Very early Tau and Necron (and one SM kit) rumours

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**agnosto**

aka_mythos wrote:
agnosto wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:Quality is not the same as "powerful." I would actually call Blood Angels a failure, since it failed to take into consideration the other marine codices, relative to which it is poorly balanced, making it clearly superior in some areas of performance, inferior in army-to-army balance. I look at the fact Blood Angels and Space Wolves being treated as "quick" and "easy" codex releases that resulted in their short falls relative to the rest of the game.

I would rather take a slow and purposefully thought out codex release than quickly turned around one.

I would disagree that imbalance and power have an impact on the quality of a codex. Matters not because we'll keep seeing the power creeping up with each successive codex so that sales will jump as players jump to the new power army.

I'm just waiting my turn, until my Tau army is the new power army.
I imagine you would, considering I was disagreeing with you hence why I responded to you. My point was that you were pointing out "powers" and things that are regarded as strong advantages of the codex to support your notion that they were of a high quality. I was saying that you can't rely solely on that to judge the quality, since any number of other things like imbalance are a negative.

More than 1/2 a codex is rules, if the rules are poor the codex is poor. The rules are poor when they are overpowered or underpowered, don't fit what they represent, or imbalance the game at large.

I think power creep is largely an illusion; that while it exists, the vast majority of what people perceive as such are in reality incrementally small but that its only really a problem when people build entire strategy around exploiting these abilities. Its unsporting play that sours more casual notions of play, that wouldn't require drastic use of "power gaming." Power creep though is a trend across several books and not to the substance of the individual codex itself. In judging a codex on its own merits you have to look at what currently exists, and not whats hypothetically going to exist. What if codex creep stopped and every book that came after a point got weaker, would that pinnacle codex still be "good" by your criteria? If codex creep is a cornerstone assumption to allow lower standards, then the answer is no, it wouldn't. Codex creep is the direct result of bad design and relying on the perpetuation of bad design to justify its worth is ridiculous.

All of which would be moot if they simply updated all the codices at the same time, soon after the release of a new rules set, instead of over a period of years. This would negate the need for power creep as all armies would be balanced from the start. I know it'll never happen but hey, the internet's for wishful thinking. I guess that's why a good number of people turn to historical...

When you wrote about the rules being under/overpowered and making the codex bad, I just nod my head and think about all the 5th edition codices vs. the older codices.

I completely agree with your final sentence.

All of which confuses me because you start by saying it's all an illusion and then end by agreeing with me that the creep not only exists but is indicative of poor design (thus my long, sarcastic previous post about blood...blood...blood).

I think all of this has been talked to death for years so I'll bow out now, having added to the derailment of the thread. Sorry folks.

**QuietOrkmi**

Oshova wrote:Now if you want a massive example of power creep just look at MTG . . . there's no way you can be competitive unless you use the latest bunch of cards.

Whereas with GW products you can be competitive (even with Tau or other 'week' armies) even against the latest codex.

My 'weak' Dark Eldar have beaten the 'over-powered' Blood Angels quite a few times since the codex came out.

Oshova

Good sir, I would like to point you to a format called legacy and vintage... newer cards hold little precedence compared to the right card for the job. The card designers are making cards less broken because they are learning from their mistakes... They have now learned the value of trading life for extra cards and so on... With MTG, you can look at any card and say, "it is X with Y attached, or Z removed for A more mana or B less." The illusion of power creep for MTG is the fact that the designers are learning more about their own game from hyper-competitive players. They have learned that a 3/2 for GG will not be played even though it is more powerful then GG 2/3, because it by itself will neither be lynchpin nor synergize with anything... However to a casual player, they just see "OMG a 3/2 for GG I MUST HAVE!1!11!"

**JohnHwangDD**

QuietOrkmi wrote:I wish that they would just update everyone simultaneously... In MTG, could you imagine if they released blocks that did not include colors?

Could you imagine if your 40k models and rules had a 2-year shelf life, after which, they became largely useless and you had to buy in all over again?

And WRT Type 1, are you advocating that 40k should only be playable after a buy-in of several thousand dollars chasing Maruder-era minis, while the overwhelming majority of other minis produced since that time were completely uncompetitive?

**Sidstyler**

I think power creep is largely an illusion; that while it exists, the vast majority of what people perceive as such are in reality incrementally small but that its only really a problem when people build entire strategy around exploiting these abilities. Its unsporting play that sours more casual notions of play, that wouldn't require drastic use of "power gaming."

Hate to break it to you but building armies centered around exploiting their strengths is what this game is all about. It's not "unsporting", it's how the game is meant to be played.

