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The awesome thing is that I actually have a DH list that is one point shy of being able to shoehorn one more GKT into it. I appreciate you having no moral qualms about me running it. I was actually considering dropping one of the four landraiders to fit it in, along with some other slightly less awesome stuff to fill the other points I'd gain back. Not that we'd ever play each other, but I'm happy you'd let me use it. I'm sure it wouldn't make much difference anyway.

As stated - points is points so anything over is DQed from a tourney setting.

However in a friendly, just warn me and no problem. Often done a pick up game where someone runs 10 pts or so over and then I either adjust up to meet or live with it. Percentage wise it is not a big deal but if you had week(s) to prepare a tournament list you can get at or under the points limit.

Gwar! wrote:

SamplesoWoopass wrote:To answer your question, because having 500 extra points can actually have a huge impact on the game. Whereas 1 point does not.

Incorrect.

1 Point can mean you have a single Targetter in your army instead of none, which means you can essentially pre-measure all your shooting.
1 Point can mean the difference between having Mephiston in the army and not.

1 Point can make a massive difference, and that is why the rules tell you to have the limit or less.

Well, how many points is this target-er? If it's 1 point then, as I said, go ahead and drop it because doing that is quite simple. The thing is, is that it isn't 1 point the difference between having mephiston or not. Because if the choice is between him and a 5 point flamer upgrade they'll drop the flamer and take the HQ. So, I guess the difference between our thoughts really lies in that I see the one point difference coming from the least important thing that they have in their army and you see it as coming from the biggest and baddest things they have in their army.

And again, the rules also tell me to ignore some rules if both players agree to it. And being 1 point over is something I could easily agree to let my opponent do.

In that case, you're not running a 2001 point list. You're running a 2001 point-but-drop-the-cheapest-upgrade-when-your-opponent-notices-and-calls-you-out list.

kirsanth wrote:Ask your opponent to play a 1501 point game?

Seriously. There is nothing that says the game must be played with point increments of 10 or anything.
If it is going to take you soooo long to remake a list that is actually 1500 or less (as was apparently agreed), play a 1501 game instead.

daedalus wrote:In that case, you're not running a 2001 point list. You're running a 2001 point-but-drop-the-cheapest-upgrade-when-your-opponent-notices-and-calls-you-out list.

Ummm no actually, because I'm not the one running said list. Also, if I'm playing an opponent and they get in a such a huge hissy fit over 1 point then chances are I probably would not want to play them. That aside, they'd drop the least important thing to their army and thus, that one point really doesn't make the difference in a game that people are suggesting. And as such I'd let my opponent play with it because it means there's no chance of starting any trouble or being seen as a douche bag.

I think that if this happened in real life with a stranger you probably wouldn't bitch at them to change their list, but since this is the internet you're much more likely to get up-in-arms about it.

tournament play I wouldnt allow it. pick up game i dont care. Hell I've let people play 10 points over in pick up games.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:

daedalus wrote:In that case, you're not running a 2001 point list. You're running a 2001 point-but-drop-the-cheapest-upgrade-when-your-opponent-notices-and-calls-you-out list.

Ummm no actually, because I'm not the one running said list. Also, if I'm playing an opponent and they get in a such a huge hissy fit over 1 point then chances are I probably would not want to play them. That aside, they'd drop the least important thing to their army and thus, that one point really doesn't make the difference in a game that people are suggesting. And as such I'd let my opponent play with it because it means there's no chance of starting any trouble or being seen as a douche bag.

I think that if this happened in real life with a stranger you probably wouldn't bitch at them to change their list, but since this is the internet you're much more likely to get up-in-arms about it.

If I was in that situation, I would say agree to play a game slightly over 1500 pts. But, I would insist on increasing it to 1503 or 1505 or something so that I could get another upgrade.

The player that shows up with a legal list shouldn't be penalized.

I'm just saying that there are many circumstances that I've organized myself into a less optimal list in the interest of being within a particular number of points, such that if the expectation of being one or two points over was set upfront, I could have brought something I'd be much more comfortable with. I suppose long as the other person had no problem with me picking up a one or two point upgrade to even it out, well, I'd still not be thrilled, but I wouldn't complain at that point. One of my friends actually did this in a game. It was the difference between him having an Exarch in each of his squads, or just having another guy in one of his other squads and having one Exarch less. And yes, I feel it did make a difference. He had cheaper upgrades he could have dropped for it, true, but he wanted to keep all of those such that he probably would have given up the Exarch first.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This actually really forces another question. We agree to a point value. I stay within it; you (hypothetically) go over it. Why am I the bad guy for wanting someone to play within the amount that we specified? Bad Analogy time: If we were playing poker, and we had a max bet, and you bet $2 over the bet, would I be a jerk for calling you out on it?

