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SaintHazard wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So that's pretty easy!

Lies. Dash has shown that with sufficient META, you can have two or maybe even three Builds!

You show me a Necron build that doesn't involve "Destroyer lord with warscythe, token block of Warriors, destroyers out the yin-yang and roughly one Monolith for every 750 points" and I'll show a Tau build that successfully incorporates Vespids.

@ OP: I think someone recommended this in a similar thread...maybe you should be so kind and give every of your opponents the gift of allowing them to field 1505 points? The point is: If you want to be a little bit over, you shouldn't have a problem when they are a little bit over yours right? Just an idea, an approach.

Edit: darn, just realized that this was mentioned one page earlier! Anyway, can't stress things like this too often.

5 points is the difference between a Mortar and an Autocannon. It makes a hell of a lot of difference to the Rhino heading towards you.

3 points allows for a Singing Spear upgrade. Make a lot of difference to the Land Raider nearby. Plus I get to hear about how his Warlock killed my Land Raider forever.

Saying; "It's just 1 point. It doesn't make a lot of difference" is a huge fallacy. That 1 point might be part of a larger chunk of points that makes it possible to field that extra Hive Guard, Terminator, Meltagun or whatever.

Saying; "Just add a Melta Bomb to one of our Sergeants and we are even" is a fallacy. Said squad might not have been taken to move aggresively forwards....making the upgrade utterly pointless. Hell, it might even induce me to stray from the basic tenents of my battleplan, which I had in mind when I made the armylist. Maybe I even considered giving him a Melta Bomb but discarded the idea because it was a useless waste of points.....and now I add it again to compensate for your unwillingness to follow the rules?

If 1-5 points is no big deal, then remove them. They are "no big deal", remember?

Thank you for putting me in a situation where I, by saying "no", is denying you your "right to have fun". I am not really given a choice. You broke the rules/agreement and suddenly I'M the TFG?!?

We have to set the limit somewhere....and that might as well be at the limit agreed upon beforehand.

I completely agree that in Tournament play its strictly limit only - and for good reason.

Like I said earlier though, in pick up games, I often don;t know whether ill be playing APOC, or 2 vs 2, or some other variant of game. It's difficult to plan your points out properly when youre knocking a list together in 5 minutes, so the odd over point is going to happen. At our GW and FLGS, we write our lists down for all to see, so no-one really has an issue with being 1,2, or 3 points over. If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect. One less terminator sure, but it could have been an HK and a storm bolter on a vehicle that could have done MORE damage.

To re-iterate, in Tournament play, strictly the limit. In friendlies, does anyone really care? The important thing is to get as much killing done as possible. More points means more targets!!!!

liam0404 wrote:Like I said earlier though, in pick up games, I often don;t know whether ill be playing APOC, or 2 vs 2, or some other variant of game. It's difficult to plan your points out properly when youre knocking a list together in 5 minutes, so the odd over point is going to happen. At our GW and FLGS, we write our lists down for all to see, so no-one really has an issue with being 1,2, or 3 points over. If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect. One less terminator sure, but it could have been an HK and a storm bolter on a vehicle that could have done MORE damage.

Why 3 and not 5 or 10? Is it just so that if someone makes their list to the actual point limit, you can claim they're being terribly abusive if they say 'well, you're over, I'll take the combi-weapon I skipped'? It always seems to be that YOUR over points are fine and I'm being TFG if I don't like you not following the rules, but if I try to put MY over points on then I'm TFG for going too many points over. If it really isn't anything to worry about, you should be fine with me going 10 over when you're 3 over and we can start the game, but it doesn't sound like you're fine with that.

And again, if the points are so insignificant, why not take off whatever knocked you 1 point over? You say it's not significant on one hand, but consider someone TFG if you don't get to have it on the other, so you seem to think the points are significant since you get upset at the idea of taking them off.

Did i once mention i was upset? I don't think I did.

