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[snip] I'll leave this topic very much alone before it turns into yet another argument.

They aren't always depicted as having weird people follow them around. What they have, IF anyone follows them around, are priests and the frateris militia. Which should be brought back, I agree, but the legatine (the fluff's catch-all term for the Sisters' upper ranks) are guarded by the Celestians-- why would they need a bunch of unarmored, untrained, non-military zealots as bodyguards when they already have professional, skilled, trained, and highly elite soldiers in power armor doing it?

-

Eldar

Orks

Just a change & I don't want ANY MeQs

SaintHazard wrote:

Anpu42 wrote:The original "Space Marine" Epic Game was Marines vs Marines.

And that's all fine and dandy, but I like to think 40k has evolved beyond that now.

Now GW has too many great options available to resort to Marines vs Marines to make sales.

EVOLVED??!!
Devolved. What happened to my overwatch, hidden units, declaring all fire before rolling, guess-range? oh yeah... 10 yr olds couldn't get the hang of it so they phased it out... What happened to consolodated army lists in one book so everybody had access to all info about enemies without having to buy a damn bookshelfs worth of codex? What happened to customizing weapon options on characters? Oh yeah... It's better to sell 12 different books with each new edition with dumbed down rules and dumbed down easy-to-sell no-brainer armies. I believe the word is 'Devolved'.

Marines vs. Marines is the basis of the Horus Heresy, which is the backbone of 40k fluff. Far from 'snooze'. I look at it like this: a viable Guard army needs tanks and numbers, so they won't fit in a box with everything else, same with Orks needing masses, Gaunt hordes needing MCs, etc. Marine vs Chaosmarine would need 22 figures plus throw in a dread or something else to give it personality and even out the points. That frees up space for a basic hobby knife, brush, basic color set, glue, flock, and some cardboard terrain. If anything it would boost sales because the armies would be legally playable, the gamer kid would have all his model tools available, and it would be two more or less evenly matched armies just with a few quirky differences.... like who gets the dread and sorceror versus who gets the speeder and scouts etc.

It would be better if the starter set was a true starter: 2 workable armies with a little character added in, a paint/modelling basics set, a little book of fluff, little consolodated rulebook, amry-list book for reference... AoBR was damn close but they forgot to give the Marines enough troops to make them rules-legal. It would have been better if they subbed scouts for the termies just to fill in that 2nd troop slot. (also the Marine army is about 100 points more than the orks)

Melissia wrote:

Bottle wrote:SoB:

Captain & Retinue of crazy henchmen
2 squads of Sisters, 6 or so models
1 Immolator

... err, what? This isn't a legal list. Also, John Blanche is trash.

There is no "captain" in the codex... nor do Sisters have "crazy henchmen". Inquisitors do, but that is Inquisition, not Sisters (And therefor if you include them you are not playing a Sisters list). And Battle Sister Squads are 10 models minimum and would kinda suck with only six models (even with a 3+ save, they're still only GEQ in the majority of their stats).

Derp, you beat me to it.

Lolwut? This list sucks anyway. I would do:

Cannoness
10 SoB
5 Seraphims
Exorcist

but you cant fit a full on tank in the basic box. just too big to fit an exorcist in a basic box unless you want one made of cardboard. which i guess is fine. they used to make 2D carboard orky dreads. why not go back to the old ways? If you want a starter game make it all-inclusive. If you want a bundle of cheap figs and a cheap mini rulebook get AoBR, but AoBR is far from a real 'starter' set for the game, more just a tool for vets to get a lot of cheap figs.

GW seem to have a policy against cardboard these days.
May be wrong but I the only card is likely to be the box.

Can't remember the source though.

Melissia wrote:Yes, I dare, because he can't draw/paint/whatever to save his life, especially not females. And with that, I'll leave this topic very much alone before it turns into yet another argument.

Threads you post in only become arguments because you post in them. You're even more pedantic than I am, and a lot more confrontational.

And I wouldn't want to live in a world where John Blanche wasn't making kickass artwork.

