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For better or worse, I think Kid Kyoto's got it right on the money. When DE were first released, the economy was going strong - like gangbusters. Add to that the fact that GW wasn't seeing a whole lot of competition in the miniatures wargaming market. Warmachine hadn't appeared yet and FOW wasn't around to compete for market share (granted, there was some pretty heft competition with the CCG market, but that's apples to oranges in some ways - indirect competition vs direct). In today's climate, the economy's a whole lot more volatile and GW's got more direct competition - can you blame GW for wanting to go the safer route of releasing old, proven favorites - IG, SW, Skaven, BA, 'Nids?

skyth wrote:I think the biggest thing keeping LATD from being released is that the bean-counters can't tell that it is selling.

True. However, the vibe I get is that none of the designers are even interested in pitching the idea to the business side. I find it weird just because LatD are so intrinsically 40K with all their gothic, chaotic, religious weirdness. I mean, if you can't find anything there to work with...

Ah well.

Anyway the point is (getting this sort of but not really back on topic) that as I understand things, the designers definitely have a say in the process. So if you want a given project to move forward, you probably need a champion in the studio, and someone on the business side buying what the designer is selling.

That's why I think DE will move forward at some point...Jes and Phil Kelly are on the job.

gorgon wrote:That's why I think DE will move forward at some point...Jes and Phil Kelly are on the job.

I have a feeling that if both Jes and Phil are pushing for it, it will happen.

yakface wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Some of these rumors are obviously cr@p, which makes the whole dang thing suspect.

Had anyone heard anything about new Space Hulk this year before this thread? I know I hadn't.

Eric

Yes I actually had.


Space Hulk is indeed being worked on, so if you believe me, that rumor is true and given that it is my favorite game of all time (at least the 1st version of it), I'll be very excited when they finally do release it.

You, sir, HAVE earned the trust I have in you.

You've heard it's being worked on... have you heard that it's a 2009 release?

Eric

Wehrkind wrote:I think you kind of miss the point Ozy:

Step 1: Make rules for LatD. Allow for use of CSM, IG vehicles and daemon models already in existance, as well as conversions of standard IG infantry.

Step 2: Produce "LotD Upgrade Kit" with bits to change standard infantry and vehicles to be more naughty.

Step 3: Make a few new kits with special units, such as hive scum (with a Necromunda feel) and cultists (sort of a 40k flagellants), as well as some new vehicles or whatever. Whatever the choice, some multi part plastics that would be great for conversions.

Step 4: Make a few special character metals.

Step 5: Watch how the introduction of a 100 page book, 2-6 plastic kits and upgrade sets spurs sales on many different lines of models, lines which historically are not necessarily top sellers. Enjoy watching the return on investment of many other lines of models improve and work towards the return one expects for Space Marines.

Step 6: Profit.


See, I filled in some of the blanks you were uncertain about.

You should snail mail this over to GW.

What you outlined is spot on, clear and so obvious (and simple!) that I just can't see why GW hasn't already done this, or worst case, why they won't do this.

ASAP.

I think you missed my point Wehrkind. What you just wrote isn't easy and isn't a sure thing by any means. Plus, there's really no way to track the sales for just that codex. You could track the upgrade kit sales but not the original IG box sets.

Everyone keeps saying, "Just do this and this and everyone will buy it" and I really don't think it's that simple.

Ozymandias, King of Kings

LatD may be a case of being too much of a 'general purpose' army as well. While a few factions may be in the game due to being part of the game's story, most are there to fulfill a function, at least theoretically. Eldar are ultra-specialized, Space Marines are the midpoint, Orks and Tyranids are both flavors of horde close combat... perhaps GW don't see a niche for LatD, despite them being more flavorful than a lot of other ideas?

(I still think that if 40k was being rebooted, LatD should be the default 'Chaos' army with CSM as elites.)

IMO, the opportunity was there to allow LatD players to continue using some of their models, even if a LatD codex wasn't going to happen. The CSM book could have been a true "renegades" book by adding Traitors and a few gribblies, like you describe. Then the Daemons book could have been a true Daemonworld book with the inclusion of Mutants (which live on Daemonworlds in vast numbers according to the fluff). Top it off with a Legions book with a CSM focus and coverage of the cult chapters, and it would have been a better overall treatment of Chaos, IMO.

Anyhoo, no one picked up that ball and ran with it, so here we are. I suggested more than once that we should take up a collection and bribe Phil Kelly into become the studio champion for LatD. Everyone would win.

@Ozymandias -- I'd bet the objections to LatD on the business side had more to do with them not being newbie-friendly. In GW's ideal world, little Billy picks a codex, selects a few units from it, and walks over to the rack of clearly-marked plastic boxed sets with all unit options on sprue. LatD weren't nearly so easy. My gut says it's about marketing more than sales.

@Ozy: If done like BT, each upgrade kit requires a Guard kit.