Depends entirely on how you go about it really. It just seems to me like people are getting way too uptight about a friendly game of toy soldiers. I mean, if there's money on the line then that could be understandable, but there isn't in this situation.

On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over? I don't think so, but it seems some people might disagree.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:Depends entirely on how you go about it really. It just seems to me like people are getting way too uptight about a friendly game of toy soldiers. I mean, if there's money on the line then that could be understandable, but there isn't in this situation.

On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over? I don't think so, but it seems some people might disagree.

Again the issue is friendly or tournament. You should be comfortable fielding a 1496 list if the only option is to take or not take a 5 pt modification. For a friendly match I have absolutely no problem but 1501
in a 1500 pt limit tournament is a DQ or a major infraction in my mind. That tells me you can't properly add with a week + to figure out a list that works.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over?

Anything you and your opponent agree upon is a valid rule.
Like the point value of the game, for example. . . .

Did you both agree point total? Yes
Did you olny have 20 minute to make your list? No, at min you will have a day to make a list.

So you have a day to make a list and still one point over. Now unless he can't count right he has more then enough time to get it under the point total. Someone keeps saying if we want them to be under or right at point total, now we have to what until they rewrite there list. Why not just have them toss one model and just play, he knew he was over maybe next time he will not be.

Now if he clears it with me ahead of time and we agree so be it, but thats not showing up hopeing I don't notice or making my what while they figure out what to drop.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:Depends entirely on how you go about it really. It just seems to me like people are getting way too uptight about a friendly game of toy soldiers. I mean, if there's money on the line then that could be understandable, but there isn't in this situation.

On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over? I don't think so, but it seems some people might disagree.

Again the issue is friendly or tournament. You should be comfortable fielding a 1496 list if the only option is to take or not take a 5 pt modification. For a friendly match I have absolutely no problem but 1501
in a 1500 pt limit tournament is a DQ or a major infraction in my mind. That tells me you can't properly add with a week + to figure out a list that works.

Friendly is one-on-one. Tourney is multiple people that all have to stay within a point limit as a common feature that all parties that want to participate will work with and can't be easily worked out on the day of the tourney. Also usually an infraction is found out after the fact. So cudos for spotting you are over a points limit but then I would ask, "And you didn't change it because?"

The fact is, you agreed to play a 1,500 game and deliberately brought a 1,501 list. That is the very definition of cheating.

Now, if you had agreed to play a 1,501 game, that is different.

Been playing for many years and I've always gone with Webster's on what a limit is. If you've had time to make up a list before hand, you've had time to make it within the limits. If you're just making it up on the spot, ask if it's okay. 99 times out of a hundred I don't mind.
But if you're in a tournament there's no excuse for going over the points limit. Everyone else had the common decency to stay within the limit, why not you?
As for the original post, I hope you'd take the time you've spent reading and commenting to adjust your list so it's within the agreed on limit.Saves heartache that way.

Is it cheating if I allow my opponent to go 1 point over the limit we set? No, because I agree to it. But to my mind, it shows a great amount of disrespect if we set a time and place to play in advance and he can't be bothered to figure things out ahead of time. If it was a situation where it is a true pick up game and the situation was he brought an 1850 point list and I only brought 1600 points worth of stuff if he could get within a point it would be fine. If I go to my LGS I usually bring a variety of lists for different point levels 1250, 1500 1750 and 2000 points. That way I can play and not waste a lot of time at the store figuring out what to use.

kirsanth wrote:

SamplesoWoopass wrote:On the same token, am I a jerk-face cheater-pants for letting someone go one point over?

Anything you and your opponent agree upon is a valid rule.
Like the point value of the game, for example. . . .

Yeah we get it dude... 1501 pts.

@Gwar: You keep saying that but I've already shown how that's not necessarily true and even if it was it doesn't answer the OP's question.

@ Most everyone else: I was assuming this was a friendly pick up game. I thought that was apparent when I said "friendly game of toy soldiers." And like I said, if there's money on the line (IE: a tournament) then it's understandable to not allow it. I still think that some people are getting too uptight/worked up about this game.

DAaddict and Durzod seem to be the most sensible people on here really.