Guitardian wrote:but you cant fit a full on tank in the basic box. just too big to fit an exorcist in a basic box unless you want one made of cardboard. which i guess is fine. they used to make 2D carboard orky dreads. why not go back to the old ways? If you want a starter game make it all-inclusive. If you want a bundle of cheap figs and a cheap mini rulebook get AoBR, but AoBR is far from a real 'starter' set for the game, more just a tool for vets to get a lot of cheap figs.

I agree with this, to an extent. I really didn't learn too much from that scenario book, and they made me read trough the entire rulebook just to learn how to play (how dare they ). So yeah, it helps beginners, but it's probably just a way for vets to get a cheap dread and bulk orks

It's a good set though. The warboss has to be one of my favorite models, even though I don't play orks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:GW seem to have a policy against cardboard these days.
May be wrong but I the only card is likely to be the box.

Can't remember the source though.

Yeah, they sold all their cardboard-making machines for more plastic-making machines. Not sure what's wrong with cardboard though. A rhino would be the easiest thing ever (six sides, that's it ) and those cardboard buildings my friend has are still holding up. Cardboard=winsboard

I would want
IG-500 Guant's Ghost's
HQ- 100 points
CCS
Colonel-Commissar Gaunt (pre Necropolis)
Doc Dorden (Medi pack)
Camo cloaks

Troops 280
Vet squad - 100 points
/w Forward Sentries

Vet Squad - 160 points
/w forward sentries, Gunnery ergeant Harker (Try again Bragg), flammer

Fast Attack -120
Scout Sentinel Squadron -120
/w 3 scout Sentinel and 3 Heavy Flamer

vs

any 500 point force

I want a force of the guys that inspired my to play IG in the first place.

Oh, and a hell of a lot of forest Terrain.

Guitardian wrote:
EVOLVED??!!
Devolved. What happened to my overwatch, hidden units, declaring all fire before rolling, guess-range? oh yeah... 10 yr olds couldn't get the hang of it so they phased it out... What happened to consolodated army lists in one book so everybody had access to all info about enemies without having to buy a damn bookshelfs worth of codex? What happened to customizing weapon options on characters? Oh yeah... It's better to sell 12 different books with each new edition with dumbed down rules and dumbed down easy-to-sell no-brainer armies. I believe the word is 'Devolved'.

Marines vs. Marines is the basis of the Horus Heresy, which is the backbone of 40k fluff. Far from 'snooze'. I look at it like this: a viable Guard army needs tanks and numbers, so they won't fit in a box with everything else, same with Orks needing masses, Gaunt hordes needing MCs, etc. Marine vs Chaosmarine would need 22 figures plus throw in a dread or something else to give it personality and even out the points. That frees up space for a basic hobby knife, brush, basic color set, glue, flock, and some cardboard terrain. If anything it would boost sales because the armies would be legally playable, the gamer kid would have all his model tools available, and it would be two more or less evenly matched armies just with a few quirky differences.... like who gets the dread and sorceror versus who gets the speeder and scouts etc.

It would be better if the starter set was a true starter: 2 workable armies with a little character added in, a paint/modelling basics set, a little book of fluff, little consolodated rulebook, amry-list book for reference... AoBR was damn close but they forgot to give the Marines enough troops to make them rules-legal. It would have been better if they subbed scouts for the termies just to fill in that 2nd troop slot. (also the Marine army is about 100 points more than the orks)

This comment is right on the money. A tank spam army like IG would be hard to do in a starter without making the cost and size of the starter box freaking huge. Nothing is more iconic than the Horus Heresy and there is enough differences model wise between the two sides to make them creatively different. The SM side for example could have tac marines, scouts and a cheap dread whereas the chaos side could have regular CSM, lesser daemons and a couple of plastic oblits. The SM side could have a Captain as a HQ wheras the Chaos side could have a Sorcerer. Both sides would be easy to play (3+ saves all round), easy to paint (MEQ are easy to paint) and both sides would be similar in point cost and ability.

