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Not to mention the fact that the theme of the official models already draws heavily on the spanish inquisition, and that's right up there with the most evil and politically abhorrant things in human history.

wiggles wrote:Isn't the entire Imperium of man fluff a mangled parody of all the worst parts of right wing twentieth century politics, with the worst parts of medieval religious zealotry, superimposed into a futuristic setting, with psykers and mutants replacing the real heretics of earths past, and aliens replacing the ethnic minorites?

The whole setting is full of talk about racial purity and dodgy ideas that would seem to legitimise eugenics if you took them seriously. Then there's religious crusades, purges and just about everything else short of actually putting death camps in there.

Modelling witch hunters as nazis seems entirely appropriate to me, as if you really objected to that sort of stuff, you'd have never set foot in a games workshop store again after the first time you opened a rule book.

Yes history repeats itself. ( jist of what you said )

but no need to glorify the past specific sins ( jist of the reactions in this thread )

serio0usely.. why do i even need to ... nvm

LunaHound wrote:

wiggles wrote:Isn't the entire Imperium of man fluff a mangled parody of all the worst parts of right wing twentieth century politics, with the worst parts of medieval religious zealotry, superimposed into a futuristic setting, with psykers and mutants replacing the real heretics of earths past, and aliens replacing the ethnic minorites?

The whole setting is full of talk about racial purity and dodgy ideas that would seem to legitimise eugenics if you took them seriously. Then there's religious crusades, purges and just about everything else short of actually putting death camps in there.

Modelling witch hunters as nazis seems entirely appropriate to me, as if you really objected to that sort of stuff, you'd have never set foot in a games workshop store again after the first time you opened a rule book.

Yes history repeats itself. ( jist of what you said )

but no need to glorify the past specific sins ( jist of the reactions in this thread )

serio0usely.. why do i even need to ... nvm

I'm just saying, i don't think he's glorifying anything. I don't think it's possible to with a paint job on some toy soldiers, really. Just like the 40K fluff referencing events from 20th century and medieval history to give the backstory pathos isn't glorifying those events, I don't think parodying or drawing on the imagery of those events as a theme for an army is either.

It might offend people who are sensitive to the subject matter, and don't even like to see nazi influenced imagery, but those people ought to be just as offended by stuff in the official GW lines anyway. It's the ideas that are dangerous, not the aesthetics, which are kind of cool, and have been recycled in fiction to make cool bad guys over and over again.

Just my two cents. I like the idea.

LunaHound wrote:

the question is do you respect their reason to be offended ? ( no matter what your intention may be)
remember irl people wont reason with you as we do in forum. they judge you for it.

ah the great reasoning of the forums...
I find it that in Real Life however people judge you they normally are face to face with you and it does not just come down to speech as talking never convinced anyone of anything.

I respect that people believe that some things are taboo or bad manners or even bad form, I understand that experience shapes us all and more often the not opinions will not align.

I respect that you might be offended by an action of mine, to be truthful I am sorry if anyone takes me as cold-hearted but I understand and respect you none the less. I believe that a winning smile and proper explanation can convince anyone that at least I have a reason for what I do. I have nothing but the greatest respect possible for those who fought and those who gave their lives to fight oppression such as the Nazis.I have been called many things over the years and all I can say is "sorry for offending you, wish you and me could have gotten better acquainted before you drew that opinion of me" if I accidentally burn a bridge or two due to my actions that really is too bad.

Now I'll get off my soapbox, sorry for ranting abit and meandering some with the topic.

wiggles wrote:

I'm just saying, i don't think he's glorifying anything. I don't think it's possible to with a paint job on some toy soldiers, really. Just like the 40K fluff referencing events from 20th century and medieval history to give the backstory pathos isn't glorifying those events, I don't think parodying or drawing on the imagery of those events as a theme for an army is either.

It might offend people who are sensitive to the subject matter, and don't even like to see nazi influenced imagery, but those people ought to be just as offended by stuff in the official GW lines anyway. It's the ideas that are dangerous, not the aesthetics, which are kind of cool, and have been recycled in fiction to make cool bad guys over and over again.

Just my two cents. I like the idea.

lets just leave it at that ok?
and it goes back to questiion i kept asking.

-whether or not you respect their reason for been sensitive about it.

I'll just leave one example you guys be able to relate to.