Is it "unsporting" for me to build my Tau army with a focus entirely on shooting? You know, to play my army the way it was designed to be played?

And how the hell do casual players supposedly build lists, anyway? I consider myself a casual player and I'll never waste my money on models that don't perform well in the game, and whenever building a list I always do what I can to make sure it's competent. Like anyone I'm limited by what I have available, but I do research and try to put some thought into my list-building...I don't just grab gak off of the shelf at random without a thought or care.

DE have been said to be a really fast army so far, so I guess in order to be considered a "sporting" DE player you have to take everything on foot, no raiders/reapers etc.?

**JohnHwangDD**

aka_mythos wrote: I would actually call Blood Angels a failure, since it failed to take into consideration the other marine codices, relative to which it is poorly balanced, making it clearly superior in some areas of performance, inferior in army-to-army balance.

I look at the fact Blood Angels and Space Wolves being treated as "quick" and "easy" codex releases that resulted in their short falls relative to the rest of the game.

I see BA & SW as successes precisely because they are better in some areas, worse in others - that's the entire point of having different Codices: different strengths and weaknesses for different armies.

**Ehsteve**

I want to see GW expand upon the Tau's smaller warp presence and alliance with the Nicassar. Alien psykers with unique psychic abilities will be a great addition to the range, and expand Tau's possiblities beyond basing an entire army around pathfinders, kroot and their myriad of advantages within those two units.

It'd be interesting to see what they come up with for models of the nicassar (if they make any at all), and whether they'll simply be included as single metal models introduced to the range as elites options or whether we'll get a 'hive mind' psyker reliant on large squad sizes for power (which would be very interesting to see).

**QuietOrkmi**

I wonder what you could do with the whole "small warp presence"? Would it make daemons and psykers have to roll night fight to fire psychic shooting attacks?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I wonder what you could do with the whole "small warp presence"? Would it make daemons and psykers have to roll night fight to fire psychic shooting attacks?

**agnosto**

QuietOrkmi wrote:I wonder what you could do with the whole "small warp presence"? Would it make daemons and psykers have to roll night fight to fire psychic shooting attacks?

Or they could get a 4+ invul save against psychic powers targeting them...

**AlexHolker**

Having a small warp presence would be no more effective a defence against psychic powers than having no warp presence (i.e. an object). It might help against telepathic attacks, but to protect yourself from something like Lightning Arc you need to exert your own influence on the warp.

**Kilkrazy**

It would if the rules said it did.

**Grundz**

AlexHolker wrote:Having a small warp presence would be no more effective a defence against psychic powers than having no warp presence (i.e. an object). It might help against telepathic attacks, but to protect yourself from something like Lightning Arc you need to exert your own influence on the warp.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blanks

also power creep isn't an illusion, It seems to me that each codex that comes out is designed to modify the metagame (ex, bloodangles are exceptional against IG alpha strike lists, ect.)

**InquisitorMack**

It seems to me that each codex that comes out is designed to modify the metagame

This is what I've been thinking lately. I wonder if the order of codices being released has something to do with the army styles. For example, if GW released Nids, Orks, Necrons & DE (or whatever else would be considered horde army) all in a row, then would players have developed such strong anti-horde lists that by the time DEs came out, they just got wiped off the table? Likewise if GW released a bunch of mech codices, would we all tune our lists to anti-mech to the point that whatever codex was the last in line turned out being overpowered? And how would that have affected the release of expansions like Spearhead? I suspect that it must have occurred to someone along the way that codex releases are not independent events that don't affect the overall metagame.

**Oshova**

Well no, just because the new codices are cool doesn't mean everyone plays them. I wouldn't alter my army list to fight the latest codex (unless I knew I was playing it) I would only change it the meta changed, which only really happens when there is a rules change.

Oshova

**Firewarrior1141**

I really hope that the Tau get an ok redo. Right now every tactic I have been used to running has been outdated or countered with new codexs' abilities. I started with Tau and I really want to have a chance of playing with them and having a chance instead of being slaughtered.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did I get demoted or something for not being on here for a while?

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Did I get demoted or something for not being on here for a while? :(

**Kilkrazy**

Grundz wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:Having a small warp presence would be no more effective a defence against psychic powers than having no warp presence (i.e. an object). It might help against telepathic attacks, but to protect yourself from something like Lightning Arc you need to exert your own influence on the warp.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blanks

also power creep isn't an illusion, It seems to me that each codex that comes out is designed to modify the metagame (ex, bloodangles are exceptional against IG alpha strike lists, ect.)