Assuming how cost effective GW is, they could squeeze in extras like terrain, basic modelling tools like a knife or file and a basic paint and brush set. They can also save some paint and be fluffy at the same time by making it a Blood Angels vs Black Legion starter set.

THAT depends on who you ask. Personally, I find the Horus Heresy to be pretty boring, and the real iconic matchup of 40k to be Guard versus Orks. Mmm...

Melissia wrote:THAT depends on who you ask. Personally, I find the Horus Heresy to be pretty boring, and the real iconic matchup of 40k to be Guard versus Orks. Mmm...

Heretic.
Guard v. Orks is good, if not a little dry. I prefer Guard v. Nids, a little Starship Trooper (the movie) loving.

DEUS VULT wrote:

Melissia wrote:THAT depends on who you ask. Personally, I find the Horus Heresy to be pretty boring, and the real iconic matchup of 40k to be Guard versus Orks. Mmm...

Heretic.
Guard v. Orks is good, if not a little dry. I prefer Guard v. Nids, a little Starship Trooper (the movie) loving.

When ever some one pulls out Nids I actually pull out the Starship Troopers Mini's and just proxy everything. With their permission of course.

Well, I'm going to take it as a given that any starter GW makes is going to have Marines as the centerpiece, since they make so much money from the line. What would make sense to me, though, is to have some sort of bundle where you could get all the non-mini goodies from the box set (that is, the small rule book, templates, etc) separately. A new player may have no interest in playing Orks or SM, but they still need all of that stuff. That is where I was, so I had to resort to Ebay to get what I needed.

Really though, I think the idea of a 2-player box set is a bit absurd for a game that is as prevalent for 40k. My ideal set-up would be:

1. Make a separate hobby starter bundle with templates, tools, dice, etc.
2. Repackage the army boxes to be roughly the same in points (not model count!), and have them contain a legal playable force.
3. ????
4. Profit!

IG vs Chaos. Would make Deafeting the enemies of the Imperium would be introduced to beginners early in the hobby for them.

What is with you guys with the IG thing? No Way in hellhound you can make an IG starter set. There wont be any room in the box! I understand a lot of people like them, spam them, etc... but as the starter army? OK GW lets start making cardboard russ...? oh yeah make sure you get rid of fluff, enemies, terrain, anything remotely codex, so we can make sure we stuff 100 figures in the box.

Guard is great, I was a fan even back when they sucked, but I wouldn't wish it on a starter set.

My dream starter set is probably Necrons VS. Space Wolves.

Necrons: Dunno, probably a couple (4-5) wraiths, scarabs and a bunch of skelotobots. (and a necron lord if realistic)

Space Wolves: A squad of grey hunters/blood claws and long fangs. Give me a Wolf Lord or a Rune Priest and that would be cool

Guitardian wrote:What is with you guys with the IG thing? No Way in hellhound you can make an IG starter set. There wont be any room in the box! I understand a lot of people like them, spam them, etc... but as the starter army? OK GW lets start making cardboard russ...? oh yeah make sure you get rid of fluff, enemies, terrain, anything remotely codex, so we can make sure we stuff 100 figures in the box.

Guard is great, I was a fan even back when they sucked, but I wouldn't wish it on a starter set.

You don't need 100 figures. You can manage it with ~21 minimum and some artillery if you want. Not like Orks had much more and they're a horde army.

I want two armies that are the extreme of each other.

Tau and Khorne theme chaos marines.

Tau get all the guns and nifty tools. Chaos get lots and lots of axes, claws, teeth, etc. Each of these armies can be easy to play if they are set up right.

- Chaos can simplely be point and assault it.
- Chaos Lord with Mark of khorne + Daemon weapon
- 2 Sqauds of 7 Berzerkers
- Defiler (Can be broken down nice and compact)

- Tau can be point and shoot the crap out of it.
- Shas'O with plasma rifle, Missile Pod
- 2 Fire warrior teams of 8
- 2 Full plastic broadsides

It's true that we'll always have Space Marines in the starter set. But it might not be too much to ask for a different kind of Space Marine, at least.

