Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Athera wrote:I wish they'd get around to fixing the CSM codex.

+1

I wish that they would just update everyone simultaneously... In MTG, could you imagine if they released blocks that did not include colors?

candy.man wrote:

Athera wrote:I wish they'd get around to fixing the CSM codex.

+1

+2... chaos need an update and more plastic models

Yeah they do but thats not really the topic of this thread.
Tau are popular so they'll get alot. Necron are bit light on units, and with the focus being on removing hybrid kits first it'll be interesting to see how much more, if anything, they'll get.

I would imagine Necron players would buy more if there was more to buy...

It helps when you can convert everything from a necron warrior... It sucks when you only get different flavors of necron warrior.

Necron Warrior
Necron Warrior with S and Ap reversed and a bump to the T.
Same Warrior, moves as a jet bike.
Necron Warrior, now one of your HQ models...
Monolith. Monolith. Monolith.

Done.

QuietOrkmi wrote:I wish that they would just update everyone simultaneously... In MTG, could you imagine if they released blocks that did not include colors?

However MTG takes minimal effort to come up with the rules for a couple of hundred new cards. Then some time spent doing art.

Not months/years writing fluff and background, doing 2D design, then 3D design on all the different variations in each model to go in a unit, of which there are a large amount of units. There's writing the rules and stats as well. Doing all the playtesting, painting up models, getting the publicity out there. Now do you see why it takes so much longer to re-do GW's rules?

I agree that sometimes it takes a long time to see stuff re-done. But I would rather wait longer and get a finished, good product. Than have it rushed out, and get an inferior product.

Oshova

Oshova wrote: But I would rather wait longer and get a finished, good product. Than have it rushed out, and get an inferior product.

Oshova

I hope you were being ironic considering the quality of codecii that have come out recently.... (how about a psychic power, a lance power for our vampire marines...what'll we call it? How about blood lance?....and a blood chalice with some blood and the blood and a flying land raider on top).

Quality is not the same as "powerful." I would actually call Blood Angels a failure, since it failed to take into consideration the other marine codices, relative to which it is poorly balanced, making it clearly superior in some areas of performance, inferior in army-to-army balance. I look at the fact Blood Angels and Space Wolves being treated as "quick" and "easy" codex releases that resulted in their short falls relative to the rest of the game.

I would rather take a slow and purposefully thought out codex release than quickly turned around one.

aka_mythos wrote:Quality is not the same as "powerful." I would actually call Blood Angels a failure, since it failed to take into consideration the other marine codices, relative to which it is poorly balanced, making it clearly superior in some areas of performance, inferior in army-to-army balance. I look at the fact Blood Angels and Space Wolves being treated as "quick" and "easy" codex releases that resulted in their short falls relative to the rest of the game.

I would rather take a slow and purposefully thought out codex release than quickly turned around one.

So by this logic DE and Necrons will get the justice of awesome they deserve? One can only hope...

aka_mythos wrote:Quality is not the same as "powerful." I would actually call Blood Angels a failure, since it failed to take into consideration the other marine codices, relative to which it is poorly balanced, making it clearly superior in some areas of performance, inferior in army-to-army balance. I look at the fact Blood Angels and Space Wolves being treated as "quick" and "easy" codex releases that resulted in their short falls relative to the rest of the game.

I would rather take a slow and purposefully thought out codex release than quickly turned around one.

I would disagree that imbalance and power have an impact on the quality of a codex. Matters not because we'll keep seeing the power creeping up with each successive codex so that sales will jump as players jump to the new power army.

I'm just waiting my turn, until my Tau army is the new power army.

OK yes they weren't very imaginative with the Blood Angels names, and the deepstriking Land Raider is a bit silly, but you can't say they didn't put effort into making great looking models, making a balanced codex (ok it seemed ever-powered at first), and the fluff is generally good (except for the OMG we killed even more than whatever the last codex was syndrome) . . . and also I can't believe you forgot about that famous monstrous creature . . . Mephiston

Oshova

Oshova wrote:OK yes they weren't very imaginative with the Blood Angels names, and the deepstriking Land Raider is a bit silly, but you can't say they didn't put effort into making great looking models, making a balanced codex (ok it seemed ever-powered at first), and the fluff is generally good (except for the OMG we killed even more than whatever the last codex was syndrome) . . . and also I can't believe you forgot about that famous monstrous creature . . . Mephiston

Oshova

You forgot the nipple warriors.


