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So my eldar army really did fall of the back of a cargo ship into the ocean.......

VikingScott wrote:So my eldar army really did fall of the back of a cargo ship into the ocean.......

When I was stationed in Germany, it was pretty much an accepted fact of life that anything you had shipped over had a good chance of "falling off the boat". Suspiciously, it always seemed to be nice cars,motorcycles, furniture and random items that were hard to get/expensive in Europe. An MP that worked in customs told us that it was most likely theft for black markets, but there was nothing they could do or prove, and anything lost would be compensated for at retail or Blue Book cost, in the case of cars. Always seemed to me like an insurance scam.

Back on topic, I think this makes good business sense for GW to do this. By featuring only their terrain, they have more opportunity to sell their product. Plenty of businesses due similar things.

I just hope this gives them impetus to make a better(no skulls please), cheaper($300 is outrageous) RoB board and more varied terrain (ie xenos terrain please)!

Apparently it is quite common for things to fall off container ships during storms. Chains can only hold so much.

Sadly my GW has kind of cruddy terrain. When I was there they are using mostly GW kits anyways.

NELS1031 wrote:

VikingScott wrote:So my eldar army really did fall of the back of a cargo ship into the ocean.......

When I was stationed in Germany, it was pretty much an accepted fact of life that anything you had shipped over had a good chance of "falling off the boat". Suspiciously, it always seemed to be nice cars,motorcycles, furniture and random items that were hard to get/expensive in Europe. An MP that worked in customs told us that it was most likely theft for black markets, but there was nothing they could do or prove, and anything lost would be compensated for at retail or Blue Book cost, in the case of cars. Always seemed to me like an insurance scam.

Heh, I remember when I was there a family was hitting the fleamarket one more time befpre PCSing (after their household goods shipped) when the wife spotted a bunch of her handcast ceramics that had just been shipped sitting at one of the booths. I lost a footlocker with all my ropes and climbing gear, a crossbow, knives, etc. I packed it and locked it, they never saw what was in it but it was the only item that didn't make it back to the US.

Anyways, on topic, guess I'll have to check out the local GW stores, see if there's anything the IFL can use.

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW's terrain has expanded quite a bit in recent years, and it's not hard to make detailed and versatile terrain using only GW kits.

Unless you use the Realm of Battle Battleboard.

As soon as you add that thing into the mix, each table becomes the same limited canvass and results in the same thing happening every time. Want to play a forest map? Ok, but you'll have those hills and skull pits. Wanna play a coastal map? Ok, but you'll have those hills and skull pits! How about an ice world? Ok, but you'll still have those hills and skull pits. A flat scarred wasteland, covered in craters and the remnants from orbital bombardments? Ok, but those hills and skull pits are always going to be there. What about a nice detailed urban land scape, filled with a nice grid-like map of the streets and buildings? Sounds great, but you'll have to work that around the ever-present hills and skull pits.

The RoB Board is anti-imagination, and if GW stores really have been ordered to get rid of everything that they cannot sell, then those tables will suffer for it.

I'm sorry if I sound rude, but it seems more like a lack of imagination on your part. I've seen plenty of beautiful RoB boards. For example, these two didn't like the skull pits either, and simply got rid of them with minimal conversion work:
- Lava Board
- Frozen Lake

Or you could just put a building/crater/forest/hill/trench/swamp/mountain on top of the pits or hills:
- Trench board WIP
- Balin's Tomb WIP (other angle)

And if you don't want the hills, you can also just get the set with the 2 flat panels or add some 2x2' MDF panels.

Now, if the board is worth the £125 pricetag is up to everyone to decide for themselves. The same could be said for most of the Forgeworld stuff. We just have an expensive hobby I'm afraid. I bought a RoB to save time now to have a nice quick moulded terrain, and I can always expand it later. If GW never releases new compatible panels, I can always make my own when I have more time.

Fair comment about imagination to convert the pit and hills.

But when forking out £125 it's a poor show if you have to improve it.

If you are going to do all that then it might as be as well just to get the raw materials and make your own anyways

Another factor regarding the price tag is the main market for the RoB would be people lacking confidence in their modelling skills.
Some folks are not going to feel comfortable chopping up expensive terrain. You have to be confident in your modelling abilities or swimming in dosh so you don't give a gakk if you pooch it up!