I would like to believe that GW have such a degree of perception and organisation. It's just that they often seem shambolic in other ways, that it is hard to accept they could sustain such a cunning masterplan.

Also not all codexes do noticeably alter the metagame.

**AlexHolker**

Grundz wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:Having a small warp presence would be no more effective a defence against psychic powers than having no warp presence (i.e. an object). It might help against telepathic attacks, but to protect yourself from something like Lightning Arc you need to exert your own influence on the warp.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blanks

I'd define Blanks as having a negative warp presence. They certainly have some effect on their psychic surroundings, or they wouldn't disrupt psionic activity not directed at them personally.

**Agamemnon2**

JohnHwangDD wrote:And WRT Type 1, are you advocating that 40k should only be playable after a buy-in of several thousand dollars chasing Maruder-era minis, while the overwhelming majority of other minis produced since that time were completely uncompetitive?

Frankly, I'd advocate that anyone comparing 40k with MTG is an idjit who clearly has no idea what they're talking about. It isn't even an apples to oranges comparison, but apples to small Zulu villages.

**TBD**

Grundz wrote: It seems to me that each codex that comes out is designed to modify the metagame

GW doesn't design with tournament/competitive play in mind, so I doubt they give a feth about metagame.

**Trevak Dal**

Oshova wrote:OK yes they weren't very imaginative with the Blood Angels names, and the deepstriking Land Raider is a bit silly, but you can't say they didn't put effort into making great looking models, making a balanced codex (ok it seemed ever-powered at first), and the fluff is generally good (except for the OMG we killed even more than whatever the last codex was syndrome) . . . and also I can't believe you forgot about that famous monstrous creature . . . Mephiston

Oshova

Having not seen the deep striking land raider yet, I'd love to see it in a game, I got the horn track from the Dukes of Hazzard on my computer ready to play at the tap of a button.

**Aduro**

Trevak Dal wrote:
Oshova wrote:OK yes they weren't very imaginative with the Blood Angels names, and the deepstriking Land Raider is a bit silly, but you can't say they didn't put effort into making great looking models, making a balanced codex (ok it seemed ever-powered at first), and the fluff is generally good (except for the OMG we killed even more than whatever the last codex was syndrome) . . . and also I can't believe you forgot about that famous monstrous creature . . . Mephiston

Oshova

Having not seen the deep striking land raider yet, I'd love to see it in a game, I got the horn track from the Dukes of Hazzard on my computer ready to play at the tap of a button.

I believe it looks something like this;

**Kurgash**

Aduro wrote:
Trevak Dal wrote:
Oshova wrote:OK yes they weren't very imaginative with the Blood Angels names, and the deepstriking Land Raider is a bit silly, but you can't say they didn't put effort into making great looking models, making a balanced codex (ok it seemed ever-powered at first), and the fluff is generally good (except for the OMG we killed even more than whatever the last codex was syndrome) . . . and also I can't believe you forgot about that famous monstrous creature . . . Mephiston

Oshova

Having not seen the deep striking land raider yet, I'd love to see it in a game, I got the horn track from the Dukes of Hazzard on my computer ready to play at the tap of a button.

I believe it looks something like this;

One of the cleanest landings yet.

**Xca|iber**

"A good landing is one you can walk away from. A great landing is one where you can fly the plane again."

Or in this case, the Land Raider.

**geordie09**

Cadaver wrote:For me the Tau are not really that interesting. However, the idea of them incorporating other races is really interesting. I'd like them to really expand to a larger alliance of various races. The idea of a conglomerate of races, with new races being introduced without themselves requiring a full army is really cool and adds some depth to the 40k universe, IMO. The lesser races have never really been explored and I think the Tau are are perfect faction to do just that.

This could be the oppurtunity GW have been looking for to introduce the mysterious Barghesi xenos! Apparently a Marine Chapter guards this area of space to prevent the Tyranids from exploiting some kind of biogenetic rage that these xenos have... minimal fluff is available but if these were to be introduced it could be the CC option!

also... the Valkyrie can drop troops on route but only Storm Troopers who have selected the particular rule. The Tau drop ship could be similar in that only the particular unit can have that ability and other units are carried as normal!

I have to admit though, the idea of a new Codex by Mr Ward isn't all that suprising as he seems to write them all these days and makes everybody have super duper codex rules! Did he write SW and BA?

Wheres the new Dark Angel rules eh? I know Marines get a lot of releases but have you tried the DA codex versus anything more recent? It's a proper disadvantage! Rant over.

