inducted into the Death Company loses any wargear he may have been equipped with and is armed with the standard Death Company wargear instead. These models are considered casualties for the purposes of scoring and unit strength.

Veteran Squads, Terminator Squads, Terminator Assault Squads, Honor Guard, and Veteran Assault Squads: Veterans of hundreds of campaigns, these marines have long resisted the pull of the red thirst, and have tempered themselves against the bane of the Black Rage. Roll one dice for each unit, on a roll of 5 or 6, one model of the owning Blood Angels players choice must go to the death company. If a six is rolled the Blood Angels player must reroll for the squad once. If a second six is rolled, a second model of the owning Blood Angel players choice is removed from the squad, and no more rerolls are made. Any model that is inducted into the Death Company loses any wargear he may have been equipped with and is armed with the standard death company wargear instead. These models are considered casualties for the purposes of scoring and unit strength.

Does that sound like a reasonable set of rules? Yes? No? Maybe?

Discuss.

-Red__Thirst-

Red THirst,

Alot of BA players are making suggestions similar to yours with respect to how DC are generated from squads.

I'd add one thing: To limit abuse on the part of BA players, and the make the number of DC generated a lower percentage of the chapter (it should be rare, otherwise, BA woudn't have a chapter left standing), I would limit rolls to maximum sized squads only.

Second thing I'd do is allow a maximum of one retinue, regardless of the number of chaplains taken.

BA are my primary army, and I field 10 man squads overall.  Anyhow, my suggestions aren't being made simply to nerf the chapter. They're being made to eliminate the most abusable aspects of the list that lead to (hated) power builds.

INsofar asrolling a 6 goes, I think I would disagree that the veteran sergeant needs to go to the DC. I appreciate it's an attempt to balance things out, but in the absence of being able to bring in PW/PF if a vet falls to the DC, I don't think the ruling is necessary. I would suggest that if one rolls a 6 for a squad, then the player would have the option of bringing the vet into the DC. THis would also reflect the mental toughness of the veteran sergeant, with all his years of resisting the rage., and make it rarer still for a veteran sergeant to fall to the rage.

Another suggestion I have is regarding the black rage rules. And this is new ground.

1. A unit rolls for black rage if it has a weapon skill AND if it is within 12" of an opponent with a weapon skill at the start of its movement.

2. Make a LD check rather than roll a D6. LD 9 = more likely than a '1' on a D6 result of raging. I think 1 in 6 equates to a LD 10, statistically speaking.

3. WHen you rage, you get the fleet movement, must move towrad the enemy, and get furious charge. Here's how its a disadvantage: If a squad rages, it continues to do so on subsequent turns until it either falls back, consolidates, or gets a massacre result. Basically those events either snap the squad back to its senses, or satisfy the urge imparted by the rage. When raging, no heavy weapons may fire, and no weapons may fire that would prevent an assault, if at the end of a squad's movement the squad is in assault range. The squad must assault if it is in assault range at the end of its movement, if it is not falling back.

4. DC are constantly in a rage state, so benefit from furious charge each turn. This would also imply they get fleet of foot each turn in addition to normal movement. That might be a bit hard to swallow, but it would make sense. IF they are led by a chaplain or sanguinary high priest, they do not have to move toward the nearest enemy or move at all in their movement phase.

5. Dreadnoughts also are subject to this rule. This is implied, but I mention it b/c a dreadnought is a vehicle, per game mechanics. For the purpose testing for the black rage, a dreadnought has LD10.

 

One other thing, for 200 points, I'd say make it 1D3 + 3, AND allow 1 model to be equipped with either a PW, PF, or assault-class special weapon. Allowing a player to select a weapon would reflect that sometimes the squad specialist or sergeant can fall to the DC, and they bring their wargear along.

This way you end up with 4 guys at 50 points each, having 1 special weapon in the group, up to 6 guys for 33 points each, having a special weapon. ON average, it's 5 guys at 40 points each, with 1 model having a special weapon. I think that the average cost is spot on. I like the idea of getting another 'bunch' of DC per X number of points. However, my suggestion, looking at your list, is to make it consistently be 200 points blocks for a d3 + 3, with 1 special weapon for the group. Reason being is that the other way, you risk having 1 model for 100 points. I think even the worst BA-haters would agree that's steep for a single DC model.