If i make a bunch of deff kopta army piloted by tallarns , with flying base = WTC towers , just tell me if i can enter that into a tournament
without getting booted out ( saving all the used excuse everyone gave so far ) you think people will listen?

and dont you DARE tell me its different.

Take the uniform colours from Nazi Germany, hell GW base many figure on the design of german uniform. But don't go with the iconography, swastikas and the like, uniform colours are fine.

Making an army in the fashion doesn't make you pro-nazi. Does painting the praetorians in red with white helmets make you pro-british colonialism?

LunaHound wrote:

wiggles wrote:

I'm just saying, i don't think he's glorifying anything. I don't think it's possible to with a paint job on some toy soldiers, really. Just like the 40K fluff referencing events from 20th century and medieval history to give the backstory pathos isn't glorifying those events, I don't think parodying or drawing on the imagery of those events as a theme for an army is either.

It might offend people who are sensitive to the subject matter, and don't even like to see nazi influenced imagery, but those people ought to be just as offended by stuff in the official GW lines anyway. It's the ideas that are dangerous, not the aesthetics, which are kind of cool, and have been recycled in fiction to make cool bad guys over and over again.

Just my two cents. I like the idea.

lets just leave it at that ok?
and it goes back to questiion i kept asking.

-whether or not you respect their reason for been sensitive about it.

Certainly. People can be offended by anything they like. I personally am deeply offended by lots of things other people accept as mundane, or even consider admirable. But if Nazi imagery really offends somebody that much, I wonder how they manage to not be offended by the bulk of contemporary fiction.

If I made a nice looking nazi themed IG army (as if the standard one wasn't Nazi themed enough already) and I took it to somebodies house and they were offended, I would certainly not bring it again. That's just being polite.

Howard A Treesong wrote:Take the uniform colours from Nazi Germany, hell GW base many figure on the design of german uniform. But don't go with the iconography, swastikas and the like, uniform colours are fine.

Making an army in the fashion doesn't make you pro-nazi. Does painting the praetorians in red with white helmets make you pro-british colonialism?

exactly, TBH i LOVE their uniform from design point. just dont paint the swaztika or anyhting resembling that and its OK

wiggles wrote:

Certainly. People can be offended by anything they like. I personally am deeply offended by lots of things other people accept as mundane, or even consider admirable. But if Nazi imagery really offends somebody that much, I wonder how they manage to not be offended by the bulk of contemporary fiction.

If I made a nice looking nazi themed IG army (as if the standard one wasn't Nazi themed enough already) and I took it to somebodies house and they were offended, I would certainly not bring it again. That's just being polite.

If OP put effort to painting an army, im pretty sure he want to be able to use it as often as he can ( without suffering any kind of restrictions hence why HE ASKED ).
I know you can choose to not bring it again to that person 's house like you said. But what if he plays in a shop, or a game store? Then the OPTIONs wont be so lenient like your situation.

Also consider the posibility of reselling the army when OP gets bored of it ( its going to be alot harder i know it )

So by you saying as long as I don't have the Swastika or anything resembling it, than its fine? Well its a good thing im using this then huh?

Yes if I made this army I would want to use it in a GW store, I want to use all of my armies in a GW store eventually. But I have no shortage of the stores near by, there are three standard stores and the battle bunker in my area so I am certain that at least one would be fine with it. As far a home games go no one I know will have a problem.

If this thread can accurately show what at least some gamers think than it looks more like the army would be fine in some places.

BrotherStynier wrote:So by you saying as long as I don't have the Swastika or anything resembling it, than its fine? Well its a good thing im using this then huh?

Yes if I made this army I would want to use it in a GW store, I want to use all of my armies in a GW store eventually. But I have no shortage of the stores near by, there are three standard stores and the battle bunker in my area so I am certain that at least one would be fine with it. As far a home games go no one I know will have a problem.

If this thread can accurately show what at least some gamers think than it looks more like the army would be fine in some places.

yep thats perfectly fine. hope we can see some soon, the anticipation kills.

If things go according to plan demomonk will have the camo scheme posted tomorrow that I wanna work with and how it'll look on the models, while this weekend starting images of the 251/Rhino prototype should be up.

I thought you were being sarcastic but couldn't tell.

LunaHound wrote:

Also consider the posibility of reselling the army when OP gets bored of it ( its going to be alot harder i know it )

I personally think it would sell like hot cakes, provided it was done well, but there you go.

BrotherStynier wrote:If things go according to plan demomonk will have the camo scheme posted tomorrow that I wanna work with and how it'll look on the models, while this weekend starting images of the 251/Rhino prototype should be up.