**Kilkrazy**

Aduro wrote:
Trevak Dal wrote:
Oshova wrote:OK yes they weren't very imaginative with the Blood Angels names, and the deepstriking Land Raider is a bit silly, but you can't say they didn't put effort into making great looking models, making a balanced codex (ok it seemed ever-powered at first), and the fluff is generally good (except for the OMG we killed even more than whatever the last codex was syndrome) . . . and also I can't believe you forgot about that famous monstrous creature . . . Mephiston

Oshova

Having not seen the deep striking land raider yet, I'd love to see it in a game, I got the horn track from the Dukes of Hazzard on my computer ready to play at the tap of a button.

I believe it looks something like this;

LOL!

I hope my post doesn't count as spam/banal.

**Monster Rain**

Aduro wrote:
Trevak Dal wrote:
Oshova wrote:OK yes they weren't very imaginative with the Blood Angels names, and the deepstriking Land Raider is a bit silly, but you can't say they didn't put effort into making great looking models, making a balanced codex (ok it seemed ever-powered at first), and the fluff is generally good (except for the OMG we killed even more than whatever the last codex was syndrome) . . . and also I can't believe you forgot about that famous monstrous creature . . . Mephiston

Oshova

Having not seen the deep striking land raider yet, I'd love to see it in a game, I got the horn track from the Dukes of Hazzard on my computer ready to play at the tap of a button.

I believe it looks something like this;

Battle Brothers Bo and Luke sure are in a spot.

Warboss Hogg is ornerier than a badger in a gum bush, and it sure don't look like the General Lee is going anywhere any time soon. I reckon they won't be getting out of this pickle.

**Ehsteve**

AlexHolker wrote:
Grundz wrote:
AlexHolker wrote:Having a small warp presence would be no more effective a defence against psychic powers than having no warp presence (i.e. an object). It might help against telepathic attacks, but to protect yourself from something like Lightning Arc you need to exert your own influence on the warp.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Blanks

I'd define Blanks as having a negative warp presence. They certainly have some effect on their psychic surroundings, or they wouldn't disrupt psionic activity not directed at them personally.

If you're looking at a bonfire, it is a lot easier to see, you can feel the presence of heat at a further distance than say...a kindling fire.

I'd say with Psychic shooting attacks, always roll to hit against regular Tau units (i.e. firewarriors, battlesuits etc) and -1 to the creature's BS. They're harder to detect than your average bear.

Area of effect powers: well it's an AoE, regardless of your presence (with the exception of blanks) it will affect you.

Regarding Blanks:

Like so many other fantasy/sci-fi sequels, there has to be some sort of entity which cannot be detected/attacked by 'regular means' and the protagonist must figure some way to defeat it. It's nothing new or special.

It's not being a negative warp presence, it's being something different entirely, like a big bowl of water (representing the warp) and throwing a ball of sodium in, crazy stuff happens to the water around it becuase of some sort of rejection/reaction to their presence. Perhaps for all we know they'll go for the traditional Star Wars approach: You lack a special microscopic entity X, unlike all living beings (necrons are dead as the dodo people, space zombies).

For example, if a pariah and a psyker were to come into contact, there wouldn't be some leveling of warp presence. Because a leveling of warp presence would make them NEUTRAL, this does not compute.

**puma713**

I don't have much to add to the thread.

I would love to see Knarlocs in the new Tau codex though.

**Azure**

puma713 wrote:I don't have much to add to the thread.

I would love to see Knarlocs in the new Tau codex though.

That would be so freaking Knarly.

**Sidstyler**

TBD wrote:
Grundz wrote: It seems to me that each codex that comes out is designed to modify the metagame

GW doesn't design with tournament/competitive play in mind, so I doubt they give a feth about metagame.

I'm sure they do. They're not that slowed.

**Buzzsaw**

Oshova wrote:
QuietOrkmi wrote:I wish that they would just update everyone simultaneously... In MTG, could you imagine if they released blocks that did not include colors?

However MTG takes minimal effort to come up with the rules for a couple of hundred new cards. Then some time spent doing art.

Not months/years writing fluff and background, doing 2D design, then 3D design on all the different variations in each model to go in a unit, of which there are a large amount of units. There's writing the rules and stats as well. Doing all the playtesting, painting up models, getting the publicity out there. Now do you see why it takes so much longer to re-do GW's rules?

I agree that sometimes it takes a long time to see stuff re-done. But I would rather wait longer and get a finished, good product. Than have it rushed out, and get an inferior product.

Oshova

Without the "I would rather wait longer..." bit, I honestly would have thought this post was sarcasm.