Thinking about it further, I'd suggest a maximum of 1 200 point group may be taken per 1250 to 1500 points of army, or fraction thereof. THis would be an attempt to implement a chaos chosen (or possessed? I forget which) - style limitation to the number of models per army.

We'd have to do some refinement at this point, b/c in the case where a player can choose more the one group of DC, the DC would be too large if a player could also choose DC randomly from the squad. So I guess we either limit it to one 200 point group + random drops from squads, or cap the maximum number of DC models allowed for a given army size. Just ideas at this point.

This one's a bit of reach, but it's for fluff reasons... ONly one special weapon may be a PW or PF, for the entire death company. The rationale here is that a veteran sergeant would fall rarely, so it would be rare to see a PW/PF in the squad, although certainly possible.

Red_thirst: I like your idea, but if I am going to have to purchase the DC as a manditory unit and then go and roll to see if I remove models as casualties before the game 200 pts is a bit much. If I am going to spend under your plan approx 50 pts per model for a 4 man DC and then have a 50% chance of losing a modle in each of my squads, thats just a bit much.

I would make the cost variable X pts (ex 200 pts) without removing memebers from your squads, or if the BA player wants to take a chance using the current rules or using your removal rules then the DC costY pts (ex 100 pts). This way the BA player has to make a choise while creating his list, does he want to save his squads from the Black rage or is he willing to risk the random throws of the dice for a lower cost unit.

Just my 2 cents

Posted By winterman on 03/20/2007 9:25 PM

So, now my terminators should be able to take FC or TH for +3 pts each. My Vets should have the choice TH, INF, or FC. Dreads would also get a skill choice.

Tell that to the Dark Angels. Their vets and dreads don't have vet skills. Instead they get an extra base attack, some weapon options and are not subject to the 5/10 rule. Could be what happens to BA, especiayl if they get the same treatment as DA.

Since I don't own the codex, I'll have to ask the question:  Are they stubborn or fearless?  If they are that can take the place of the skill slot.

However even with extra attacks and weapon options, that's still "something" unlike the slowed "nothing" that I'm supposed to like.

Posted By OverchargeThis! on 03/21/2007 2:42 AM

I'd add one thing: To limit abuse on the part of BA players...

Lets be careful with that term.  The players do what the designers let them do, and if it's building an OTT army then the fault lies with the designers who let it happen in the first place. Same goes for IW, (insert your hated army here), etc...  Lax attitudes and untested lists cause these exploits, but once they're in writing, it's all fair.  The blame lays at the feet of those that make the game, and it's a shame they sluff their responsibilities off onto the community to "police" ourselves.  That's unfair to us, and the player shouldn't be punished for things that aren't their fault. 

For themost part, I dont have a problem with the BA army. Just proper unit buying with the deathcompany, and I'm fine. I dont even care they all come with furious charge, since the red thirst/black rage tends to balance it out a bit. I've seen BA run too many tmes when they needed to shoot....

Look man are you blind??? Did i ever say nothing?? I said you will get the cheesy ability that GW wants you to have. Theres one thats not nothing.

After that there will be a mix of things as in the DA codex the terminators and RW are fearless. And the RW have scout. When i said nothing i meant that you will not be able to pick. It will all be spelled out ahead of time instead of haveing any choices. And for the vet squads and command squads you get no veteran choices. If they follow the DA codex.

I have plenty to back me up. ALL the 4th edition Meq codexes have been exactly the way i mention. Thats plenty of back up.

The death company have been whined about for ever. 200 points is rediculous considering how much they hinder the army. Really the army is not that hard so why all the whining about one unit is seriously weak. How about an army full of nothing but death company? Whine about the necron all there guys have this?
Oh well any changes will be whined about by someone. Guess its to be expected.

Lets do this everyone makes there specific marine chapter with the sm codex. Use the traits and build your army. Instead gw will concentrate on new armies and how to make EVERY other army except marines a bit  more popular.

"Lets do this everyone makes there specific marine chapter with the sm codex. Use the traits and build your army. Instead gw will concentrate on new armies and how to make EVERY other army except marines a bit more popular. "

I think most gamers would like nothing better.

