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wiggles wrote:Just to clear a few things up, Stalin persecuted the Jewish faith, not the ethnic group.
There was hardly a difference in practice. The two were intertwined far too closely to be separated easily; especially with someone as distrustful as Stalin.
After the 1917 revolution, both the provisional government, and the bolsheviks after it made great strides in integrating the jewish people. There was massive anti-semitism in russia, and revolution forced it underground. Jews were given full rights for the first time in russian history.
Yes, but Stalin wasn't in power then.
When he did come into power, he slowly became more and more distrustful of the Jews.
The whole leninist-marxist tradition is informed by jewish scholarship. That's why the white army, the reactionary, foreign (including british) funded and supported force trying to overthrow the revolutionary regime were openly so anti-semitical. Their slogan was "strike at the jews and save russia".
Lenin =/= Stalin
The bolsheviks and the red army led the fight against anti-semitism. Jews, like a lot of us, have the 1917 revolution to thank for a great many things. The bolsheviks did crack down on the jewish faith, and jewish nationalism, which was seen as a threat to the revolution, and rightly so. It was.
Surely you don't believe Stalins attacks against "Zionism" were that benign?
Every neo-nazi out there claims "Zionism" to be their real enemy.
He also used "rootless cosmopolitan" as a euphemism. That doesn't mean it was aimed at anything less than the Jews.
I was referring to an earlier posters incorrect claim that jews had been persecuted by the bolsheviks before stalin. I just wanted to point out that the jewish people were an integral part of the revolution, and most welcomed it. That there were divisions among jewish people, and that jewish nationalists were in conflict with the new workers state is inevitable, just as other nationalist groups, and religious organisations were.
After Stalin is a different matter. After stalin had trotsky declared a fascist, there were lots of purges, and among the leadership of the bolshevik party, and the russian intelligensia lot's of jews died, but so did lot's of non-jews. The party line was still officially in opposition to anti-semitism. It's certainly arguable that stalin was an anti-semite, and I certainly wouldn't defend him, but to compare this situation to the eradication of 6 million jewish citizens is absurd. We're talking about jewish writers and party members, along with a lot of other people mysteriously disappearing. We're not talking about open genocide, trains full of women and children going to gas chambers, that sort of thing. It's certainly possible that Stalin was an anti-semite, and that this informed his opposition to "zionism". Either way, there is nothing benign about the purges, and I would never say that there was.
You certainly don't need to tell me that lenin=/=stalin. I hope you don't think I was making some kind of defence of stalinism.
wiggles wrote:I was referring to an earlier posters incorrect claim that jews had been persecuted by the bolsheviks before stalin. I just wanted to point out that the jewish people were an integral part of the revolution, and most welcomed it. That there were divisions among jewish people, and that jewish nationalists were in conflict with the new workers state is inevitable, just as other nationalist groups, and religious organisations were.
Ah. Makes sense then.
After Stalin is a different matter. After stalin had trotsky declared a fascist, there were lots of purges, and among the leadership of the bolshevik party, and the russian intelligensia lot's of jews died, but so did lot's of non-jews. The party line was still officially in opposition to anti-semitism. It's certainly arguable that stalin was an anti-semite, and I certainly wouldn't defend him, but to compare this situation to the eradication of 6 million jewish citizens is absurd. We're talking about jewish writers and party members, along with a lot of other people mysteriously disappearing. We're not talking about open genocide, trains full of women and children going to gas chambers, that sort of thing. It's certainly possible that Stalin was an anti-semite, and that this informed his opposition to "zionism". Either way, there is nothing benign about the purges, and I would never say that there was.
Well, I agree that Stalin didn't have nearly the same amount of hatred for the Jews as Hitler. The Jews were another group on Stalin's long list of groups he considered enemies or threats (at least later in his reign); they were the front and center threat to civilization with Hitler.
You certainly don't need to tell me that lenin=/=stalin. I hope you don't think I was making some kind of defence of stalinism.
