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Putting your opponent in a position where you ask them to break the rules that you already agreed to is being very rude. If they say "no, you can't break the rules", you make them out to be a jerk. You are pressuring them into agreeing to your breach of the agreement.

The very concept is so backwards that knowingly going over in points has always been completely unfathomable to me.

As far as rules go, the book is explicitly clear on this point, an agreed upon point limit may not be exceeded. No rules debate here, just people rationalizing rude behavior.

jp400 wrote:

It is ONE frigging point people. Outside tourny play, nobody should really give a hoot, unless you want to be a rule nazi or TFG.

If it is one frigging point, then why don't you remove it?

It isn't just "one frigging point", is it? No, that one measly little point is joined by his 129 little friends that makes an additional Vendetta possible (just an example).

What.... did someone say if one guy showing up with less then or right at the agreed on point total and the other guy comes with a list thats over. The guy with the list not over the total is out to only win and not the one there for fun. If you agree to a point total and you have even 10 minute before a game, you should be able to get it right, you should atleast show the other guy that much respect.

In a friendly i allow 2pts over because I round up/down in 5s.
But at 3 points it is closer to the 5pt mark which is 1 war gear upgrade.

In a tournament however I wouldn't allow it at all.

Yeah, it is kinda odd.

It seems that the statement; "Anybody that doesn't let me go a few points over is obviously a WAAC gamer.", makes perfect sense to the people that advocate going over is OK.

I wonder what they would think of an equally erroneous statement like; "Anybody that goes over is list-tailoring and obviously a WAAC gamer."?

This ties into another thing that has me puzzled.

Who doesn't make their list beforehand and why don't they?

When I show up for a game I bring a list and the models I need.
I mean, do these people bring their entire collection and then make lists on the fly AFTER agreeing to play a game?

Even when I haven't arranged any games beforehand, I still make a list, bring the models and then show up to see who's there to play.

Why don't these people make a list beforehand?
Wouldn't this prevent any situations along the lines of; "I will not force my opponent to spend 15 minutes reworking his list."?
Do these people hold off on making their list because they would like to know who they are facing, before tailoring their list to that opponent?

I guess that the concept of bringing my entire collection along with me and THEN make a list at the store is completely and utterly alien to me.

Ok it's easy to say 'take off one melta bomb', but I've had marine player friends build lists with no upgrades come in at a total of 2001. To trim his ist, he'd have to drop a tac marine. I can say hand on heart, that id have no issue letting him use it.

To those saying its easy to plan points in a pick up game - is that a 3 headed monkey I see? Its easy to plan points when there's a queue of players waiting for a game when you're done? Should I turn round to them, and say "This heathen is 1 point over! But don't worru, I'm making hin rethink his whole list!".

But hey, if everyone at your flgs would rather see the point count enforced rather than play games themselves, that's their decision. I think its fair to say that this debate goes slightly beyond a rules discussion, and also covers elements of practicality.


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@steemage

I've already discussed above why I don't make lists beforehand. At my flgs, I dony know if ill be playing 1 vs 1, 2 vs 2 or apoc. Would you use a "sensible " 40k list in a game of apoc? I certainly wouldn't.

You can make several lists.

But I understand what you are saying.
I play in a club where 1750 and 2000 are standard values for games.
This means that pretty much everybody bring a 1750 or 2000 point list and most bring both 1750-variants and 2000-variants of their list.

I realize that not everybody is in such a happy situation.

I appreciate you acknowledging thay. If my flgs had similar guidelines then id be better prepared, but we don't have anything like that. We just go with whatever types of game are running at the time, so it can be hard to predict.

In friendly games there's no reason to stop someone going slightly over. The slight increase in points will almost never have a significant effect on the game, while the game will likely be far less enjoyable if you bitch at someone for having a 1 point over army.

ph34r wrote:In friendly games there's no reason to stop someone going slightly over. The slight increase in points will almost never have a significant effect on the game, while the game will likely be far less enjoyable if you bitch at someone for having a 1 point over army.

In a friendly game there is no reason to go slightly over either.

If the slight increase in points doesn't have a significant effect on the game, why go over in the first place?

Nobody is bitching. What would you do if I in a calm (perhaps low) voice kindly (perhaps even timidly) pointed out that I would be more comfortable if the lists were not above the point-value? Answer this, please.

