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I am pretty sure no one has advocated going all LC other than with BA. We have had lots of advocates for all TH/SS though.

I run a 5 man squad,all TH/SS.I just cannot get away from that nice 3+ invulnerable,no matter the opponent.

I believe in mixing them up with a preponderance of lightning claws. the storm shield is the better half of the th/ss combination imo... the 3++ is basically defensive since rerolling 4+ to wounds (70-80% of the time) is only slightly worse than wounding on 2's and it's at init 4 which means you're more likely to get the swing with them than the init 1 thunder hammers. If you're fighting a wraith lord or whatever you still have a few cracks with the thunder hammers. I just dont like swinging last on principle.

So my opinion more lc than th/ss but def have some th/ss guys in there.
AF

as pointed out earlier. When fighting anything though, which is what you should be using your termies against, the LC is totally crap. Against Nobs the will alcolate the wounds so it doesnt make a difference. Against MCs you will be wounding on 5 or 6s and not seldom strike after the MC even with a LC.

yes but str 8 at init 1 doesnt matter if you get wiped out at init 4. Lightning Claws fix that. AF

if you get wiped out at init 4 you must have REALLY bad saving throws

AbaddonFidelis wrote:yes but str 8 at init 1 doesnt matter if you get wiped out at init 4. Lightning Claws fix that. AF

yeah, thats a totally realistic scenarion mind giving me an example of a situation where that is likely?

Only time it happened to me was when I got charged by a ten man squad of Black Templar Terminators.

They couldn't pass over 20 invulnerable saves.

but the BTs have furious charge so they would strike at I5 so would strik before the LC termies anyway. So while you stand a small chance of not getting roflstomped by such a unit a LC squad will most certainly not stand a chance

when in doubt take storm shields for the saves!

The only time I've been wiped at I 4 with my TH/SH termies is when GKT charged me. 15 WS 5 S6 power weapons do a number, and I got unlucky with the invul saves. Meh, it happens. LC guys would have been better in that situation (still would have died, but inflicted return damage), but wouldn't have done anything against the dreds I had gotten done killing.

I still think the mix is best. Even if you only use 1LC with an IC in the squad, it seems worth it to me to have it in there. That way you can cut down on the attacks that are coming your way when you are down on the initiative. Not to mention that my main enemies are orks, chaos marines and tau. The I4 has really been nice for me.

Nantukoshade wrote:I still think the mix is best. Even if you only use 1LC with an IC in the squad, it seems worth it to me to have it in there. That way you can cut down on the attacks that are coming your way when you are down on the initiative. Not to mention that my main enemies are orks, chaos marines and tau. The I4 has really been nice for me.

Again, the mix is only good if you plan on using your assault terminators on a very large group of "normal" troops then I agree they would be a must, but I would say that would be a poor use for them.

If you think you will get jumped by some garbage (or at least toughness 6 or less models) maybe after you are part way chewing through your main target (say a dreadnuaght, but you would need to kill at least a couple) but I would be killing the LC's before the TH's and you would probably still be in rough shape when you get jumped during/after you kill the big tough target. Some drop pod options are available ("open top" so no assault issues but you hoof it after that) or "walking" them next to troops but it would be iffy they would pay for themselves but LC's would most likely be needed due to anything can get you after the initial assault.

Use hero's attached to the terminator unit to do that, typically a WS=5 I=5 S=4 A=4+ (Usually 4+ Inv save, depending on kit) with a power weapon OR give him a pair of lightening claws (hurts not to use the BS=5) should do a great job thinning the garbage AND usually first strike while a full squad of TH can hurt the tough stuff that sticks around.

Beaming is a bad choice to engage; you cannot assault after and makes big fat shooting target and good luck catching anything. Normal terminators are in their glory by this method because they can shoot as soon as they beam in.

The Land Raider "should" let you choose your battles and could help block/intercept any cheap stuff that wants to jump your terminators. I have found this the ideal option for assault terminators and precious little use elsewhere.