Well, I was a little confused as to what you meant by your post, but I'm happy to hear you're not a supporter Stalin's policies.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2009/01/23 06:38:05
Anuvver fing - when they do sumfing, they try to make it look like somfink else to confuse everybody. When one of them wants to lord it over the uvvers, 'e says "I'm very speshul so'z you gotta worship me", or "I know summink wot you lot don't know, so yer better lissen good". Da funny fing is, arf of 'em believe it and da over arf don't, so 'e 'as to hit 'em all anyway or run fer it.
Balance wrote:I'm going to take this in a different direction:
First, BrotherStynier, if you're surprised at the overall reaction to the idea you've identified yourself as being divergent from the mainstream opinion. This is in and of itself not a bad thing... It;s just if you're divergent in a good way or a bad way.
My main point, though, is that modifying the weapons an vehicles seems like it's not warranted. This force may dress like 38,000 year old Germans, but they're not... They're Stormtroopers, and get the appropriate local variants. I think I'd want to see some fluff as to why they are using recreations of ancient vehicles (crappy by their standards) instead of 'modern' and Adeptus Mechanicus approved designs.
The DKoK (I think: I may be thinking of another regiment) justify some different vehicle designs by the harsh terrain that mandates all vehicles be sealed. The Vostroyans seem to have some extremely baroque vehicles, presumably tied to their background as well... Yours, at present jsut has some weird historical recreator thing going.
West wind productions has a whole line of separate heads for WW2 minis, you might want to check those out.
"If A is a success in life, then A equals x plus y plus z. Work is x; y is play; and z is keeping your mouth shut." - Albert Einstein
Wow, 5 pages of nothing. I can't believe the OP has gotten 5 pages of ranting. Some of the best cut uniforms of any country I've ever seen was the Nazi regime. Seems logical to me to use thier color schemes and designs to create a storm trooper army. Obviously its inappropriate to show Nazi Iconography. Its also obvious that ice tends to be cold and fire tends to be hot. Does the idea demand 5 pages of the obvious?
I've just read through 5 pages and the only pics I've seen is what the poster would like his =][= army to look LIKE and PIE. The OP said in his first post "=][= instead of swastikas", and yet everyone that could be offended jumped on the Anti-Nazi bandwagon and debating WWII.
I personally would like to see some Modelling & Painting in this post.
Nazis, Commnists, Democrats, Republicans, etc...Who cares? We all play with little plastic and metal army men/women/whatevers. Let us lighten up and and eat pie in this dark future.
Look people we have a dying Eldar race, Necrons awakening by the minute, more Nids than we can shake a grot at, Tau-munism, the Imperium falling, Chaos self destructing, dogs and cats linving together, MASS HYSTERIA!!!1!
The worse part is.......we outta pie
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 01:21:13
BrotherStynier wrote:Well excuse me for thinking I could come to a web site for hobbyists of the game and post an idea i had for an Army and post it hoping to get figure out what people would think of the idea and hopefully get some suggestions or something.
Look, you come over here with something that you should have known would be a controversial topic.
The idea that everybody is going to share the same vision as you is kind of silly - you didn't expect there would be detractors?
And besides not all ideas are good ones.
In closing, my suggestion to you is that you abandon the idea.
Assuming that you aren't a closet Nazi, then you don't have the ability to clearly articulate that fact to others.
So this will always cause trouble for you.
Now, perhaps, if you were better at communicating things, then this might go over a little better.
wouldnt it be better to just let the thread die or till OP post some pics and brings it back on topic? I know the current discussion is semi OT but why bump it back up with another pointless post?
BrotherStynier wrote:Well excuse me for thinking I could come to a web site for hobbyists of the game and post an idea i had for an Army and post it hoping to get figure out what people would think of the idea and hopefully get some suggestions or something.
Look, you come over here with something that you should have known would be a controversial topic.
The idea that everybody is going to share the same vision as you is kind of silly - you didn't expect there would be detractors?
And besides not all ideas are good ones.
In closing, my suggestion to you is that you abandon the idea.
Assuming that you aren't a closet Nazi, then you don't have the ability to clearly articulate that fact to others.
So this will always cause trouble for you.