I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

I'm with steelmage on this one.
Let's be serious, that single point HAS to do something important (in which case it would be an unfair advantage) or you could just drop it on the spot, in whichever case, that point will be gone before we start...

liam0404 wrote:I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

I think that breaking the rules is something you simply shouldn't do. The only reason you're 3 points over is that you weren't willing to run 5 points under - you could have just taken your 1995 point list and avoided the point of contention entirely. Do you really believe that 3 points is utterly insignificant, but 5 points is hugeley significant and will shift the results dramatically? I doubt you do, so why are you so insistent on running slightly over instead of slightly under?

That's the thing that I don't like about this argument, and that none of the 'no big deal' crowd seem willing to acknowledge. If a few points is so insignificant, what's the big deal with running slightly under instead of slightly over? According to your argument the handful of points is insignificant and not worth worrying over, but the only reason we're having this discussion is that instead of giving the advantage to your opponent, you insist that the advantage should go to you. Why not be the bigger man and give your opponent the advantage you want us to believe is insignificant?

You're acting as though a handful of points is only insignificant if it's in your favor, but is significant if it's in your opponent's favor.

If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect.
In friendlies, does anyone really care?

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

The implication is there - if you go on about 'I hardly think that matters' and 'does anyone really care', what's your response if someone does think it matters or does care? Sounds to me like you're going to respond that they're nitpicking over insignificant things, which is one of the big TFG behaviours. But, if I'm wrong on that, how would you respond if your opponent said 'this list is over, I thought we agreed to 2000 points, can you make a legal list?'

1500 means 1500 or less.

Our gaming group is very clear on this point.

As has been said earlier, if you are 1 or 5 points over, drop off a melta bomb or some other unit upgrade.

I tend to be rather forgiving about people over the points limit.

I have confidence in my list building, and generally in a regular day of gaming I just want to get started, and actually play the game
Watching somebody toil an additional 5-10 minutes and gripe about me being a stickler is not worth it to me, even if it would be the right thing to do.

I personally never go over, and generally my lists are between 4 under and exactly on target. But this is due more to my own honor code than anything else.

But my honor code is more rigorous than most peoples, I play lists built up in advance at my house without knowing my opponent. So no list tailoring... you get the idea. I want to win because of skill, not because I tailored my list to beat my opponent an went over the limit to fit in more upgrades and powers.

Well i can see i opened a can of worms with my original post

i have in the past had a list 1 and 5 pts over the limit and yes so has my regular oppnenets ,also my current list is 10 pts bellow the limit and i would allow my oppnent to be over his by say 5 pts with no moaning at all

All i can say is i am glad i dont do tournys since i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should i go over the limit by a point or 2

But the post was started to let me know what the general feeling was and it seems that most people are more interested in winning than playing for fun since they would stamp there feet like a child if i were 1 point over.

Guys be real at some point you have to say sure fine its a few points who cares and the same goes if your over .

I do make my list hit or below the limit 99% of the time but its a game not llife and death ,

If you cant play friends and give a little leeway then i feel for you

snakel wrote:All i can say is i am glad i dont do tournys since i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should i go over the limit by a point or 2

So do you mind if I move all my infantry 7 or 8" then while you move yours 6"? After all, it's only an inch or two.

snakel wrote:But the post was started to let me know what the general feeling was and it seems that most people are more interested in winning than playing for fun since they would stamp there feet like a child if i were 1 point over.

I am glad I do not regularly play people who cannot count as well as many children.

On a serious note, you may want to check out your OP, you never mention tourney or friendly game. So people saying it is an issue in a tourney are giving perfectly relevant responses.

And again, if you have agreed to play by any rules or rules changes with an opponent--even in a tourney--that is fine.

If you regularly say that 2000 point lists can be 2013 points, why not just make 2013 point lists from the get-go? Having someone hold you to agreed upon limit (points or not!) is not a good example of being "more interested in winning than playing for fun". It an easily an example of assuming someone meant what they said and is NOT trying to squeeze extra points in an attempt to win.

I do find it really strange that there is even the hint of an accusation that the person building a list that follows all the agreed upon restrictions is TFG playing only to win--and the guy breaking the agreement and showing up with more is not.