Remember though, most pick-up games are arranged on the spot. And when I arrive at GW or my FLGS, I never know what i'll be playing (apoc, 1 on 1, 2 vs 2 etc), so I don't bother coming with pre-written lists. When you're just knocking a list together for a friendly game, its hard to plan out your points to be as "point efficient" as possible. Myself and my opponents are often 1,2,3 points over for many games. As some have said, if there are offending items of wargear (such as a melta bomb or something), then thats solveable. If it's something like a flamer which would reduce my opponent from 2003 points to 1998 points, im honestly not going to flinch an eyelid at it. Rules are rules yes, but many MANY battle reports in WD have often marginally gone over their limits too - why can;t we put our common sense hat on and do the same?

I'll bring a 1502pt list as well as a 1500pt list in future - that way, if asked if its okay to use a 1501pt list, I'll just counter with my 1502pt list

Actually, I'm amazed at how many of my Ork lists end up 4 points under... - I should probably identify a 5pt item I would have liked to take if we were playing 1501pts...

For a friendly game, I'd rather be playing than waiting or not playing at all...

MekanobSamael wrote:Most armies have a vehicle for balancing those out.
For MEQ, drop a special weapon or a melta bomb.
For Orks, leave off a grot oiler or ammo runt.
For eldar, cut a cheap aspect power.
For Tau, a low-cost vehicle mod, or a drone.

Bottom line: 1,500 points is 1,500 points. 1,501 points isn't.

For Necrons, redesign list.

I don't run over, but if someone is a few points over, (1-4) I don't much care. It's only a game. The people who go crazy over points cost, seem to be the same exact people who only run "competitive list" IE...6 squads of Grey Hunter in Razorbacks. That pisses me off SO much more than some kid who wanted a Combi-melta for his HQ.

DAaddict wrote:As stated - points is points so anything over is DQed from a tourney setting.

However in a friendly, just warn me and no problem. Often done a pick up game where someone runs 10 pts or so over and then I either adjust up to meet or live with it. Percentage wise it is not a big deal but if you had week(s) to prepare a tournament list you can get at or under the points limit.

I concur, if it's a friendly game and your opponent is aware of the over points then they have to option to either match or accept it or not play you. I see what Gwar is saying that even a point can make a hell of a lot of difference but I also agree with SamplesoWoopass, that a few points might not make any difference.

mulkers wrote:For Necrons, redesign list.

Except that Necrons have EXACTLY ONE BUILD.

So that's pretty easy!

SaintHazard wrote:

mulkers wrote:For Necrons, redesign list.

Except that Necrons have EXACTLY ONE BUILD.

So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

Gwar! wrote:So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

SaintHazard wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

You show me a Necron build that doesn't involve "Destroyer lord with warscythe, token block of Warriors, destroyers out the yin-yang and roughly one Monolith for every 750 points" and I'll show a Tau build that successfully incorporates Vespids.

Ouch, we totally tag-teamed that quote fail.

SamplesoWoopass wrote:However, I do think it's a bit strange to expect everyone else to obsess over not being 1 point over just because you do. But again, if you'd prefer to sit around and wait for your opponent to write their new list rather than go ahead and play the game then that's you. I just think that most people would choose the second option.

I think it's a bit strange violate the agreement you made on what points value to use but to act like the guy following the agreement is doing something wrong. Why am I a bad guy for putting in the effort to follow the rules, and the guy who is violating is somehow a victim? I would prefer for my opponent to actually follow the rules in the first place, not to pull some stunt by bringing an illegal list but trying to strongarm me into it by threatening to spend an absurdly long time removing one small upgrade.

I also wonder about this 'minor points' threshold - if you're going to be over, is it OK for me to go over by a little bit too? If you show up with your 'over list', and I say 'that's cool, lets just make it 1505 and I'll take that extra combi-melta I had to ditch in my sternguard' or 'OK, lets just make it 1510 and I'll make that one ML a LC like I wanted', or 'cool, I wanted extra armor on my land raider but couldn't fit it, I'll play at 1515,' or perhaps 'ahh, cool, I'll ditch one combi-weapon and take one more terminator to fill my crusader, 1530 is great,' do you have a problem with any of these? How many points over am I a bad guy to ask for if you're asking for points over? The 'oh I'm just a couple of points over' guys that I've seen tend to think that their overpoints are fine, but letting me take one more thing is terrible.

I would prefer for my opponent to follow the rules. If a new guy realizes after the fight that he screwed up points values for some unit and he's actually 50 points over, I really don't care. If we're making lists on the fly and he wants to bump the points value slightly, I'll take a little extra stuff. But if someone deliberately breaks the rules for advantage, even if he considers the amount small, that's the very definition of cheating. It's not fair to make one person follow the rules and the other not, and it's really not fair try to paint the guy who put in the effort to follow the rules as the bad guy.

^ He said it better than I ever could. +1 to that.