Redemption wrote:I'm sorry if I sound rude, but it seems more like a lack of imagination on your part. I've seen plenty of beautiful RoB boards. For example, these two didn't like the skull pits either, and simply got rid of them with minimal conversion work:
- Lava Board
- Frozen Lake

They look wonderful. And they're both the same. Different coats of paint, exactly the same terrain.

Who wants to play on the same terrain in each game?

Redemption wrote:Or you could just put a building/crater/forest/hill/trench/swamp/mountain on top of the pits or hills:
- Trench board WIP
- Balin's Tomb WIP (other angle)

Yeah... spend all that money on an RoB just to go out of my way to remove/alter the permanent terrain. If you're heavily converting the board to remove existing features and change things around, then that basically screams out what's wrong with the RoB board in the first place. Far cheaper to just make it yourself.

Redemption wrote:And if you don't want the hills, you can also just get the set with the 2 flat panels or add some 2x2' MDF panels.

Or just get MDF to begin with, and not waste time with over-priced plastic that costs even more to change.

Redemption wrote:I bought a RoB to save time now to have a nice quick moulded terrain, and I can always expand it later.

But the RoB isn't complete just as is. You still have to put terrain on it. What was stopping you from just having a flat piece of MDF, a few of the many types of mats that are sold out there (even GW's green textured cloth is quite good - I've got one of those) and then spending all that saved money on the terrain you had to buy anyway? Did you need the hills? Aren't the existing GW hills (some of which show up on the pictures you posted) good enough.

It's not a complete product. It's not a battlefield in a box type thing with enough to play a game on ('cept maybe Fantasy). What's 'quicker' about it, really?

Even in japan,this is happening.
Scratch build Terrain & Objective marker gone.
My local GW shop manager is really good at Scratch build & Conversion. I'm sad I cant see those terrains.

Where is creativity gone? Isn't that one of aspect of hobby which GW recommend? I saw lot scratch build thing in "PLANET STRIKE".

Very sad.

Once again:
The selling off of scratch-built terrain/objective markers is not a sign of them "banning creativity".

They sell off the stuff every few years, just so they can have room for making more.

Yet all the reports indicate that this is being done expressly to ensure that the only terrain in-store is GW produced and on sale to buy.

If that's wrong, then fine, but right now your fingers-in-the-damn defence of GW is starting to sound like a broken record.

The vast majority of the scratch-built stuff they sell off are things like swamps or small forests.

Anything bigger or more complex is usually sent to Warhammer World or a Battle Bunker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And for the record, since you're going to tout this as some kind of "blind faith" in the company?

If they've been doing it for years?

This is not a sudden change in company policy. This is something they've done to the point where it's reasonably predictable.

If its just a sell off to clear the backroom out then bugger, I wish I was already back home to pick up some cheap terrain.

If it is indicative of a policy change to replace the terrain in store with ROB boards and GW standard terrain then GW have finally removed my one remaining reason for going to a Gw store. To buy tools? Nope, cheaper elsewhere. Paint? Nope, cheaper elsewhere. Minis? Nope, cheaper online. The only reason I went was to play games on nice terrain and despite knowing I'd be better off buying online I ended up buying some paint/figs whilst I was there. If there is no nice terrain to go to the store for then I might as well play at home or try and set up some kind of gaming club.

Kanluwen wrote:Once again:
The selling off of scratch-built terrain/objective markers is not a sign of them "banning creativity".

No one has said anything about banning creativity. The lack of encouragement is the issue.
apologies if the whole post is in a quotes box
no idea why

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Once again:
The selling off of scratch-built terrain/objective markers is not a sign of them "banning creativity".

quote]

No one has said anything about banning creativity. The lack of promoting it or encouragement is the issue.

I agree with that.

It leads to the mentality where some new players -- we have seen them on Dakka -- ask questions like, "Am I allowed to do this or that or whatever?" as if GW control it all.

I once saw a post (on the old EoT forums) and the youngster asked if he was allowed to paint his St Celestian model a different colour to the GW original.

It's your game, your models, your terrain. You can do anything you like as long as your fellow players still want to play with you.

H.B.M.C. , you make some very valid points and I certainly don't wish to refute any of them, however you can't deny that GW has seen a gap in the market and filled it. There are plenty of us for whom the attraction of making terrain has always looked like a curse. I have been waiting 20 years for GW to produce pre made terrain kits, and now they do, I couldn't be happier because quite frankly, there are enough of us who don't have the time, skill, flair or talent to make terrain, myself included.