Posted By OverchargeThis! on 03/21/2007 2:42 AM

Another suggestion I have is regarding the black rage rules. And this is new ground.

1. A unit rolls for black rage if it has a weapon skill AND if it is within 12" of an opponent with a weapon skill at the start of its movement.

2. Make a LD check rather than roll a D6. LD 9 = more likely than a '1' on a D6 result of raging. I think 1 in 6 equates to a LD 10, statistically speaking.

3. WHen you rage, you get the fleet movement, must move towrad the enemy, and get furious charge. Here's how its a disadvantage: If a squad rages, it continues to do so on subsequent turns until it either falls back, consolidates, or gets a massacre result. Basically those events either snap the squad back to its senses, or satisfy the urge imparted by the rage. When raging, no heavy weapons may fire, and no weapons may fire that would prevent an assault, if at the end of a squad's movement the squad is in assault range. The squad must assault if it is in assault range at the end of its movement, if it is not falling back.

4. DC are constantly in a rage state, so benefit from furious charge each turn. This would also imply they get fleet of foot each turn in addition to normal movement. That might be a bit hard to swallow, but it would make sense. IF they are led by a chaplain or sanguinary high priest, they do not have to move toward the nearest enemy or move at all in their movement phase.

5. Dreadnoughts also are subject to this rule. This is implied, but I mention it b/c a dreadnought is a vehicle, per game mechanics. For the purpose testing for the black rage, a dreadnought has LD10.

Some good thoughts, but IMO too complex to be used.  Maintaining status markers for Black Rage from round to round isn't something GW does in 40k.  Everything either lasts until the end of the current turn (Markerlights) or the next (Stunned, Shaken, Smoke, etc.). 

Also, your LD system for Black Rage doesn't work by the math.  LD10 has only a 1/12 chance to fail (three possible results out of 36 on 2d6), and just taking a Master gives your whole army LD10. 

Posted By Green Bloater on 03/20/2007 10:53 AM
"...you get around 300 points of free skills."

Sorry but that is total bullsh&t and you know it. BA suffer from the Black Rage which is a definite drawback. I finally had to stop using Devs because they would always seem to rage at the worst possible moment for me.

- Greenie

And my Chaos lord with Berserker Glaive never gets to shoot his plasma pistol!

Posted By 5thelement on 03/20/2007 2:09 PM
definatly  not fluffy. The black rage comes upon BA at random so it makes sense to keep it random.

Guardsmen die pretty much at random but IG remnant squads don't have randomly determined sizes...

Are people seriously complaining about the BA's ability to shoot (not to mention the players' fault for abusing lists) or is my Sarcasmeter not working?

KK said something about having remnants of 5/10-man squads "sit out" because DA are OMG STRICT. I think you should combine this with "random IG deaths and squad remnants" and you could have a fun system where you gamble for how many DC members you think you'll gain in multiples of 5. Any models over the number (meaning underestimate) are thrown out and you still pay for them.  If you overestimated, you pay for all. 

Its the end of the world.

I witnessed a BA player actually use 2 squads of termies last night in a 1500 pt game.

It is surely a sign of the end times.

Posted By stonefox on 03/23/2007 4:44 AM
Are people seriously complaining about the BA's ability to shoot (not to mention the players' fault for abusing lists) or is my Sarcasmeter not working?

It's not sarcasm. It took me a long time to completely stop blaming the player for over powered lists.  True, this is a mutual game and when you show up you realize that it's meant to be fun, and wiping someone off the board  w/o them having a chance isn't fun for the other player.  I dunno about you but I don't spend hundreds of dollars to play games that piss me off.

However, who really brought the list to the table?  The designer who allowed it to be made in the first place.  If the designers had done their job and created balanced lists then the whole point would be moot.  However they didn't and abuse happens because they were sloppy.  Instead, they've put the burden back on the players to "police" each other, which can detract from friendly games. Especially when there's no hard guidelines for policing. Why fix your work when you can make others do it for you?

So, yes, its up to the designers to do their job and get it right.

" whole squads of Termies in a BA list? I dont know what to say? I just use the one. Assualt termies at that.