I thought you were being sarcastic but couldn't tell.

I wont be sarcastic no , it was my intention to give you a clear , honest reply but i guess im flawed after all
and the frustration from replying to those other ( wont name the 2 ) that might have led you to think otherwise.

i could have ended all the mess of debate from earlier by posting 1 picture . but doing so i would probably
be banned from the forum.

Everyone is flawed, no shame there. (as long as you're not mutant flawed...sorry had to fit the Inquisition for a moment.)

Well not knowing what the picture is I will take your word for it.

BrotherStynier wrote:Everyone is flawed, no shame there. (as long as you're not mutant flawed...sorry had to fit the Inquisition for a moment.)

Best way to phrase this, I dunno. But, here's a shot:

If I were to do this army, I would avoid "Nazi" icons. Swastikas being top there. Now, using German military markings would be a different story. I would use some certainly, if not all, that were appropriate. As I have been reminded a couple of times in my life, once on this very board in a thread, WWII German =/= Nazi. Nazi was a political party. The German military was the German military.

All that being said, I will now swing back into reality. I would SO not do this army. No way. I personally do not feel a strong enough pull toward WWII German Anything to risk offending someone with my work. Period. I could see myself using some tank designs in some conversions as inspiration because a StuG is cool looking and so was Maus. And the Ho-114. And the Me-292 (?). I find some of their engineering to be pleasing to look at. However, no offense to Germany, the German people or anyone else intended; I am just not going to throw that much time and money at putting together a model army to mimic the Wehrmacht.

Everyone draws their lines somewhere. Others can agree, disagree, or abstain from opinion. This is where I draw my lines on this topic.

This should not be about the best way to tastefully model Nazis, it should really address what the original posters finds so admirable about them he wants to spend hours recreating them.

I like the uniforms and the vehicles.

I fail to see how my making them is any different from some one buying a Tamiya or Dragon kit and making them that way.

LunaHound wrote:

I'll just leave one example you guys be able to relate to.

If i make a bunch of deff kopta army piloted by tallarns , with flying base = WTC towers , just tell me if i can enter that into a tournament
without getting booted out ( saving all the used excuse everyone gave so far ) you think people will listen?

and dont you DARE tell me its different.

Actually, that would probably equal something along the lines of creating a piece where he's got his inquisitor in full SS regalia, wielding a whip and driving a bunch of starved figures in shabby clothing in front of him, filing into a crematorium. That's not what the OP is suggestng at all. Read the thread. He/she's suggesting to use similar uniforms and theme with absolutely no actual Nazi symbology.

To be honest, the excessive imagery seems superfluous. We could also all shout boo at someone making an Israeli themed army, pictured as shooting two-year olds in the back. Same gak. Very offensive to a lot of people. However, the same Israeli themed army, firing upon vicious chaos spawn is an entirely different thing. (Trying to tie this to current events)

Demonizing a culture like this makes it more fearsome. We can all agree that some parts of earth's history are absolutely disgusting. However, hating anyone who sees past the demonized outer shell and finds something useful in the lessons is just silly. (In this case the cool look)

Now, enough derailing. I'm wondering: How are you going to make the rather distinctive helmets? Pure GS or do you have some cool plan for those? Also, do you plan on modding weapons and such as well? Please get us some pictures, even if it's just WIP. I'd love to see how you're approaching this. Also, that way you can further justify having this thread in this part of the forum. ^^

For the helmets I am thinking that I could probably incorporate Tamyia or Dragon 1/48th Scale Helmets in with out too much trouble, I have enough of those laying around from unbuilt models that I could easily experiment combining with a Kasrkin Squad I have laying around and see how that turns out. If that doesn't work I could try using green stuff which I admit I don't have any experience with a will rely on guidance from my friend, failing that there's always modded Cadian heads.

For the weapons if I choose to try and mod them to reflect German weapons I think that a filed down and modded Bolter could possibly work for Stg 44s, and even MP-40s. Meltaguns I might substitute for Panzer Faust 60s, which where close range anti-tank missile launchers. I have no idea what to model the Plasma guns after, and will probably leave them the same.

I want to shy away from using the DKoK models, yes they may have the German feel I am looking for but I don't know what combining their Great Coats with the Late Pattern Oak would look like. I do have a DKoK Grenadier Squad that I could experiment on though.