All of this convenience has indeed come at the price of homogenisation but from my own point of view, my gaming board at home looks a million times better than anything I could have produced.

Warhammer world did an auction last weekend for the grand re-opening, some real bargins, like the vampire counts army, painted, in a box, £80, its just what they do!

Kanluwen wrote:The vast majority of the scratch-built stuff they sell off are things like swamps or small forests.

Anything bigger or more complex is usually sent to Warhammer World or a Battle Bunker.

Except for the eight 4' x 6' GT tables that US HQ gave one of our local stores. Guess they didn't feel like moving them to Memphis................

filbert wrote:H.B.M.C. , you make some very valid points and I certainly don't wish to refute any of them, however you can't deny that GW has seen a gap in the market and filled it. There are plenty of us for whom the attraction of making terrain has always looked like a curse. I have been waiting 20 years for GW to produce pre made terrain kits, and now they do, I couldn't be happier because quite frankly, there are enough of us who don't have the time, skill, flair or talent to make terrain, myself included.

All of this convenience has indeed come at the price of homogenisation but from my own point of view, my gaming board at home looks a million times better than anything I could have produced.

Ready made terrain has been around for decades. There are many forms including expanded poly squares and hexes, mats, hills, buildings and so on.

What GW have done is make a board and some building kits in hard polystrene and sell it without the convenience of it coming ready flocked and painted. Also without many of the kind of pieces wargamers need such as river, roads, spare hills, and soon.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Ready made terrain has been around for decades. There are many forms including expanded poly squares and hexes, mats, hills, buildings and so on.

What GW have done is make a board and some building kits in hard polystrene and sell it without the convenience of it coming ready flocked and painted. Also without many of the kind of pieces wargamers need such as river, roads, spare hills, and soon.

While I don't disagree with you KK, I would suggest that a lot of these manufacturers are small, cottage industry affairs. You have to know they exist and have to know where to look to find them, plus have the gumption to dig around for it - I certainly wasn't aware of them when I started gaming and the internet wasn't the resource for information that it is now; consequently the only information I had to go was from my peers. All we knew was GW and they didn't do it.

The homogenisation has been very damaging to the hobby (if not the business) IMHO. Having standard painted armies in the cabinet has already helped stifle creativity and now standardised tables?

Sounds all very soulless to me. I like the idea of the plastic terrain kits and for the beginner, club or gamer without the time or skill to make their own terrain they are an invaluable option. Even if there are better and cheaper terrain kits made by other companies. But to crush scratch built terrain in store is a rotten move. Scratch built terrain often sparks a gamers hobby imagination, in much the same way as a good conversion does. Killing this helps kill the hobby.

I remember when going to a unfamiliar GW was an exciting experience as you could see all sorts of weird and wonderful paint schemes, conversions and tables. Seeing identikit stores sounds like a depressing prospect and actually is far less likely to make me open my wallet as I simply wont be inspired to become involved.

I'm far more likely to be spending my cash of the new edition of WAB than Fantasy V 8 anyway.

LuciusAR wrote:
Sounds all very soulless to me. I like the idea of the plastic terrain kits and for the beginner, club or gamer without the time or skill to make their own terrain they are an invaluable option. Even if there are better and cheaper terrain kits made by other companies. But to crush scratch built terrain in store is a rotten move. Scratch built terrain often sparks a gamers hobby imagination, in much the same way as a good conversion does. Killing this helps kill the hobby.

Oh yes, I totally agree. My point being that neither option should be derided and neither option is mutually exclusive; the hobbyists need not pour scorn on those of us that choose to use pre made terrain, likewise GW have gone too far in the opposite direction to the detriment of creativity. The two facets need to live comfortably side by side. I can appreciate a well crafted board as much as the next man - I just realise (and realised pretty damn quickly into my gaming career) that I would never have the skill or talent required to make it myself.

The two options are not mutually exclusive. GW are offering an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby. There is certainly a place for that, and I grasp the point that no-one else has a major high-street presence.

The issue for us veterans who want to see the youngsters being allowed to enjoy wargaming as much as possible, is simply that if GW present the GW way as the only way, it diminishes the hobby as a whole.

GW offered an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby without the RoB. The RoB adds nothing to the line by a lack of creativity.

The rest of the GW stuff is ace ('cept those horrible vacu-form things we got when Planetstrike game out) and is easy to use, and saves you having to saw foam and cut into expanded polystyrene and so on.