I'd like to see Space Wolves versus Tau, (lets assume that Tau gets one of the last few codices of 5th) since they're my two favorite Armies that would be opposed. Plus Tau just don;t get a whole lot of love in the first place.

My current beef is that AoBR doesn't give you a legal army. Space Marines get 2 Elites, 1 HQ and one Troop. Not sure about Orks.

Space Wolves:
-10 Infantry models: Good for Wolf Guard, Blood Claws or Grey Hunters.
-New Bjorn Model: Since there's just a really old one, and he deserves it.
-2 Razorbacks with Lascannon/ TL Plasmagun: Since there's no model for that weapon.

I don't know what would be fair for Tau against that, but this would be cool. Assume the new Tau Codex makes things not suck as much.

Tau:
-Crisis Suit Commander: Knock out another hybrid kit.
-12 Infantry models: Firewarriors
-2 Pirhannas
-2 Broadsides
-Drones

Commander Endova wrote:Not sure about Orks.

Orks are legal in AoBR (1 HQ, 2 troops, 1 FA), depending on how you deploy your Boyz. Comes with 20 Boyz, which can be two units of ten each. Why you'd do that is a mystery, though, since any Boyz Mob needs to have at least 11 models, anyone not taking advantage of the Mob rule is a doofus.

Commander Endova wrote:Space Wolves:
-10 Infantry models: Good for Wolf Guard, Blood Claws or Grey Hunters.
-New Bjorn Model: Since there's just a really old one, and he deserves it.
-2 Razorbacks with Lascannon/ TL Plasmagun: Since there's no model for that weapon.

Tau:
-Crisis Suit Commander: Knock out another hybrid kit.
-12 Infantry models: Firewarriors
-2 Pirhannas
-2 Broadsides
-Drones

This is feasible, however you kind of have infantry matched here, but you gotta remember that FW are essentially GEq, so two squads of six GEq against two squads of five MEq is kind of unfair, I'd nix the Broadsides in favor of more troops. Maybe 2 squads of 10 FW. Especially since the Broadsides would demolish either Bjorn or the Razorbacks turn 1.

Space Hulk...
change the terminator serge with the thunderhammer into a Logan, 2 units of wolfguard, a lone wolf (the guy with lightning claws) and a librarian... legal army... versus as many genestealers as matches the points plus the big genestealer lord thing (I forget what they changed its name to).

Guitardian wrote:Space Hulk...
change the terminator serge with the thunderhammer into a Logan, 2 units of wolfguard, a lone wolf (the guy with lightning claws) and a librarian... legal army... versus as many genestealers as matches the points plus the big genestealer lord thing (I forget what they changed its name to).

Broodlord.

And that'd actually be pretty cool. I'd buy that set.

I think IG and ork would would be nice you could include a black library book cause all guard seem to fight in those are orks and then when new players go from the junk armor saves to a meq or monster creatures they would be far more wowed

Blood angels on cold ones...

I was thinking Dark Angels and Chaos Daemons...Maybe the angels will get a new codex soon.

Guitardian wrote:What is with you guys with the IG thing? No Way in hellhound you can make an IG starter set. There wont be any room in the box! I understand a lot of people like them, spam them, etc... but as the starter army? OK GW lets start making cardboard russ...? oh yeah make sure you get rid of fluff, enemies, terrain, anything remotely codex, so we can make sure we stuff 100 figures in the box.

Guard is great, I was a fan even back when they sucked, but I wouldn't wish it on a starter set.

You good sir, didn't see my list. Vet squads are the key.

You good sir, seem to forget, that while game viable and indeed a great idea to use vets as all your troop slots, it hardly gives a realistic picture of the spirit of the Guard. "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses... I'll send 'em to go fight orks at the far side of the galaxy and shoot them if they back off"

I would say anything but marines. Give the new people a new codex to use