Meh. I railgunned and plasma rifled him to death after stripping his cover save with markerlights; no problem.

I wasn't saying he was hard. I was saying he was ridiculously tough. He shouldn't be a monstrous creature equivilant.

And yes the nipple warriors of blood are a bit silly . . . a bit . . .

Oshova

Nothing silly about the Roman Legionary styled breastplates(complete with accentuated chest muscles, etc). They fit the Blood Angels theme quite well, I think, especially with the Deathmasks.

Agreed.

People REALLY need to get over the whole 'nipple armor' thing already.

Alpharius wrote:Agreed.

People REALLY need to get over the whole 'nipple armor' thing already.

Much how I feel about "space commies" when people talk about Tau. Meh.

I've got to say that it's great two of the armies I've been thinking about picking up are being updated. DE and Necrons...it's a plot to separate me from my hard-earned money, I tell you!

aka_mythos wrote:Quality is not the same as "powerful." I would actually call Blood Angels a failure, since it failed to take into consideration the other marine codices, relative to which it is poorly balanced, making it clearly superior in some areas of performance, inferior in army-to-army balance. I look at the fact Blood Angels and Space Wolves being treated as "quick" and "easy" codex releases that resulted in their short falls relative to the rest of the game.

I would rather take a slow and purposefully thought out codex release than quickly turned around one.

I have to agree with you here regards the SW's. An example that springs to mind is 5 nilla termies with TH&SS costs 200pts. For the Wolves the same thing costs 315pts. Thats almost 60% more in cost vs nilla SM's. I do feel there is some costing issues with the SW's codex leading to Grey Hunters, Long Fangs & Rune Priests being the automatic competitive choices in mosts cases. This makes a lot of the codex units redundant unless playing for fun, which fortunately I do.

@Chimaera

That's because they're better than your average bear . . . er . . . Termie

Admittedly not 115pts better in my view. But better none the less.

Oshova

Oshova wrote:@Chimaera

That's because they're better than your average bear . . . er . . . Termie

Admittedly not 115pts better in my view. But better none the less.

Oshova

And I suppose this is the debate. Almost 60% higher in cost is a big factor in them being fielded. I accept they should cost more maybe circa 240pts buts 315pts is taking the P***. Another example is a nilla Captain coming with an Iron Halo and the WL having to pay 25pts more for the same luxury. When you also compare Sicarius to Ragnar you also wonder if Ragnar is a bit over costed & why would you take Blood Claws over Grey Hunters? I could throw up more but I won't. It's silly of GW to cost this way as surely it drives down sales of some units and characters and surely there aim is to drive sales. I don't wan't the SW's to be all superior to nilla Marines as they should also have some USP's but there is some costing issues with the SW's.

Cadaver wrote:

plastictrees wrote:

Cadaver wrote: I'd like them to really expand to a larger alliance of various races. The idea of a conglomerate of races, with new races being introduced without themselves requiring a full army is really cool and adds some depth to the 40k universe, IMO. The lesser races have never really been explored and I think the Tau are are perfect faction to do just that.

This seems like such a no-brainer to me. I really don't understand why so far we've only managed Kroot and some less than inspired bug guys. (Although, honestly, I kind of like the bug guys design, just not the boring sculpts.)
I want to see weird ass lizard guys with sonic weapons, and some kind of sentient rock people, and...basically I want the Tau to be somewhere between Infinity's Combined Army and the Green Lantern Corps.

Yeah, it's definitely something that I could see them doing. I think with the initial release it wasn't bad to establish Tau as a race without so much focus on minor races, but now that they are a major faction I don't see why they couldn't expand other races to add some depth to the army. I always thought it would be a good way to introduce Demiurg onto the tabletop. I was around for squats and have no desire to see them reappear as they were but Demuirg may be a way to reintroduce a Dwarf-like species while making it less 80's space dwarf and more techy and heavily armored small statured species. The possibilities are really endless and GW would really be missing out on a great opportunity to not explore smaller races with the Tau Empire.

You beat me to it, Squats in new Tau or bust.

Alpharius wrote:Agreed.
People REALLY need to get over the whole 'nipple armor' thing already.

Sanguinor? Nice rack!