The RoB is the opposite of that - hugely overpriced (not 100% GW's fault there), extremely limited, and not at all useful by itself.

Kilkrazy wrote:The two options are not mutually exclusive. GW are offering an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby. There is certainly a place for that, and I grasp the point that no-one else has a major high-street presence.

The issue for us veterans who want to see the youngsters being allowed to enjoy wargaming as much as possible, is simply that if GW present the GW way as the only way, it diminishes the hobby as a whole.

I agree wholeheartedly with your sentiments. The problem is GW's presence is not contested in the high street so they effectively have a monopoly on an easily accessible and very tempting entry into our hobby. Even my wife, who has no interest in the hobby at all has expressed her admiration of some of the great scratch-built terrain and display models. If they can tempt you into the shop and get you interested that's over half the battle won!

You have to remember, GW started up as a small back-room company in 1975 and founded Citadel in 1979, so they have had a long time to perfect their art. It's not their fault they have no real competition, and what they do have doesn't advertise in the same high profile fashion as GW so...unless your a grizzled old veteran in the know, GW would seem to be the way to go. Unless other companies can get their products out there in the same high profile fashion, GW will always have their monopoly.

filbert wrote:While I don't disagree with you KK, I would suggest that a lot of these manufacturers are small, cottage industry affairs. You have to know they exist and have to know where to look to find them, plus have the gumption to dig around for it - I certainly wasn't aware of them when I started gaming and the internet wasn't the resource for information that it is now; consequently the only information I had to go was from my peers. All we knew was GW and they didn't do it.

Filbert, back in the days before t'internet I used to use a company called Gallia UK who produced a wide variety of modular 2'x2' terrain tiles and buildings (the same stuff I still have, though it's looking a bit worn nowadays) and that was through looking in wargaming mags and old White Dwarfs. The internet is a huge wealth of info so finding good quality ready-made terrain nowadays should be a lot easier.

Just as a little link for you I all, I found a German company last night called 'Ziterdes' that produce 2'x2' modular terrain, fully flocked and textured and ready to use for 26 Euro's...about £22 per board or they do 6 tile deal sets for about £103. Yeah, it still isn't cheap but they have a much wider choice, you could easily buy 4 to start and add extra's as you can afford to. They also have UK distributors! I am seriously considering getting some of their sets myself to replace mine.

I would much rather spend my money on something like that than the ROB system which you then have to texture and paint yourself. But again, it highlights my original point that unless companies advertise well (and here you cannot fault GW) they won't compete well. You can have the greatest product on the planet...but if people don't know about it how are you gonna sell it!!!

H.B.M.C. wrote:GW offered an off-the-shelf, one-stop-shop entry to the hobby without the RoB. The RoB adds nothing to the line by a lack of creativity.

The rest of the GW stuff is ace ('cept those horrible vacu-form things we got when Planetstrike game out) and is easy to use, and saves you having to saw foam and cut into expanded polystyrene and so on.

The RoB is the opposite of that - hugely overpriced (not 100% GW's fault there), extremely limited, and not at all useful by itself.

That, of course, is entirely your opinion, H.B.M.C. Personally speaking, I love my ROB board and I think it is the best purchase I have made from GW in years. I agree that it is a move towards clamping down on creativity and trying to make it look as if GW is the be all and end all of the hobby, but then again, GW have been trying to do that for years. I like my ROB board because it is infinitely better than anything I could make on my own - and I care not a jot that it is modular. As always, one man's meat is another's poisoin and with a hobby as diverse as ours, everyone has a different way of doing things; that is to be lauded and I certainly don't agree with GW's attempts to stifle that and homogenise everything. However, I think we as a community should make more of an effort to not be partisan on these issues. The hobbyists among us need to stop sneering at those who choose to buy boards and terrain - likewise, the people who buy pre made terrain need to realise that home made stuff can be as good, if not better and that GW is not the final word in our hobby.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cypher871 wrote:

filbert wrote:While I don't disagree with you KK, I would suggest that a lot of these manufacturers are small, cottage industry affairs. You have to know they exist and have to know where to look to find them, plus have the gumption to dig around for it - I certainly wasn't aware of them when I started gaming and the internet wasn't the resource for information that it is now; consequently the only information I had to go was from my peers. All we knew was GW and they didn't do it.

