Religion.

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**Haddi**

Frazzled wrote:
Haddi wrote:
rubiksnoob wrote:I find it rather difficult to accept as truth the traditional theistic notion of God, especially the Christian view of God.

*note: I am not disparaging Christians at all, simply pointing out why I am no longer Christian.

As I started to really think about it, some things just didn't make sense:

If God is omniscient, how can we have free will? If he knows everything, than he knows before he creates someone exactly how they are going to turn out, every decision they will ever make, before he creates them. And also, if he is truly omniscient, he knows every decision he is going to BEFORE he makes it. He knows whether or not he will decide to create someone/something before he actually does. This would seem that God himself has no free will.

If God is omniscient how can he be a loving god, as the Bible says? For example, Hitler. If God knows everything, than he knew the crimes that Hitler would commit before he even created him, yet he created Hitler anyway. Is God so sadistic as to create a monster like Hitler? That doesn't sound very loving.

If God is all powerful as many religious texts say, than he most certainly can not be loving. If he truly loved his creations than he would have made them so that no living thing would cause any other living thing pain or suffering. No animal would have to kill another for food, there would be no disease, no unhappiness.

Just my opinion on it.

One of arguments I loved, (Which came from a struggling Christian who then reaffirmed his faith, oddly) was,

"God is three things.

All knowing, all loving, and all powerful. But with the state of the things today, they do not fit together in one being.
If God were All loving and All Powerful, his lack of knowledge could excuse the state of today's world.
If God were All Knowing and All Loving, his lack of power could excuse the state of today's world.
If God were All knowing and All Powerful, his lack of love could excuse the state of today's world.

But he is all of these things, and I simply don't understand how they fit together."

Now, I'm not attacking anyones faith here

You kinda just did.

EDIT:
Good to see we went from a "what religion are you?" to another "lets bash religion" thread. I was getting worried for a minute.

Oh dear.

I always hate it when I say something/something I say is taken as an attack on someones religion.
My family raised me to be tolerant of other peoples beliefs, no matter how silly they are. Now, there are a few (notable) exceptions to which I do not respect (Such as NAMBLA, for instance) but those fall under the jurisdiction of personal, instead of faith-based beliefs. Faith is always a touchy subject, and while in retrospect it was pretty idiotic of me to post that, I truly, do not wish to attack anyones religion.

Except for a little sniggering at (The most known subculture of, IE the idiotic "Trace my witchpower through 7 generations of Wicca)Wiccans, I pretty much accept most faiths without saying/thinking "How could they believe in something so stupid." On the contrary, sometimes I wish I could have belief, but due to my upbringing/viewpoint, I could never accept a faith as my own, for I would always doubt it. To me, it takes an extraordinary amount of willpower, belief, acceptance, whatever you want to call it, to believe in a higher power, than the other way around. I always get annoyed when people refer to faith as a crutch, for by my standards, Atheism is more of one than Religion ever will be.

**halonachos**

Hmmm. 4 pages. Shuma was wrong.

**Golden Eyed Scout**

drukawski wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:...and I believe that by the time my life ends, my "religon/code of ethics/whatever" will incorparate many other aspects of other religons.

So your a Borg?

Pah! Star Trek is for nerds.

**Frazzled**

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
drukawski wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:...and I believe that by the time my life ends, my "religon/code of ethics/whatever" will incorparate many other aspects of other religons.

So your a Borg?

Pah! Star Trek is for nerds.

You will be assimilated for that remark!

**Golden Eyed Scout**

Frazzled wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
drukawski wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:...and I believe that by the time my life ends, my "religon/code of ethics/whatever" will incorparate many other aspects of other religons.

So your a Borg?

Pah! Star Trek is for nerds.

You will be assimilated for that remark!

My Death Star laughs at your puny phasers!

**halonachos**

Aren't the borg from the future?

**rubiksnoob**

Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
drukawski wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:...and I believe that by the time my life ends, my "religon/code of ethics/whatever" will incorparate many other aspects of other religons.

So your a Borg?

Pah! Star Trek is for nerds.