Because guess who is the bitching WAAC power gamer now? There is no reason why you request to go over the value has more positive weight attached to it, than my request to please stay within the point-limit.

snakel wrote:Ok just a question on how you guys see this .

I have a 1500 points BA list but its actualy 1501 pts

So the question is allow me to play or say sorry thats too many points?#

Thanks

The answer to your question will vary on your opponent.

I would not mind, as if you are so worried about the tactical implications of losing 5 points (a single piece of wargear) in order to meet the pre-agreed point limitm META tells me you probably don't have as much experience with your doodz as I have with mine.

I hate to say it, but this seems more like a troll thread then anything else (Asking the personal opinion of "being 1 point over" with a biased answer set with no actual "solid" rules questioning.

~DAR

Daemon-Archon Ren wrote:I hate to say it, but this seems more like a troll thread then anything else (Asking the personal opinion of "being 1 point over" with a biased answer set with no actual "solid" rules questioning.

Just my opinion, but I'd consider YMDC to be the place for questions that are not necessarily answered by the BRB, but also as a general sampling of the community to gather a sense of what is usual and customary.

Ouze wrote:
Just my opinion, but I'd consider YMDC to be the place for questions that are not necessarily answered by the BRB, but also as a general sampling of the community to gather a sense of what is usual and customary.

Which I would completely agree with if the question wasn't so heavily biased.

"allow me to play or say sorry thats too many points"

Seems to imply victimization, IMO.

Good night, you people are kinda uptight about this! In tourneys, I can understand point-stickling, but in friendly games...well, I have gone up to 10 points over my limit, and no one ever cares! Plus, war 'taint far, m'boy.*Monocle*

_Tim?

Yep, we're uptight about following the rules, not cheating, all that stuff. If you and I agree to a 1500 point game, then per the rulebook, both our lists are supposed to be 1500 or less. We're not hewre to discuss club rules, house rules, etc, but what the rules are. And the rules say agreed point value or less.

Now do I mind if my opponent goes over in friendly games? No, so long as he gives me a chance to adjust my list and add the same number of points. That could be the meltagun I didn't add, or the extra armor, etc etc. Yes, one point can change the game as it changes the choices you make on the list.

i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should they be under by a point or 2

I was going to type a reply but it was easier to slightly modify one of yours.

I don't get this whole attitude thing.

If you are play testing for something or its casual there is no harm. But if the match you are playing is slightly competitive (or any bit serious) then it is widely rude and arrogant to complain you feel victimised if you are over the rules agreed upon.

That is not what the person is doing here but some others in the thread seem to think it would be acceptable to do this then guilt trip their opponent for making other people wait while they re do their list.

Steelmage99 wrote:Do these people hold off on making their list because they would like to know who they are facing, before tailoring their list to that opponent?

I guess that the concept of bringing my entire collection along with me and THEN make a list at the store is completely and utterly alien to me.

Yes, they often do.


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liam0404 wrote:Ok it's easy to say 'take off one melta bomb',

What if the melta bombs are modelled?

Scott-S6 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Do these people hold off on making their list because they would like to know who they are facing, before tailoring their list to that opponent?

I guess that the concept of bringing my entire collection along with me and THEN make a list at the store is completely and utterly alien to me.

Yes, they often do.

Although, in some playgroups, this is considered perfectly acceptable and both sides can tweak lists based on opponent's army. But, that's a different discussion.

Scott-S6 wrote:

liam0404 wrote:Ok it's easy to say 'take off one melta bomb',

What if the melta bombs are modelled?

Well, if you're consistently playing the same point limit and have a "take all comers" army list, you should be constantly running into this problem and should rip the meltabomb off the model. If this is a one-time issue, just ignore the model. Not being 100% WYSIWYG is more acceptable than being over points, IMO.

Grakmar wrote:Although, in some playgroups, this is considered perfectly acceptable and both sides can tweak lists based on opponent's army. But, that's a different discussion.

How is it possible for both people to do that? At some point one of you is going to have a finished list while the other is tweaking to match.

Or do you show lists, both go away and tweak and then show lists again?

I hate the WysiWyg rule in all it's form. It has caused me to break many models (Read: My brute way of modeling broke them - but it wouldn't of needed to happen)

But the rule is as solid as the points rule. A person may see that melta bomb and spend a units firing turn trying to remove the unit because it is too close to his light transport -forgetting the list he read 15 minutes ago.