Although i don't collect either army, i'm glad necrons are getting an update. Gauss is plain unfair.

unfair to the necron player for having such weak gun, i agree

Chimaera wrote:

Oshova wrote:@Chimaera

That's because they're better than your average bear . . . er . . . Termie

Admittedly not 115pts better in my view. But better none the less.

Oshova

And I suppose this is the debate. Almost 60% higher in cost is a big factor in them being fielded. I accept they should cost more maybe circa 240pts buts 315pts is taking the P***. Another example is a nilla Captain coming with an Iron Halo and the WL having to pay 25pts more for the same luxury. When you also compare Sicarius to Ragnar you also wonder if Ragnar is a bit over costed & why would you take Blood Claws over Grey Hunters? I could throw up more but I won't. It's silly of GW to cost this way as surely it drives down sales of some units and characters and surely there aim is to drive sales. I don't wan't the SW's to be all superior to nilla Marines as they should also have some USP's but there is some costing issues with the SW's.

Is that before or after you add the drop pod?

Point made: you take Wolf Guard in Termie around for the at Initiative PW, not for the TH&SS, that's what Rockfist is for.

make a plastic techmarine already...

agnosto wrote:

aka_mythos wrote:Quality is not the same as "powerful." I would actually call Blood Angels a failure, since it failed to take into consideration the other marine codices, relative to which it is poorly balanced, making it clearly superior in some areas of performance, inferior in army-to-army balance. I look at the fact Blood Angels and Space Wolves being treated as "quick" and "easy" codex releases that resulted in their short falls relative to the rest of the game.

I would rather take a slow and purposefully thought out codex release than quickly turned around one.

I would disagree that imbalance and power have an impact on the quality of a codex. Matters not because we'll keep seeing the power creeping up with each successive codex so that sales will jump as players jump to the new power army.

I'm just waiting my turn, until my Tau army is the new power army.

I imagine you would, considering I was disagreeing with you hence why I responded to you. My point was that you were pointing out "powers" and things that are regarded as strong advantages of the codex to support your notion that they were of a high quality. I was saying that you can't rely solely on that to judge the quality, since any number of other things like imbalance are a negative.

More than 1/2 a codex is rules, if the rules are poor the codex is poor. The rules are poor when they are overpowered or underpowered, don't fit what they represent, or imbalance the game at large.

I think power creep is largely an illusion; that while it exists, the vast majority of what people perceive as such are in reality incrementally small but that its only really a problem when people build entire strategy around exploiting these abilities. Its unsporting play that sours more casual notions of play, that wouldn't require drastic use of "power gaming." Power creep though is a trend across several books and not to the substance of the individual codex itself. In judging a codex on its own merits you have to look at what currently exists, and not whats hypothetically going to exist. What if codex creep stopped and every book that came after a point got weaker, would that pinnacle codex still be "good" by your criteria? If codex creep is a cornerstone assumption to allow lower standards, then the answer is no, it wouldn't. Codex creep is the direct result of bad design and relying on the perpetuation of bad design to justify its worth is ridiculous.

Now if you want a massive example of power creep just look at MTG . . . there's no way you can be competitive unless you use the latest bunch of cards.

Whereas with GW products you can be competitive (even with Tau or other 'week' armies) even against the latest codex.

My 'weak' Dark Eldar have beaten the 'over-powered' Blood Angels quite a few times since the codex came out.

Oshova

That I think is one of the best qualities of 40k and only points to the fact that power creep is more incrementally smaller than people realize.

Oshova wrote:Now if you want a massive example of power creep just look at MTG . . . there's no way you can be competitive unless you use the latest bunch of cards.

Whereas with GW products you can be competitive (even with Tau or other 'week' armies) even against the latest codex.

My 'weak' Dark Eldar have beaten the 'over-powered' Blood Angels quite a few times since the codex came out.

Oshova

A lot of veteran players do not consider DE weak. The ability to spam Dark lances, for example. Some absurd first turn assault range.

They regularly placed high in 4th edition tournaments, despite already being old. I haven't tracked them in 5th edition so it may have changed. If it has, that itself would indicate a change of relative power level due to new rules and/or codexes, supportive of the creep theory.

Kroothawk wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Agreed.
People REALLY need to get over the whole 'nipple armor' thing already.

Sanguinor? Nice rack!

Poor horse being beaten to death..
Homophobic much?