If I were re-releasing LatD, it'd be:

Latd Wave 1 - core HQ & Troops
- metal characters
- Traitor Guard upgrade kit for Cadians
- Mutant Guard upgrade kit for Catachans
- plastic Cultists (like the new WFB models)
- Assault Transport using Chimera chassis

Latd Wave 2 - special Elites & Heavy
- Blood Pact upgrade conversion kit for Stormtroopers
- Daemon Engine using Defiler chassis

The heavy use of conversion kits and sprue swaps (e.g. Daemon Engine vs Soulgrinder vs Defiler) keeps cost down.

Something like this makes it easy for GW to track a goodly chunk of the sales.

Markable lesser Daemons, Markable CSM, Plague Zombies, etc. are kind of "bonus" sales that become semi-inferrable based on historical sales along with special stuff like the Daemon Engine so that the marginal additional profit advantage becomes clear.

I think the fate of LatD is tied to the lack of a studio champion for it's creation into a real standalone product (or inclusion in some form in another army, ala Andy Chambers getting SoB to stay via WH codex).

I also think they really believe IG can sub for traitor guard and that is all LatD seems to be to them.

Problem has more to do with the background in my opinion. For the most part chaos has always been made up of chaos space marines and daemons, sometimes cultists. Sure the novels and more serious background are more bang on with the cultist and traitor forming the bulk of most chaos forces, but the mainstream background outside of BL seems to hint more towards chaos marines and daemons being the main force that attacks every world from within and without. Just look at the battle for Vogen for example.

I can see why GW has pushed the Lost and the Damned to the realms of Apocalypse, not a popular choice but it does make for easier army creation without requiring the studio to do much of the actual work.

Of course, we don't know what's in the new IG codex. If there are penal legions and/or conscripts, that might fill the 'great unwashed masses' that generally fills the cult-army ranks. Throw in Ogryns that are worth fielding, and you have Ogryns and/or big mutants and/or hybrid monstrosity. IG tanks = traitor tanks.

BrookM wrote:Problem has more to do with the background in my opinion. For the most part chaos has always been made up of chaos space marines and daemons, sometimes cultists. Sure the novels and more serious background are more bang on with the cultist and traitor forming the bulk of most chaos forces, but the mainstream background outside of BL seems to hint more towards chaos marines and daemons being the main force that attacks every world from within and without. Just look at the battle for Vogen for example.

Actually, Chaos became CSM-focused with the release of the 2nd ed. Codex: Chaos. Before that, they were more of a mishmash army. And even that Codex: Chaos had supplemental Daemonworld and Cultist army lists in the back. Chaos was definitely not originally all-CSM, all the time. Not that I'm saying things shouldn't be allowed to change. I'm just pointing out your "always" statement wasn't accurate.

Maybe GW is just tired of all their 'bad-guy' archetypes being affiliated with Chaos... I know I am. The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me. Don't we already have this army in one form of another?

I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.) but, again, that also seems redundant with what we already have...

Archonate wrote:Maybe GW is just tired of all their 'bad-guy' archetypes being affiliated with Chaos... I know I am. The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me. Don't we already have this army in one form of another?
I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.) but, again, that also seems redundant with what we already have...

Um, no, we don't actually. At least, not anymore.

Which is the whole point, really, of a lot of the LatD conversation in this thread!

Combining JohnHwangDD and Wehrkind's ideas sound pretty good too!

Archonate wrote:Maybe GW is just tired of all their 'bad-guy' archetypes being affiliated with Chaos... I know I am.

40k isn't a very subtle place. Simpler is better.

Archonate wrote:The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me.

Nomoreso than, say, Chaos Eldar who aren't Chaos...

Archonate wrote:Don't we already have this army in one form of another?

A zillion Internet sigatures say HELL, NO!

Archonate wrote:I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.)

"Beanstealer cults"?

Are they led by a Special Character with Magic Beans with a Special Rule when you pull his finger?

Archonate wrote:I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.) but, again, that also seems redundant with what we already have...

Frakkin Beanstealers! They assaulted Tacobellia IV and the place was never the same afterward!

Ypur idea that Chaos amy be considered too prevalent may be valid. This is probably why someone earlier suggested making a generic 'renegade human' codex that could be Genestealer cults, LatD, or just anti-Imperial separatists.

Balance wrote:Ypur idea that Chaos amy be considered too prevalent may be valid. This is probably why someone earlier suggested making a generic 'renegade human' codex that could be Genestealer cults, LatD, or just anti-Imperial separatists.

That was me! Thank you, thank you very much. GW won't do a generic codex though, they'll only do one if they have a line of minis to go with it - which means it's a specific army. But, if they did something like Genestealer Cult, it'd be a great 'count as' army for LatD, a religious uprising of the populace against the heretical governor, etc.

Sadly, I don't think it'll ever happen.

dietrich wrote:

Balance wrote:Ypur idea that Chaos amy be considered too prevalent may be valid. This is probably why someone earlier suggested making a generic 'renegade human' codex that could be Genestealer cults, LatD, or just anti-Imperial separatists.