You will be assimilated for that remark!

My Death Star laughs at your puny phasers!

AGAIN.

But if it is to go this way . . .

Toruk Makto trumps deathstar!

**Da Boss**

I'm agnostic, but I'm happy enough for religious people to do what they want.

**Frazzled**

rubiksnoob wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
Frazzled wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:
drukawski wrote:
Golden Eyed Scout wrote:...and I believe that by the time my life ends, my "religon/code of ethics/whatever" will incorparate many other aspects of other religons.

So your a Borg?

Pah! Star Trek is for nerds.

You will be assimilated for that remark!

My Death Star laughs at your puny phasers!

AGAIN.

But if it is to go this way . . .

Toruk Makto trumps deathstar!

The local flying rats (pigeons) sure are big this year...

**rubiksnoob**

Resistance is futile!

**frgsinwntr**

rubiksnoob wrote:Resistance is futile!

**rubiksnoob**

**4M2A**

wow 4 pages good going

**LordofHats**

4M2A wrote:wow 4 pages good going

In my experience they usually close around seven or eight

I like the funny pictures though. Hilarious.

**micahaphone**

Well, thanks to all who participated for keeping it (mostly) clean. This has (so far) (mostly) given me some good data as to my original query. I would personally like to give a good smack to some people on this thread, but that's their personal choice, and they have their freedom of religion, let them use it.
Keep up the good work, and remember, no hatin.

For those who point to radicals, like, yes, Hitler, or the KKK, or the Taliban, these are people who are abusing religions that promote peace in order to promote hatred. They are, and always have been, bad examples of what a religion is.

As long as this thread is going to be derailed, I'd like to be the one doing it.

so:

-- If you don't believe in God, can you actually believe that the universe, the laws of physics, the creation of a planet perfectly suited to sustaining life, and even mankinds' continued existence are just random chance??? I mean, the universe is a big place and all, but there's gotta be someone or something behind it.

**Khornholio**

If we're changing the topic, can I change my bet as to what page the thread will implode?

**micahaphone**

sure.

But, please PLEASE PKLASE PAZLWE (oops) keep it clean, people. No one likes a troll/hater.

**4M2A**

Well I might aswell try and drag this thread back on topic:

If you don't believe in God, can you actually believe that the universe, the laws of physics, the creation of a planet perfectly suited to sustaining life, and even mankinds' continued existence are just random chance??? I mean, the universe is a big place and all, but there's gotta be someone or something behind it.

1. Relative to the size of the universe it isn't that hard for a planet to be suitable for life. As we have evolved to fit our planet it's moe of a case of life suited to the planet. If earth had come out differently and was not suitable for the sort of life we see now, life wouldn't have evolved as it did. Instead we would see hugely different types of life.

2.The laws of physics are just the way things are. They are completely random, and only appear order if we put them into a patern.

3.As for our continued existance, we are just lucky. Compared to earth, we are still very young. There have been many occurances that would have destroyed human life but we just haven't been around long enough for one to occur.

Here is a counter question. I don't mean to critisie religion but It's good to look at both sides.

Why is it that while we have strong scientific proof for many apsects of the universe and life around us which can easily be proved do people still choose a to believe something with no solid proof (nothing that can be held or studied)? Surely something which is unlikely but is proven to be possible is easer to follow than something with no proof.

**dogma**

micahaphone wrote:
-- If you don't believe in God, can you actually believe that the universe, the laws of physics, the creation of a planet perfectly suited to sustaining life, and even mankinds' continued existence are just random chance??? I mean, the universe is a big place and all, but there's gotta be someone or something behind it.

Seeing as there are people that believe exactly what you claim, the answer to your question is obviously yes.

**Samus_aran115**

I'm a Deist. There's definitely a god, but I don't attribute him to any particular religion. If anything, It's closest to Judaism.

**Ktulhut**

micahaphone wrote:
-- If you don't believe in God, can you actually believe that the universe, the laws of physics, the creation of a planet perfectly suited to sustaining life, and even mankinds' continued existence are just random chance??? I mean, the universe is a big place and all, but there's gotta be someone or something behind it.