Pics of the real life equipment/camo I want to copy.
StG44

Sdk. Kfz. 251, the rhino conversion won't look exactly like this but close enough would be enough of a victory.

Dot 44, possibly for the pants of some of the models

Autumn Pattern Oakleaf, for Tunics or Armored Plates

I'm going to take this in a different direction:

First, BrotherStynier, if you're surprised at the overall reaction to the idea you've identified yourself as being divergent from the mainstream opinion. This is in and of itself not a bad thing... It;s just if you're divergent in a good way or a bad way.

My main point, though, is that modifying the weapons an vehicles seems like it's not warranted. This force may dress like 38,000 year old Germans, but they're not... They're Stormtroopers, and get the appropriate local variants. I think I'd want to see some fluff as to why they are using recreations of ancient vehicles (crappy by their standards) instead of 'modern' and Adeptus Mechanicus approved designs.

The DKoK (I think: I may be thinking of another regiment) justify some different vehicle designs by the harsh terrain that mandates all vehicles be sealed. The Vostroyans seem to have some extremely baroque vehicles, presumably tied to their background as well... Yours, at present jsut has some weird historical recreator thing going.

I'd place myself divergent in a good way, honestly I didn't think people who can except the fact that the Imperium has Armies based off of the Soviet Union, Crusaders, and the like, to be so opposed to a WWII German theme.

You have a good point about the vehicles, them being modeled off of 38,000 year old half-tracks is not warranted and I could just go along with the standard Rhinos, and I most likely will end up doing so. Still though I want to make a prototype 251 because I want to see if a Rhino can be turned into one, even though I'd have an easier time with an Ork Truck. I might just leave it at modifying the look of the Rhino with out making it a half-track, while still retaining the German look.

Though I think for the Stormtrooper Hellguns an attempt should be made to make them appear like the StG44, it would be their local variant.

I love armies with what I call 'Signature conversions', thoguh, so don't take my comments as a negative. it just needs to be explained in fluff as opposed to "because I wanted it to look liek something else."

The Mordians and Praetorians at least kind of 'work' because they're wearing archaic uniforms but wielding modern weapons. The uniforms are funny, but then again most armies have somewhat bizarre touches, at least on dress uniforms. All the weird fringe bits and such...

Your guys presumably are housed on a crappy world... Not that the Imperium seems to have a shortage of these. It's preumably a high-tech world if they're making Hellguns in quantity with a radically different design. Maybe it's got a lot of flat surfaces where a halftrack can get better sustained speeds than a dedicated tank?

pavonis wrote:Personally, I don't think it is a good idea to go into that grey area. But if you really feel that strongly, go for it, just understand that tournament organizers may ask you not to play. I've never played at a GT, but I hear they are more strict about these types of things. And understand you may offend people and some people may choose not to play you in friendly games.
I do agree, however, that their uniforms are really sharp.

GW stores(at least in Britain or at the very least the ones I've been to) are required to ask anyone playing a historically "accurate" army(or close enough that people can't tell the difference) not to play their army in the store or be banned. Take of that for GW's stance on the subject what you will.

Edit: And I will note, that they made specific mention of not just German armies, but British and American armies as well.

First:

@Luna I am Jewish...I have direct ties to the travesties. The problem is that I know exactly what the difference between Hitler and Stalin is. The only difference is that Hitler didn't think rationally while Stalin, even though hot headed, was a very rational when compared to Hitler. You think Russia was any better than the Nazi party? I say Nazi party because Nazi doesn't equate German and that is a sensitive subject as my last name is Litz and we are actually of German decent. Yes, I know, German Jew. I am a walking paradox. To get back to the point, Stalin, and Russia before him were leading raids with the ultimate goal of murder on Jewish communities inside the Russian borders. My point is that no one is innocent and everyone has done horrific things. ALL countries are formed by bloodshed, internal or external. Genocide is nothing new. If I made an army based on American military structures and you were American Indian you should be appalled.

All history has objective evidence that we all interpret subjectively.

If it pisses someone off then they don't have to play against you. Anyone that is so pissed off at something of that nature should probably seek out anger management courses.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Kej wrote:So....my Red Army Commisar led Conscript themed army is ok...even though their politics were the one in the same that led the world into a stand still where people were afraid to breathe due to the prospect of a nuclear weapon being dropped on their home town? Not to mention, more people lost their lives during the Cold War than all other wars combined if you count the brutal dictators that the US and Soviets backed to keep the expansion of the others political ideas at a halt.

