Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Asmodeus wrote:

Dexy wrote:I want to play Gentleman of the Ring. Is this some kind of posh boxing minitures game?

Oh man... I was thinking the same thing. I was like Mike Tyson in a suit?

I was thinking along the lines of a polite LotR...

Frodo: Good day Mr Sauron, hope I'm not interupting but I seem to have chanced upon your ring.
Sauron: Why thank you sir please stay for some cigars and brandy.

Also forgive me for not going bananas at Space hulk but what the heck is it?

Back to the Dark Eldar when FAILfish translated them as being discarded I got a really weird image of the room at the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark and one of the boxes full of Dark Eldar stuff.

"Where is the new DE codex?"
"Its being worked on by top men."
"Who?"
"TOP men."

Hammerziet wrote:Also forgive me for not going bananas at Space hulk but what the heck is it?

....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Hulk

Many people think the first edition was better. I would go further and say that the first edition plus the extra weapons from Deathwing was good, and the Librarian and psychic rules, and variant genestealers, were rubbish.

Yo quiero Exterminadores Grandes

Scottywan82 wrote:If IG releases in April/May, where are the pictures?

IG are May, so pictures should come out March. Have a little patience.
____

gorgon wrote:the number of Tyranid players at a GT didn't change much from 2nd edition to 3rd edition. After the 4th edition codex was released, things changed due to the popularity (due to army strength and ease of build) of Nidzilla armies.

IMO, the best analogy for DE is still Wood Elves.

QFT on both points.
____

gorgon wrote:GW's only costs would be development costs,

Mind you, I still think DE are on the way. GW will want to add a "new" army to 40K at some point, and totally revamped DE could essentially do that while having some existing collectors to dampen some of the risk.

Generally agreed on both, but it boggles the mind that they would green-light development if they weren't planning to release.

But I think GW's most significant costs are opportunity costs. GW has exactly 12 release slots per year, of which no more than 5 or 6 can be spent on 40k. Given the scarcity of 40k release slots, each one needs to be a solid money-maker.

Thus 2009 has Orks Wave 2, Apocalypse Wave 3, and Imperial Guard. Planetstrike probably carries additional Apoc & IG momentum, which is why it's released now, as opposed to 2008. SW SM are at the "safe" end of the year slot, when GW is going to get loads of Christmas money anyways.

Tho if GW is doing a new army, I'd really rather see LatD / Traitor Guard come up. IMO, that has tremendous potential for all players.
____

Steelmage99 wrote:"We release a new army (Dark Eldar) with a thin-ass codex and but-ugly miniatures....and then we'll leave it alone for several years".

To be fair, DE had a "standard" 3E Codex (the skinny books in 3E were BA/DA/SW), and the minis were more-or-less par for late 2E sculpting (cf. pre-3E Nids and Necrons).

GW gave DE a *very* fair shot in 3E, and their Codex has always been competitive.
____

George Spiggott wrote:We don't know they've got that far, we know that Jes Goodwin is/was working on the plastics but with GW's current technology this could mean that they still only exist as computer models waiting to become moulds. In a similar fashion the 'finished' Codex may exist merely as a PDF on Jervis' Computer. As far as the Studio is concerned both the plastics and codex are finished.

Dark Eldar Players have been waiting a decade now, there's no rush.

I agree. Though with GW's new CAD/CAM technology, the DE "sculpts" might just be CAD/CAM models, along with a stripped-down ruleset that hasn't even been typeset.

After a decade it's hard to imagine that GW could "rush" a DE release.

yakface wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.

Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.

Eric

Yes I actually had.


Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.

Huzzah!

Kilkrazy wrote:

Hammerziet wrote:Also forgive me for not going bananas at Space hulk but what the heck is it?

....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Hulk

Many people think the first edition was better. I would go further and say that the first edition plus the extra weapons from Deathwing was good, and the Librarian and psychic rules, and variant genestealers, were rubbish.