Grakmar wrote:Well, if you're consistently playing the same point limit and have a "take all comers" army list, you should be constantly running into this problem and should rip the meltabomb off the model. If this is a one-time issue, just ignore the model. Not being 100% WYSIWYG is more acceptable than being over points, IMO.

You're assuming that the person is question is always playing the same list. It might be sensible to do that but there are many people who seem to be incapable of sticking to a list.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:I highly doubt that the one point is actually going to make a large enough difference to really warrant any sort of consideration. If you really think that that 1 point made a huge difference in you getting tabled, then your just a sore loser who needs to get the stick out their butt.

People are saying that 1501 =/= 1500. Neither does 1499. So, unless they build a list that is exactly 1500 points then by their own standards they wouldn't want to play a list with 1499 points. Unless of course they were just trying to take advantage of said player .

I mean, if you'd really prefer for your opponent to rewrite their list to try to dump that one point instead of just playing them then that's your decision, although I'd prefer to just play the game.

In a game like Warmachine where that one point could actually buy another solo or upgrade a 'jack tremendously then it actually could be a little bit of an issue. That's mostly because points range usually from 15-50 for games instead of 500-2000.

It isn't just 1 point. It is whatever you bought that put you over by 1 point. So if my Wolf Lord on a Thunderwolf had his wolf tooth necklace put him over the limit by 1 point, he is now hitting everything in your army on a 3+. Extra armor on my rhino putting my list over the limit by 1 point is now allowing it to rush onto an objective last turn instead of not being able to move and shoot. There are countless other examples I could give that make it more then just being 1 point over the limit that would affect the game greatly from turn 1 till the end.

Steelmage99 wrote:In a friendly game there is no reason to go slightly over either.

If the slight increase in points doesn't have a significant effect on the game, why go over in the first place?

Nobody is bitching. What would you do if I in a calm (perhaps low) voice kindly (perhaps even timidly) pointed out that I would be more comfortable if the lists were not above the point-value? Answer this, please.

Because guess who is the bitching WAAC power gamer now? There is no reason why you request to go over the value has more positive weight attached to it, than my request to please stay within the point-limit.

Actually there is, sometimes it's the difference between an organized, fluffy, themed list, and one that is perfectly balanced except one tac squad has 9 members for some reason.
If you asked me that I would probably say, "why, do you think that my one tac marine which puts me 1 point over will change the course of the game significantly? You would rather me be 15 points under with an unbalanced and unfluffy list than be 1 point over?"
In this case nobody would be a bitching WAAC power gamer, but if one person had to be it, it'd definitely be you.

liam0404 wrote:First things first, you need to calm down. You've 100% misinterpreted what I've been saying... If you've got further criticism of me, id happly challenge you to a 1500 vs 2001 point game, and show you how to win without bitching about 1 point extra.

I seem to have 100% correctly interpreted what you're saying, you haven't shown anywhere where I've actually misinterpreted anything. You didn't use the phrase "TFG", but when you accuse someone of WAAC and of going berserk over something that doesn't matter, it means you're accusing them of being TFG. And why are you telling me to calm down when you're the one issuing Internet Blowhard Challenges? Do you really think that challenging people to play a game magically turns your arguments valid?

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

In friendly games, it doesn't matter. Really. If you play friendlies to WAAC, then you may as well hang up your dice now. At my FLGS, players are more concerned with enjoying the game than going berserk at the extra point on the table.

How is saying that "it doesn't matter", accusing me of "WAAC", and calling it "going berserk" to say "this list is over, I thought we agreed to 2000 points, can you make a legal list?" anything other than accusing me of being TFG? It was obvious from the start that this was the line of argument that you were taking, the fact that you were trying to hide the TFG accusation a bit doesn't change that arguing 'it doesn't matter' almost inevitably leads to 'you're TFG if you don't agree with me and think it does matter'.

I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

If someone fielded an overpointed list in a tourney, id be part of the lynching mob. In friendlies, its not a big deal. You also seem to have this idea (from where I don't have a clue) that id stop my oponnent from being slightly over points. Have I said that? No. Id happily allow it to let the game commence quicker.

You said that if you're 5 points under, you won't accept playing the game giving 5 points to your opponent, but instead will tack on one more piece of wargear taking you to 3 over instead of 5 under, then try to get your opponent to accept it (and accuse him of "going berserk" if he doesn't allow it according to your latest post). You say that you'd happily allow it, but in your example you don't allow it at all.