Now, perhaps, if you were better at communicating things, then this might go over a little better.
But I doubt it.
Not once did I say I thought everyone would think like me, I don't see that mentioned anywhere I wanted to see people's opinions on the matter and I have.
The opinions have been noted, and I have decided to go with the people that think it would be cool to see. When I get the army started if it offends you and the others don't click on the page. As for people in a GW I will take a couple of the models over and show them if they don't think its appropriate fine I'll use the army for home games, which is where I primarily play anyway.
Now I will eave you to think that I am a Nazi, as its your right to think of people as you will, though I fail to see how wanting to use uniforms of the SS makes me a Nazi or a closet one at that.
In closing, I suggest that we just let this topic slip away and die until I post pictures of the models, which as I have said should start this weekend. Or this can just be locked and when I have pictures ready I can post a new topic.
i think its a good idea if you do it right. there's no shame in making a nazi army, even with swastika's. its a touchy subject because nazi's aren't in 40k so you'd better have a good explanation for it.
the biggest problem i can see coming from this is that you support nazi's because you took the time an effort to make an entire nazi themed army. guessing by the post your white, live in a suberb or town, and since you can afford 40k don't have a hard life.
the look would be great, but the swastika's would kill it. if you put the effort into this it could turn out amazing; or just be like everyone else and sculpt boobs on them and call it a day.
You know BrotherStynier, I'l be very interested to see pics of this. And no, I won't be praising or decrying the Reich when I see them. Just the modeling. And that was one thing I DID notice, was that you DIDN'T ask for anyone's opinion in your OP, in fact you didn't ask a darn thing. It was more of an announcement. Which is fine, don't get me wrong. It doesn't really steer the discussion at all however, and invites those who wish to participate in the thread to say whatever is on their mind about the OP, rather than focusing on any one aspect. Prehaps a more focused post in the furture, if this is not what you were searching for, with respect.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 06:42:35
So first i need to admit that i didnt read all the 5 pages on this thread so if this has been said already then sorry but heres my 2cents.
I agree its your army and do what ever you feel like doing.
I understand the whole nazi ss swashtica is a bit touchy (trust me while living in germany a friend and I threw rocks out his apartment window at a nazi rally parade ). But as long as doing your army this style is not meant to offend anyone (i hope) And as long as you dont bring objective markers like dead bodies with stars pinned to their jackets or someone getting thrown into a furance. That would be fine in my book.
Shunning someone for making metal and plastic TOY models that look like nazis is insane. Arent we all grown ups here? Didnt legoburner say the aveage age on dakka is like 24-26? It doesnt sound like he wants to base his army off the soldiers stationed at auschwitz or dachau who comitted the horrible crimes against humanity. Hell if you play flames of war are you gonna tell the kid who brings in germans "Uhhh no sorry you cant play here germans were bad and someone may get offended"
I guess it all boils down to its just a game and wether you paint your army like nazis or towel heads or even the KKK(all my gaurdsmen just came from a halloween party and they were all ghosts) it really shouldnt matter. Its just a game. Who are we to judge someones elses choices on how they paint or model their army.
Ill get off my pedastool now and you know what.... paint your army full of swashticas put the SS logo on every piece you can and F*** what everyone else thinks.
If now one will play your army cause its offensive then come on down to utah and ill be more than happy to play your historicly based 40k army
Edit: Happy PIE day everyone
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2009/01/24 06:40:47
This is silly! Buttons are not how one escapes dungeons! I would smash the button and rain beatings liberally down on the wizard for playing such a trick!
Ok so if you model all your stormtroopers with their dicks hanging out then your right that would be in the area of trying to offend someone and the its just a game arguement wouldnt work
This is silly! Buttons are not how one escapes dungeons! I would smash the button and rain beatings liberally down on the wizard for playing such a trick!
grizgrin wrote:You know BrotherStynier, I'l be very interested to see pics of this. And no, I won't be praising or decrying the Reich when I see them. Just the modeling. And that was one thing I DID notice, was that you DIDN'T ask for anyone's opinion in your OP, in fact you didn't ask a darn thing. It was more of an announcement. Which is fine, don't get me wrong. It doesn't really steer the discussion at all however, and invites those who wish to participate in the thread to say whatever is on their mind about the OP, rather than focusing on any one aspect. Prehaps a more focused post in the furture, if this is not what you were searching for, with respect.