- Yes, you can. Because the universe doesn't need you to believe in it in order for it to exists. If the earth blew up and we all died, the rest of the cosmos would just keep on ticking.

- The "laws" of physics are just theories, and are open to adaptation and revision.

- And the universe is SO FRICKIN' HUGE that I would eat my hat if there was no life anywhere else in it. It just seems more likely that life is rare, but in no way special, and occurs naturally under the correct conditions, than some inter-dimensional old white male with a beard and superpowers just decided it'd be a larf to make some planets and slap some humans and trees on one of them.

**rubiksnoob**

micahaphone wrote:

-- If you don't believe in God, can you actually believe that the universe, the laws of physics, the creation of a planet perfectly suited to sustaining life, and even mankinds' continued existence are just random chance??? I mean, the universe is a big place and all, but there's gotta be someone or something behind it.

From my point of view the universe is like a single organism, of which we are like cells, no that's too big. we are like the sub atomic particles that make up the atoms that make up the cells that make up the organism. In other words, we are not so special that there is a need for some sort of creator behind our existence. The laws of physics are just the way the organism functions. You can't bend your knee backwards; light can't travel faster than 186000 miles per second.

**Samus_aran115**

micahaphone wrote:-- If you don't believe in God, can you actually believe that the universe, the laws of physics, the creation of a planet perfectly suited to sustaining life, and even mankinds' continued existence are just random chance??? I mean, the universe is a big place and all, but there's gotta be someone or something behind it.

I could see how you'd think that, but I don't really think that god existed in the beginning. God is what you make him though, so you might think otherwise, and that's fine

That's your opinion, and my religion won't do anything to change your mind :3

**Ahtman**

**Borkin**

Greek Orthodox.

**IAmTheWalrus**

Zoroastrian

**Captain_Trips01**

I'm a very un-stereotypical Christian.

**Flaming_Spider**

I was a christian until recently, when I started taking a far closer look at the bible than before, and found some errors in it. The thing that really turned me off was the answers I kept getting whenever I asked questions.

"It's god's will."
"cause it's in the bible"
"etc..."

I got sick of it. I came to the conclusion that until this "god" gives me some reason to worship him beyond "I said so in this ancient book that was written by a bunch of senile old men and is no longer applicable to society", I shall not worship him.

**Cryonicleech**

This thread will never die, will it?

Not this particular thread, but the religion topic.

Look, people either believe in God or don't, or they believe in organized religion or don't. It's a simple yes-no question, but we as a species make it more than that, hence why there's so much controversy over what's really a minor difference.

People need to be more open and reasonable with this topic. Seriously, if people kill and argue over religion, why not kill and argue over hair color or chin size. While what I'm asking for is essentially impossible, I'd like to think that if humanity was more reasonable and open about this topic and just dropped the subject and accepted that people are different than hell, we're one step closer to a better Earth.

**Flaming_Spider**

Cryonicleech wrote:This thread will never die, will it?

Not this particular thread, but the religion topic.

Look, people either believe in God or don't, or they believe in organized religion or don't. It's a simple yes-no question, but we as a species make it more than that, hence why there's so much controversy over what's really a minor difference.

People need to be more open and reasonable with this topic. Seriously, if people kill and argue over religion, why not kill and argue over hair color or chin size. While what I'm asking for is essentially impossible, I'd like to think that if humanity was more reasonable and open about this topic and just dropped the subject and accepted that people are different than hell, we're one step closer to a better Earth.

Humans are almost incapable of accepting difference. It is something that is hardwired into us, in order to make governing the planet easier. The problem comes when people want folks to accept eachother. It's against our genetics. The only way we can overcome that is by careful conditioning through childhood, which is why we don't fight over chin size or hair color. Religion is different, it's a matter of how we came to be, an everyone wants to be right. Origins are important, and while both sides have good and bad evidence, it usually boils down to who has the biggest sword, because nobody cares what the other side thinks, they're all to busy claiming that their side is right.