Again, if it's no big deal, why not just play 5 under instead of tacking on one more thing to go 3 over? You're willing to call 3 over in your favor no big deal, but fight hard against being 5 under. And while it's easy to issue an Internet Challenges that you know you won't have to follow through on to play 500 points under, the fact is that your own example showed you completely unwilling to play 1% of that under.

I agree with Gwar! (as if my opinion really maters).
But, if it's a friendly game and both sides agree with the "point cushion" I don't see any harm.

BEAULONEA wrote:I agree with Gwar! (as if my opinion really maters).
But, if it's a friendly game and both sides agree with the "point cushion" I don't see any harm.

Dont worry, he is usually right and he likes the ego boost lol.

But the general consensus here is that it matters in serious or tournament games.

ph34r wrote:Actually there is, sometimes it's the difference between an organized, fluffy, themed list, and one that is perfectly balanced except one tac squad has 9 members for some reason.
If you asked me that I would probably say, "why, do you think that my one tac marine which puts me 1 point over will change the course of the game significantly? You would rather me be 15 points under with an unbalanced and unfluffy list than be 1 point over?"

Downgrade a meltagun to a flamer.

Scott-S6 wrote:What if the melta bombs are modelled?

By RAW, WYSIWYG only says that you have to model upgrades, not that everything that could be an upgrade on the model must have points paid for it, so it fits RAW.

Is there really any gaming environment that is strict, unbending 100% WYSIWYG, no proxies or 'that just looks cool, it's not an upgrade' but also doesn't care if lists have the correct number of points? I would think anywhere that strict on modeling would be similarly strict on what you're modeling following the rules.




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ph34r wrote:Actually there is, sometimes it's the difference between an organized, fluffy, themed list, and one that is perfectly balanced except one tac squad has 9 members for some reason.

I would like for you to post a list where this happens in the Army List forum. If all of your assault, tac, and dev squads are 10-man, they all come out to even multiples of 10 points, and their wargear options all cost multiples of 5. Vanguard vets, terminators, sternguard vets, bikers, scout bikers, command squads, and honor guard all cost multiples of 5 points. All standalone characters cost multiples of 5 points, as do all vehicles and transports. The only way that I can think of to get 1 point over is by taking odd minor wargear choices (like 2 power armor ICs each with a storm bolter), but in that case you could take off one of the minor pieces of wargear instead of a tac marine.

In order to get a list where the cheapest way to scrape 1 point and still be legal, you'd need to take no upgrades that cost less than 16 points, and no upgrades that have a lesser, similar upgrade with a difference of less than 16 points. That means no combi-weapons, melta guns, plasma guns, plasma cannons, lascannons, melta bombs, power weapons, lightning claws (could drop to power weapon for 15), power fists (could drop from fist to weapon for 10 points), thunderhammers (could drop from hammer to fist for 5), devastator heavy weapons (can drop to a lower one or drop a 15 point one entirely), vehcile upgrades, and a whole bunch of other stuff I'd be suprised not to see in any list someone called fluffy.

I just don't believe that you have a set of genuine fluff that generates such a specific list limitation that you genuinely would be forced to remove a tactical marine.

In this case nobody would be a bitching WAAC power gamer, but if one person had to be it, it'd definitely be you.

I think the guy who is trying to go over points and is making a lame excuse about a 'fluffy, themed' list is clearly the WAAC guy. If the theme of your list is 'be one point over', or your fluff is made up just to let you take a specific list, your opponent is not the one being unreasonable. I don't see how you're genuinely getting a list that is 1 point over and has no option other than removing a tac marine to be legitimate.

Since i started this i will try and end it (note the word try, i am sure it will go on )

Ok the post was not a troll i had misscaulated my list and it came in at 1501 when it was actualy 1491.

While i was still under the false asumption i thought just for a general feel i would ask what people thougth about being over points .

I have myself only been over points a few times and that was when i started playing

Also i knew if my list was over my normal gaming friends would have had no problem with it .

Since at some point i may want to play other people ,i wanted to know what the general feeling would be regarding this points vs over points issue

Playing friends allows me to know that the points over is deliberate or not .

playing people i dont know would not .

If any of my posts were taken in the wrong way i apologise, but i did feel that i was being made out to be some sort of monster for asking, if people would accept a list 1 point over the limit

In the end we all have our ways of playing be it rules are never broken or leeway be given .