You're right I didn't actually ask for opinions even though that was my original intent, sometimes the fingers work slower than the brain. In the future I will make sure I actually say what it is I wish to say, rather than what ever is closest.
Now, I do hope to be able to get pictures of the project up on Sunday, I'm going to get the paints I need and then work on the uniforms after practicing on some Dragon SS models from Budapest in 1945. I will use the squad of DKoK for the initial squad I have an idea on how camo would work on them, the plan is to paint their great coats like they are reversible. Autumn Oak on the outside with a dark grey or black on the inside or reversed on some. Any way this is just the plan and could change back to getting and working on the Rhino.
grizgrin wrote:You know BrotherStynier, I'l be very interested to see pics of this. And no, I won't be praising or decrying the Reich when I see them. Just the modeling. And that was one thing I DID notice, was that you DIDN'T ask for anyone's opinion in your OP, in fact you didn't ask a darn thing. It was more of an announcement. Which is fine, don't get me wrong. It doesn't really steer the discussion at all however, and invites those who wish to participate in the thread to say whatever is on their mind about the OP, rather than focusing on any one aspect. Prehaps a more focused post in the furture, if this is not what you were searching for, with respect.
You're right I didn't actually ask for opinions even though that was my original intent, sometimes the fingers work slower than the brain. In the future I will make sure I actually say what it is I wish to say, rather than what ever is closest.
Now, I do hope to be able to get pictures of the project up on Sunday, I'm going to get the paints I need and then work on the uniforms after practicing on some Dragon SS models from Budapest in 1945. I will use the squad of DKoK for the initial squad I have an idea on how camo would work on them, the plan is to paint their great coats like they are reversible. Autumn Oak on the outside with a dark grey or black on the inside or reversed on some. Any way this is just the plan and could change back to getting and working on the Rhino.
\
it'll be good to see them, after seeing the DKoK, and steel legion mini's these shoulld look good.
wash-away wrote:what about an entirely nude army? if a nudist wants to play 40k its only right.
of course a nazi army might promote the idea that the holocaust happened, and god knows thats not true...
Im sorry but i seemed to have missed the part where i said the holocaust didnt happen. I know the holocaust happened I walked through some of the camps.
You wanna do an entirely nude army? Be my guest my point i was trying to make was that this is just a hobby and everyone has a choice on what they want to do.
But calling someone a closet nazi or saying that a nazi themed army might promote the idea the holocaust didnt happen makes no sense at all.
Are you just arguing to argue?
This is silly! Buttons are not how one escapes dungeons! I would smash the button and rain beatings liberally down on the wizard for playing such a trick!
wash-away wrote:what about an entirely nude army? if a nudist wants to play 40k its only right.
of course a nazi army might promote the idea that the holocaust happened, and god knows thats not true...
Im sorry but i seemed to have missed the part where i said the holocaust didnt happen. I know the holocaust happened I walked through some of the camps.
You wanna do an entirely nude army? Be my guest my point i was trying to make was that this is just a hobby and everyone has a choice on what they want to do.
But calling someone a closet nazi or saying that a nazi themed army might promote the idea the holocaust didnt happen makes no sense at all.
Are you just arguing to argue?
no i'm saying there will alway's be a counterpoint.
would you be comfterble explaining why your army has swastika's to someone thats black or jewish? bigotry is bigotry.
this is why i left dakka, last time it was doctor thunder sculpting boobs on whatever army he was playing at the time. though this is much more justified if done tastfully.
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-- $k 
-- 9k 
-- 6k 
-- 4k 
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). But as long as doing your army this style is not meant to offend anyone (i hope) And as long as you dont bring objective markers like dead bodies with stars pinned to their jackets or someone getting thrown into a furance. That would be fine in my book.