I'm with you on this one, though I really would like some expanded rules (psykers!) and units in the 'new' Edition too...

NecronLord3 wrote:Yeah, just like when someone said Necrons didn't sell well either! After 8 years without a codex update and only 1 new model after the initial release, of course sales are down. Duh!

I sure saw a LOT of Necron armies when the Necron phalanx was the toughest thing in the game. Now that they've fallen back to the pack (at best), you see a lot of them for sale on Bartertown.

Of course, that must be incorrect, because it implies people buy armies based on their power level, and we all know the only players with that mindset are the 0.000000000000001% that play in tournaments. Jervis said so.

JohnHwangDD wrote:Tho if GW is doing a new army, I'd really rather see LatD / Traitor Guard come up. IMO, that has tremendous potential for all players.

I predict we'll see a brand-new SM army get a full codex treatment (i.e. not SW, BT, DA or BA) before LatD happen. From everything I've heard and been told, they're really set against it. I don't know the reason. I half-believe the more customers ask for it, the more they dig in their heels. The good news is that the studio seems to get a shakeup every so often, and with some new faces a champion for the army might emerge.

To be fair, DE had a "standard" 3E Codex (the skinny books in 3E were BA/DA/SW), and the minis were more-or-less par for late 2E sculpting (cf. pre-3E Nids and Necrons).

GW gave DE a *very* fair shot in 3E, and their Codex has always been competitive.

I think it's better to say they gave them a fair shot, but with a subpar product, all-around.

They introduced DE in a starter box in which they were *grossly* outclassed by the other army in the box. Yeah, that'll hook 'em. Not that you'd ever get anyone at GW to admit publicly that customers buy based on what kicks a$$ on the table.

The codex was only competitive on the strength of certain units. Most of the book was garbage even after the redux codex was released years later.

And as we've discussed on this forum before, DE weren't what the customer base was expecting (which was Chaos Eldar). Which is fine, except that the fluff was so sparse, no one really knew what they were. Seems insignificant, but IMO players also buy based on what hooks their imagination. And I'm not sure there was enough there to really inspire people.

So they had a poor introduction, a bad codex, sparse fluff and miniatures that didn't hold up. I agree that they produced the entire line of miniatures, promoted them in WD and kept them on the shelves for a while, but the product was still lacking. I don't agree that it was a case where the product was good but just not to people's taste. If I thought the minis were still pretty good and the codex and fluff was well-conceived, I'd say axe them. But I just don't feel that way.

Continuing on the WE analogy for DE, WE were pushed back due to the release of the Ogre Kingdoms Army Book so it is possible that DE are being pushed back despite being nearly finished.

But I don't think they are cancelled entirely, that wouldn't make sense.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

@gorgon:

Yeah, it's completely nuts how they won't do Traitor Guard / LatD of some sort. This is an army that needs numbers, and moves other neat stuff as well. Take Guard mobs and CSM, add Mutants and generic Daemons, make everything markable and you're done!

WRT DE in 3E, other Codices had similar unnevenness in playability. C: Eldar was only about half-playable. But yeah, non-Chaos "Dark" Eldar was not delivering against expectations, and that may have been the worst of it. But again, I don't think DE were any worse than the other old stuff. Go back to when Necrons were introduced, and you'll see what I mean.

With Ogres and Tau, GW learned a *lot* about how to introduce a new army, and that showed in the sales.

Considering that in a lot of the fluff, it's imperial vs. cult (chaos, genestealer, or just a general uprising), it's a shame they don't build an army around that. And it could easily be a 'count as' for other 'cultish' type armies.

HQ - human (with option to upgrade stats by either chaos gifts or being a hybrid)
Elite - slow, tough, big stuff (mutants or ? mini-carnies?)
Troops - masses of poorly trained troops (cultists)
a few units of renegade guard/PDF (traitors)
FA - fast killy stuff (daemons or stealers)
Heavy - looted tanks or 'big, slow, bug' (daemon prince or carnifex, etc.)