I think I understand where you are coming from, but I think it strange nonetheless.

1 Tournements were not mentioned since i thought it was obvious they were played to win and not really for fun (dont tell me there are for fun they may be fun, put the be all and end all is winning )

2 Its not about being able to count since stating my list is 1501 or 1490 would suggest i could count

3 Its about playing a game for fun and accepting the odd point here and there instead of a flat no your cheating

4 As for moving 8" and 6" that is cheating with intent , to say hey my list is 1505pts not 1500 that ok or do you want me to lose somthing ? with you saying nah its no biggy , is not since i or my oponent was happy to accept it

5 if it was all the time and they could never hit the limit then, yes you would say at some point hey come on you,ve had your leeway now your pushing it

Ok to the original post it was asking what people feelings were regarding this and from the answers i got ,it was clear most people are unable to give any slack suggesting that they cant play the game when they think they might lose due to an extra melta and what not .

I make my lists and like i said 99% they hit the target on the odd few times they dont i would be happy drop somthing if It caused trouble but i would also not have a problem with somone being over

Maybe its me but i was thinking the general opinion would be sure as long as it was not all the time 1 point no biggy but instead it was a flat no 1500 =1500 not 1501

This is a forum not a live chat ,you can only read what is written and the replies were worded in a way as to say never, oh no you can do that , or hey your cheating

But still i love a good argument everynow and then and this has been a good one so thanks all for your input and however you view it, it only matters if the people you play view it differently

snakel wrote:4 As for moving 8" and 6" that is cheating with intent , to say hey my list is 1505pts not 1500 that ok or do you want me to lose somthing ? with you saying nah its no biggy , is not since i or my oponent was happy to accept it

So why is the rule to stay under the limit less important than the one that says you can only move infantry 6"?

LOL did i say less important?

I did however say that being a few point over if your oppnent is ok with it is no biggy

and as for anyone that mentioned tournments they would be right since they are tournements and trying to gain an advantage in an arena ment for winning and not just for fun would be cheating

The point here is cheating with intent or not how do you view that, making a list over limit taking advantage of there good nature is cheating ,making a list and asking you oppnent" hey can i go 1 point over and him saying sure its no biggy "once in a while is not

I think anyone with half a brain can see how ridiculous the "let me have 3 extra points because they're not a big deal" camp starts to sound when you realize that 1) it's a not a big deal as long as they're the ones going over the predetermined limit, and 2) if they're making a big deal out of keeping those extra 3 points, clearly they're actually a pretty big deal.

Quit being hypocrites and follow the damn rules already.

Actually, I dislike people who have 'over' lists and then drop whatever weapon or wargear that won't be used or effective against your army.

What if I had an ork list that was points over, and every time I played Nids I dropped bombsquigs but when I played marines I dropped a big shoota? Maybe when I play a skimmer-heavy army I drop grenades?

This selective pre-game tweaking of non-optimal stuff in the name of coming in under points should *NOT* be tolerated. It is selfish and a bit rude and changing 'what you drop' every game can seriously impact things.

snakel wrote:I did however say that being a few point over if your oppnent is ok with it is no biggy

The thing is, why do you consider this an acceptable to even ask? If I were to ask, "Can all my units move an extra inch?", what would you say?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nkelsch wrote:Actually, I dislike people who have 'over' lists and then drop whatever weapon or wargear that won't be used or effective against your army.

What if I had an ork list that was points over, and every time I played Nids I dropped bombsquigs but when I played marines I dropped a big shoota? Maybe when I play a skimmer-heavy army I drop grenades?

This selective pre-game tweaking of non-optimal stuff in the name of coming in under points should *NOT* be tolerated. It is selfish and a bit rude and changing 'what you drop' every game can seriously impact things.

Also this. It's not hard to make a list come equal to or under.