Filbert, back in the days before t'internet I used to use a company called Gallia UK who produced a wide variety of modular 2'x2' terrain tiles and buildings (the same stuff I still have, though it's looking a bit worn nowadays) and that was through looking in wargaming mags and old White Dwarfs. The internet is a huge wealth of info so finding good quality ready-made terrain nowadays should be a lot easier.

Just as a little link for you I all, I found a German company last night called 'Ziterdes' that produce 2'x2' modular terrain, fully flocked and textured and ready to use for 26 Euro's...about £22 per board or they do 6 tile deal sets for about £103. Yeah, it still isn't cheap but they have a much wider choice, you could easily buy 4 to start and add extra's as you can afford to. They also have UK distributors! I am seriously considering getting some of their sets myself to replace mine.

I would much rather spend my money on something like that than the ROB system which you then have to texture and paint yourself. But again, it highlights my original point that unless companies advertise well (and here you cannot fault GW) they won't compete well. You can have the greatest product on the planet...but if people don't know about it how are you gonna sell it!!!

Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.

filbert wrote:
Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.

I didn't realise you were so young...I apologise for unfairly ageing you in my mind That of course changes things..I was 25 in 1992 so I had the benefit of having been around when White Dwarf was more like a comic than a mag and was full of D&D and old computer stuff as well as lots of ads for (gasp, shock, horror) other companies products...ahh , how things change.

Cypher871 wrote:

filbert wrote:
Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.

I didn't realise you were so young...I apologise for unfairly ageing you in my mind That of course changes things..I was 25 in 1992 so I had the benefit of having been around when White Dwarf was more like a comic than a mag and was full of D&D and old computer stuff as well as lots of ads for (gasp, shock, horror) other companies products...ahh , how things change.

Old enough to know better

And yes, I have seen some of the first WD's and they were a mine of info about all things wargaming, not just GW. However, once GW became a bit more self aware, they quickly cut out anything non-GW related meaning for new people getting into the hobby, GW was all that you saw.

filbert wrote:

Cypher871 wrote:

filbert wrote:
Many thanks for the link; I will check them out. As to your other point, that kind of reinforces what I am trying to say; when I started wargaming back in 1992, I was 12 and my only source of info regarding the hobby came from White Dwarf and my peers - there simply wasn't any exposure of other companies; as far as I was concerned, they just didn't exist and the same was true for my friends - as far as we knew, GW was the hobby. And GW have always tried to make that so. It is of course, much easier these days to research other alternatives, and that is to be lauded.

I didn't realise you were so young...I apologise for unfairly ageing you in my mind That of course changes things..I was 25 in 1992 so I had the benefit of having been around when White Dwarf was more like a comic than a mag and was full of D&D and old computer stuff as well as lots of ads for (gasp, shock, horror) other companies products...ahh , how things change.

Old enough to know better

And yes, I have seen some of the first WD's and they were a mine of info about all things wargaming, not just GW. However, once GW became a bit more self aware, they quickly cut out anything non-GW related meaning for new people getting into the hobby, GW was all that you saw.

The problem now of course, is as I said, GW's monopoly. It would be horrendously difficult for a new miniature company to muscle in now. It would take unthinkable amounts of Capital and need to be a product as polished, and even then, it would be a gamble. To be fair there are other systems and model ranges out there, but not nearly pushed as hard, and that is what is needed.

Hey Filbert

Sheesh what a cop out!
your modelling skills won't improve if you don't get your hands covered in PVA and spit mate

Again
this is not about putting people down, and I have hopefully implied that there will be people who feel unable for whatever reason, to build their own tables.

As KK said, the two are not mutually exclusive.
It is disappointing that GW is no longer presenting the scratchbuilding options that are available as they used to do.

It is importanat because of the influence GW has over newcomers to the hobby as a whole.

GW stores are lousy places to play games anyway and could never hold a candle to the FLGS. While GW locations generally have (had) very nice terrain they also have overbearing staff, officious rules about gaming in the store, and a dearth of gaming space. Bottom line, now all GW locations will have a very similar assortment of terrain. So what? The ROB board is a terrible product, but they also have some extremely nice terrain products as well. GW stores always felt more like showrooms than gamestores anyway because they obviously are not trying to create a nice environment for people to hang out and play games. In the future they will probably only let hired GW models use the tables to improve the image of the players.

GW makes nice terrain, but nothing beats a flat 6' x 4' MDF board as the base for a miniatures game.