While it might not be a perfect match (maybe the FA is Init 5 vs 6 for stealers) it could easily work as a 'count as'.

It would also let people do armies like Ad Mech (fast killy stuff is cyborgs, robots - whatever) and have something that works well for them.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@gorgon:

Yeah, it's completely nuts how they won't do Traitor Guard / LatD of some sort. This is an army that needs numbers, and moves other neat stuff as well. Take Guard mobs and CSM, add Mutants and generic Daemons, make everything markable and you're done!

Step 1: Make LatD
Step 2: ??
Step 3: Profit!!

Silly GW, it's so easy!

Ozymandias, King of Kings

yakface wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.

Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.

Eric

Yes I actually had.


Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.

Does it include 3d plastic tiles?

Makes me wonder what the price tag and contents ratio will be. I'm especially looking forward to finding out just how big a hulk sector you can create with the enclosed tiles.

They're probably not enclosed. Just thick plastic for the halls and door frames with slotted doors. The rooms might be built up.

JohnHwangDD wrote:WRT DE in 3E, other Codices had similar unnevenness in playability. C: Eldar was only about half-playable. But yeah, non-Chaos "Dark" Eldar was not delivering against expectations, and that may have been the worst of it. But again, I don't think DE were any worse than the other old stuff.

I agree. Seems completely messed up to me that the 2nd Edition quality, semi-functional, "as bad as the other old stuff" DE Codex to which you refer, is the very same one DE players STILL have to use today...

@Archonate: No worse than the pups...

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Archonate: No worse than the pups...

Yeah. Spacewolves have it so rough by being given errata to use many of the new SM rules.

Poor things. Whatever will this neglected SM army do?

Oh wait, sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt the SW pity fest. Continue on as if you had no knowledge that they are getting a codex late this year.

SW vs DE again. Never thought I'd long for the days when every thread would degenerate into rants about the CSM codex.

To be fair, there has ben very little SW mentioned in this thread, but yes it does seem that a lot of threads are turning into 'whatever happened to the DE?' reminisces

That's because:
- none of us care about Fantasy or LotR
- we've been over the Stompa & Shadowsword
- Guard is tricking out and we're reacting in other threads
- it's waaay too early to discuss Woofs

and...
- the OP specifically called out DE, which always touches a nerve.

So we need to let the emotion drain out cathartically.

dietrich wrote:Considering that in a lot of the fluff, it's imperial vs. cult (chaos, genestealer, or just a general uprising), it's a shame they don't build an army around that. And it could easily be a 'count as' for other 'cultish' type armies.

HQ - human (with option to upgrade stats by either chaos gifts or being a hybrid)
Elite - slow, tough, big stuff (mutants or ? mini-carnies?)
Troops - masses of poorly trained troops (cultists)
a few units of renegade guard/PDF (traitors)
FA - fast killy stuff (daemons or stealers)
Heavy - looted tanks or 'big, slow, bug' (daemon prince or carnifex, etc.)

While it might not be a perfect match (maybe the FA is Init 5 vs 6 for stealers) it could easily work as a 'count as'.

It would also let people do armies like Ad Mech (fast killy stuff is cyborgs, robots - whatever) and have something that works well for them.

I would like to see a "Rebel" codex covering non-Chaos human rebellion forces, supported by Genestealers, cults, Tau or any other general do-badders who might help a human world that rebelled against rightful authority. You could even do a rebel Imperial Loyalist cult army who were rebelling in the name of the Emperor against corrupt officials supported by regular IG.

There would be lots of options for customising the army in different directions depending on the alien/cult support, with loaned alien technology, ally units and so on. You could even have a loyalist rebellion supported by local SM or other Imperial agencies. In other words, a kind of non-Chaos Imperial civil war.

Kilkrazy wrote:I would like to see a "Rebel" codex covering non-Chaos human rebellion forces, supported by Genestealers, cults, Tau or any other general do-badders who might help a human world that rebelled against rightful authority.