Does this make sense? I really have tried other methods as you described and was disappointed. Some description of methods where you really toasted their points worth would be good to hear but all that dice on first or simultaneous attack with wound re-rolls sounds like fun but hard to pull off. A Captain with lightening claws or the two handed sword and storm shield makes fun combo's (waste of cost with the shield but hard to say no to an extra +1 inv save).

tedur. sure. fighting blood letters. Even with a 3++ save your guys arent as safe as you think.
High intiative saves more lives than good invuln saves. they cant hurt you if theyre dead.
AF

except I4 isn't high. Against other Meqs you go at the same time, and some units are faster (like units with furious charge, or eldar or better Initiative). Blood angels? Sure, give those termies LC and furious charge and have some fun (though BA can assault more efficiently elsewhere in the codex) Regular termies? meh. You shouldn't be using them to go after troops, or high I guys. You have shooting and/or other assault units for the troops, and shooting for the high I guys (most units with I5 or higher have crap saves)

well imo terminators are the go to guys for assault. given the right gear they should be able to do any job. yeah terminators with lightning claws and furious charge rock. I just dont like the defensive mindset of relying on a 3++ saves. Yes 3++ saves keep your guys from dying like 2/3 of the time. Killing the badguys also keeps your guys from dying 3/3 of the time. Go aggressive. Slay them all.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:tedur. sure. fighting blood letters. Even with a 3++ save your guys arent as safe as you think.
High intiative saves more lives than good invuln saves. they cant hurt you if theyre dead.
AF

So your telling me that you usually assault blood letters with your LC termies? In order to strike simultaneously you have to assault them. That sounds like a horrible tactic. A unit which has a 12 in threath range in an army with poor ranged AV there is no need to have your Terminators a fight with Blodletters its just plain stupid.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AbaddonFidelis wrote:well imo terminators are the go to guys for assault. given the right gear they should be able to do any job. yeah terminators with lightning claws and furious charge rock. I just dont like the defensive mindset of relying on a 3++ saves. Yes 3++ saves keep your guys from dying like 2/3 of the time. Killing the badguys also keeps your guys from dying 3/3 of the time. Go aggressive. Slay them all.
AF

Yes and with LCs you wont be doing much slaying at all. Walkers will tarpit you, Nobz will beat the crap out of you, MC will strike before you and youll wound on 5s or 6s ect ect

terdur.
I didnt say go all lightning claws.
the comparison was between lc and th/ss against blood letters. lc are better in that situation.
read.
AF

AbaddonFidelis wrote:terdur.
I didnt say go all lightning claws.
the comparison was between lc and th/ss against blood letters. lc are better in that situation.
read.
AF

why am I wasting my time
I just pointed out that there are very few (if any) instances where LCs are better than TH&SS vs bloodletters...the only situation where a LC is VERY marginaly better is when they charge you and you are in cover. Quite obviously that very special situation does not warrant any inclusion of LC termies.

in a take all comers, i suppose a combo leaning slightly on the TH's side would be best (as in 3TH 2LC). but what about a unit in a landraider (prefferably crusader)?

going against models with power weapons and initiative 2 3 or 4 is a special situation.....? huh?
I want to play against the noobz you play ted

It must be nice playing where there are no.... guard officers, commisars, assault terminators, command squads, chaplains, captains, chapter masters, librarians, vulkan, lysander, khan, shrike, calgar, cato, terminators, wolf guard, logan, ragnar, azael, belial, deathwing terminators, death company, chosen, lords, sorcerer, blood crushers, blood letters, blood thirster, great unclean one, lord of change, burna boyz, canonness, arco flagelants, grey knight terminators, demon hosts, inquisitors......

now that's a mouthfull

Well, I take Assault Termies with th/ss, no lightning claws at all.
I won several RTTs with my vanilla SM including such a unit
and it always performed great.

is that with LR or without?

I am very experienced with these, and in a 5 man squad, there is no better way than 3x TH/SS & 2x LC

Meh I like 4x Th/SS and 1x LC better when there is an IC in there with I4+ attacks.

You don't need that many Lightning claws against the targets you are really worried about.

agree. mix is best.

But what about in a LR when you can pick you'r fights?

Personally I don't think you can beat 5 TH/SS charging out of a land raider.

Sure you might lose one terminator to a lucky hit, but otherwise you're guaranteed to slaughter the opponent.

AbaddonFidelis wrote:going against models with power weapons and initiative 2 3 or 4 is a special situation.....? huh?
I want to play against the noobz you play ted

It must be nice playing where there are no.... guard officers, commisars, assault terminators, command squads, chaplains, captains, chapter masters, librarians, vulkan, lysander, khan, shrike, calgar, cato, terminators, wolf guard, logan, ragnar, azael, belial, deathwing terminators, death company, chosen, lords, sorcerer, blood crushers, blood letters, blood thirster, great unclean one, lord of change, burna boyz, canonness, arco flagelants, grey knight terminators, demon hosts, inquisitors......

Yes, because with a few LCs you will munch trough enough basic guards men in order to get to the officers and commisars?
Most of the other stuff you have posted there is I5 or more which was my point. There are a few instances where the LC is better but they are not numerous enough to warant the loss of efficiency vs the vast majority of targets.

1 LC might sometimes be helpful, anything more than that and you are wasting terminators