That was me! Thank you, thank you very much. GW won't do a generic codex though, they'll only do one if they have a line of minis to go with it - which means it's a specific army. But, if they did something like Genestealer Cult, it'd be a great 'count as' army for LatD, a religious uprising of the populace against the heretical governor, etc.

Sadly, I don't think it'll ever happen.

I think a Codex: Cults would be a more likely approach. Make it more open for any sort of Cult/Uprising/Joining the Greater Good.
HQs would be a Rogue Psyker, a Fanatical Leader-esque character(like the Apostate from C:WH), and a generic Summoned/Alien/Techno Monster entry(for Patriarch/Daemon/Modified Ogryn bodyguard).
Elites would be corrupted Arbites/carapace bodyguard/alien mercs/benefactors, some sort of big mutant/Ogryn/Spawn squad, and rending and fleeting unit for 'Stealers(or other alien)/Daemons/Combat Servitors.
Troops would be PDF platoons and Mutant/Hybrid/Fanatical mobs.
Fast Attack would be some PDF Sentinels and other gear(Hellhounds?), PDF Armoured Fist squads, maybe Attack Dogs, maybe some sort of local made half-track with heavy weapons vehicle unit
Heavy Support would be PDF Tanks(Basilisk, LR, Demolisher), some sort of Walker(Daemon engine, Penitent Engine-esque creation), PDF Heavy Weapons platoon

JohnHwangDD wrote:

Archonate wrote:The concept of LatD just seems redundant to me.

Nomoreso than, say, Chaos Eldar who aren't Chaos...

I'm speaking in terms of play style. And incidentally DE are probably the single most unique army in the game in that respect.

Archonate wrote:I do like the idea of other traitor armies that aren't influenced by Chaos (Beanstealer cults, tau defectors, etc.)

"Beanstealer cults"?

Are they led by a Special Character with Magic Beans with a Special Rule when you pull his finger?

I meant what I typed. And disrespecting Beanstealers makes the Jive Tyrant angry.

Platuan4th wrote:I think a Codex: Cults would be a more likely approach. Make it more open for any sort of Cult/Uprising/Joining the Greater Good.
HQs would be a Rogue Psyker, a Fanatical Leader-esque character(like the Apostate from C:WH), and a generic Summoned/Alien/Techno Monster entry(for Patriarch/Daemon/Modified Ogryn bodyguard).
Elites would be corrupted Arbites/carapace bodyguard/alien mercs/benefactors, some sort of big mutant/Ogryn/Spawn squad, and rending and fleeting unit for 'Stealers(or other alien)/Daemons/Combat Servitors.
Troops would be PDF platoons and Mutant/Hybrid/Fanatical mobs.
Fast Attack would be some PDF Sentinels and other gear(Hellhounds?), PDF Armoured Fist squads, maybe Attack Dogs, maybe some sort of local made half-track with heavy weapons vehicle unit
Heavy Support would be PDF Tanks(Basilisk, LR, Demolisher), some sort of Walker(Daemon engine, Penitent Engine-esque creation), PDF Heavy Weapons platoon

See this would be great. A Codex which allows you to truly customize your own cult. And it would serve to cover many bases at once so GW doesn't have to crank out like 5 different ones and take up our precious annual new release slots.

Archonate wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:"Beanstealer cults"?

Are they led by a Special Character with Magic Beans with a Special Rule when you pull his finger?

I meant what I typed. And disrespecting Beanstealers makes the Jive Tyrant angry.

Thanks, I needed that!

Well, I guess I'll throw my two cents in on LaTD before this thread gets locked for going wildly off topic.

I see the points for both sides and agree with each to a certain extent. For the the pros of such a force it would really allow a large variety of other sub-armies to be fielded officially. Ad Mech, for one, could probably be made quite easily and others with a little imagination, I'm sure.

That said, I do see why they haven't been made. They don't fill a specific role as far as an army type goes. They wouldn't really have a set model range as conversions, at least for me, is a big part of the appeal of LaTD. So, as stated earlier in the thread they are not a "beginner friendly" army. Then there's the guaranteed criticism GW would take for releasing this army before updating other, more mainstream armies got codex and model updates.

Now I would love to see LaTD, don't get me wrong. In fact, I just ordered a ton of stuff the other day to start a LaTD army using the Daemon Codex as the template. But I completely understand why they aren't a big priority, if it's something that's even being discussed as an option by GW at all.

I think a "Dogs of War" Codex would be a cool idea and possibly more marketable than a LaTD codex, while still allowing it to be used for LatD. But again, it's probably not a priority. They said no new armies until all others get updates and I really hope they stick to that as much as I'd personally love something new. There's a lot of current players who need love first, namely Dark Eldar.

Heck, LaTD would just need an "official" ruleset in WD, and then the rest could be converted.
Stoked for Space Hulk!