Wait, wait, wait... Tau are bad guys?

Rightful authority?

@Kilkrazy: Thanks for the early morning laugh.

LittleLeadMen wrote:Are you really thanking Babelfish for the translation, or were you being sarcastic? Because that's a pretty crap translation job. Yes, we can understand (kind of) what its talking about, but seriously, that's awkward english, at best.

you don't spend nearly enough time reading translations, for a free computer program, that's awesome.

Kilkrazy wrote:I would like to see a "Rebel" codex covering non-Chaos human rebellion forces, supported by Genestealers, cults, Tau or any other general do-badders who might help a human world that rebelled against rightful authority. You could even do a rebel Imperial Loyalist cult army who were rebelling in the name of the Emperor against corrupt officials supported by regular IG.

There would be lots of options for customising the army in different directions depending on the alien/cult support, with loaned alien technology, ally units and so on. You could even have a loyalist rebellion supported by local SM or other Imperial agencies. In other words, a kind of non-Chaos Imperial civil war.

Lots of people would like it. Sadly, GW's current design philosophy seems to be 'options are bad' so it's not a very likely option...

Although, I guess they could have special characters like Cultist McGenestealer, Mr. Chaosspacemarine, and Heretic-Commisar Tausympathizer.

Hordini wrote:
But really, a poor track record with DE in the past is no reason they can't do very well in the future, as long as they fix the problems that they had (crappy models, crappy codex) and market them well before, during, and after their release. And army, even and army like DE, with good models and good codex is a whole different animal really. Plus, once they get a new release, I'm sure GW stores will start carrying them again, and the special order only crap will be a thing of the past.

Assuming there's any truth to this rumor, here's how it would go.

GW knows their market can support about 6 major releases a year (numbers are made up).

Like all companies, they know that past sales are a good predictor of future sales. Not a completely accurate one, but a good one. If we call Space Marine sales 100, they know Chaos sales are 80, Eldar are 70 and so on, and so on down to Dark Eldar which by all reports were not good sellers.

Knowing this year is going to be tough for every company they look at their options.

Sure, MAYBE Dark Eldar will break all historical patterns (they were released 10 years ago) and MAYBE they will be hottest thing since Jessica Alba but... why take the chance?

Their models no doubt predict Space Wolves or Planet Strike will outsell Dark Eldar and 2009 is not looking like the year to gamble a quarter's earnings on a dicey product.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:....and 2009 is not looking like the year to gamble a quarter's earnings on a dicey product.

What are you talking about? BarackMessiah is here to save the world. That's right... the world.

I think the biggest thing keeping LATD from being released is that the bean-counters can't tell that it is selling.

Same thing with mixed forces...Chaos being split apart (daemons vs mortals vs beasts/daemons vs CSM) is part of that same coin.

I think you kind of miss the point Ozy:

Step 1: Make rules for LatD. Allow for use of CSM, IG vehicles and daemon models already in existance, as well as conversions of standard IG infantry.

Step 2: Produce "LotD Upgrade Kit" with bits to change standard infantry and vehicles to be more naughty.

Step 3: Make a few new kits with special units, such as hive scum (with a Necromunda feel) and cultists (sort of a 40k flagellants), as well as some new vehicles or whatever. Whatever the choice, some multi part plastics that would be great for conversions.

Step 4: Make a few special character metals.

Step 5: Watch how the introduction of a 100 page book, 2-6 plastic kits and upgrade sets spurs sales on many different lines of models, lines which historically are not necessarily top sellers. Enjoy watching the return on investment of many other lines of models improve and work towards the return one expects for Space Marines.

Step 6: Profit.


See, I filled in some of the blanks you were uncertain about.

chaplaingrabthar wrote:To be fair, there has ben very little SW mentioned in this thread, but yes it does seem that a lot of threads are turning into 'whatever happened to the DE?' reminisces

In my humble opinion, that's because most of the wargear for Space Wolves says refer to the Space Marine Codex, which is very mighty.