No no no, you don't understand.

Hitler was evil in a way that no one else ever has been, or ever will be.

I mean, he killed - well, less people than Stalin - but he was racist too.

Well, actually Stalin was also racist, killing ethnic Poles, Koreans, and eventually hating Jews as well.

Hmm.

Yay...someone actually gets the point

You sir are friend material

LunaHound wrote:

I'll just leave one example you guys be able to relate to.

If i make a bunch of deff kopta army piloted by tallarns , with flying base = WTC towers , just tell me if i can enter that into a tournament
without getting booted out ( saving all the used excuse everyone gave so far ) you think people will listen?

and dont you DARE tell me its different.

Well, actually....its VERY different. You're not really referring to a generic army / combatants who follow an ideal or political view point, your "Deff Kopta's" would be parodying a specific situation. The only way the OP would fall into the same catagory as your example is if he did a specific scene with his army marching round what could be identified as a concentration camp......

Delephont wrote:

Well, actually....its VERY different. You're not really referring to a generic army / combatants who follow an ideal or political view point, your "Deff Kopta's" would be parodying a specific situation. The only way the OP would fall into the same catagory as your example is if he did a specific scene with his army marching round what could be identified as a concentration camp......

Actually I think the people that crashed into the towers followed a pretty strict religious ideal based on Islamic fundamentalism. The rest of the army might not follow the same pattern but deffkoptas definitely represent that pattern.

Either way, I wouldn't care if you brought that in to play with. I would just make fun of your mobile battlefield buildings . I realize I am harder to offend than a lot of people but some people are just too sensitive.

@OP

I say do it and do it proper. I understand not placing swastikas all over your models out of a level of respect. Maybe even change the color of the band. Make it a black band with an army insignia on it. Either way it will be just fine.

Borrow from history and make the army your own. You are the one who has to live with it every time you pull it out of its case.

sigh

Just to clear a few things up, Stalin persecuted the Jewish faith, not the ethnic group. And jews were not persecuted for practising their religion any more than christians were. The church as a whole was suppressed in soviet russia. As for the russians leading raids to kill jews, you're going to have to find me a source for that. I highly doubt you'll find one.

After the 1917 revolution, both the provisional government, and the bolsheviks after it made great strides in integrating the jewish people. There was massive anti-semitism in russia, and revolution forced it underground. Jews were given full rights for the first time in russian history. Trotsky was a jew. The whole leninist-marxist tradition is informed by jewish scholarship. That's why the white army, the reactionary, foreign (including british) funded and supported force trying to overthrow the revolutionary regime were openly so anti-semitical. Their slogan was "strike at the jews and save russia".

The bolsheviks and the red army led the fight against anti-semitism. Jews, like a lot of us, have the 1917 revolution to thank for a great many things. The bolsheviks did crack down on the jewish faith, and jewish nationalism, which was seen as a threat to the revolution, and rightly so. It was.

wiggles wrote:Just to clear a few things up, Stalin persecuted the Jewish faith, not the ethnic group.

There was hardly a difference in practice. The two were intertwined far too closely to be separated easily; especially with someone as distrustful as Stalin.

After the 1917 revolution, both the provisional government, and the bolsheviks after it made great strides in integrating the jewish people. There was massive anti-semitism in russia, and revolution forced it underground. Jews were given full rights for the first time in russian history.

Yes, but Stalin wasn't in power then.

When he did come into power, he slowly became more and more distrustful of the Jews.

Hence his destruction of the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee

And the complete fabrication of the "Doctor's Plot."

Trotsky was a jew.

Okay, that's one more Stalin killed.

The whole leninist-marxist tradition is informed by jewish scholarship. That's why the white army, the reactionary, foreign (including british) funded and supported force trying to overthrow the revolutionary regime were openly so anti-semitical. Their slogan was "strike at the jews and save russia".

Lenin =/= Stalin

The bolsheviks and the red army led the fight against anti-semitism. Jews, like a lot of us, have the 1917 revolution to thank for a great many things. The bolsheviks did crack down on the jewish faith, and jewish nationalism, which was seen as a threat to the revolution, and rightly so. It was.

Surely you don't believe Stalins attacks against "Zionism" were that benign?

Every neo-nazi out there claims "Zionism" to be their real enemy.

He also used "rootless cosmopolitan" as a euphemism. That doesn't mean it was aimed at anything less than the Jews.