BearersOfSalvation wrote:

liam0404 wrote:I think that taking an upgrade that costs 8 pts for example that takes you up to 2003 is more forgiveable, than being at 1999 points and taking 1 extra tactical marine. THAT's what im getting at. If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it. I'm more referring to the example at the beginning of this paragraph.

I think that breaking the rules is something you simply shouldn't do. The only reason you're 3 points over is that you weren't willing to run 5 points under - you could have just taken your 1995 point list and avoided the point of contention entirely. Do you really believe that 3 points is utterly insignificant, but 5 points is hugeley significant and will shift the results dramatically? I doubt you do, so why are you so insistent on running slightly over instead of slightly under?

That's the thing that I don't like about this argument, and that none of the 'no big deal' crowd seem willing to acknowledge. If a few points is so insignificant, what's the big deal with running slightly under instead of slightly over? According to your argument the handful of points is insignificant and not worth worrying over, but the only reason we're having this discussion is that instead of giving the advantage to your opponent, you insist that the advantage should go to you. Why not be the bigger man and give your opponent the advantage you want us to believe is insignificant?

You're acting as though a handful of points is only insignificant if it's in your favor, but is significant if it's in your opponent's favor.

If you lose to the overpointed player, I hardly think the difference of 3 points is going to have had that significant effect.
In friendlies, does anyone really care?

No one accused you of being TFG, so don't say that I did.

The implication is there - if you go on about 'I hardly think that matters' and 'does anyone really care', what's your response if someone does think it matters or does care? Sounds to me like you're going to respond that they're nitpicking over insignificant things, which is one of the big TFG behaviours. But, if I'm wrong on that, how would you respond if your opponent said 'this list is over, I thought we agreed to 2000 points, can you make a legal list?'

First things first, you need to calm down. You've 100% misinterpreted what I've been saying. In tourneys, the limit is there, and its cast iron. In pick up games, its easily bent. At my FLGS, often you hear "I'm a couple over, is that ok?" and no one ever has an issue. In friendly games, it doesn't matter. Really. If you play friendlies to WAAC, then you may as well hang up your dice now. At my FLGS, players are more concerned with enjoying the game than going berserk at the extra point on the table. If someone fielded an overpointed list in a tourney, id be part of the lynching mob. In friendlies, its not a big deal. You also seem to have this idea (from where I don't have a clue) that id stop my oponnent from being slightly over points. Have I said that? No. Id happily allow it to let the game commence quicker.

If you've got further criticism of me, id happly challenge you to a 1500 vs 2001 point game, and show you how to win without bitching about 1 point extra.

In a pick up game, where your opponent did not know what point limit you were playing and needed to write a quick list to get started I don't mind over points. Both because their list will not be optimized and because we can start the game quicker.

In a pre-determined game (friendly or tournament) where my opponent showed up with overpoints I would be annoyed. We agreed on a point limit and build our lists in advance so we could start immediately. By going over the points limit you force me to choose between 2 bads:

1). I ask you to rewrite your lists, taking out time which we could have spend playing, with the risk of being called nit-picky because I like to follow the rules, or
2). Allow you to use your list, which I do not like, feeling cheated the entire game. Just so we can get started

The points limit is there for a reason and unless you play with people you know and already discussed with that the limit is "flexible" you should keep to that limit.

The thing that gets me in this entire discussion is that somehow the person that is following the rules is the bad guy, ruining the fun of the game. Every game has a rule set that keeps the game fair and fun for everyone. Calling people that like to follow these rules the ones that take away the fun seems strange to me.

In the end it is always up to you and your opponent, but if you want to deviate from the core rules you better discuss this well before the game, and not at the table just before you start. So even though in specific cases it might not be an issue (like the people snakel plays with), this is not something that can be assumed to be accepted in general.

liam0404 wrote:If i'm at 2001 points and I have an item of wargear worth 1 point, of course ill drop it.

But why would you come to a 2000 point game with 2001 points when you have an item of wargear that you could have dropped pre-game? That makes next to no sense.

The other thing that is being missed here is that if I go to a LGS, or a new club, or to play a pick up game, I may not know the person I'm playing. That's the whole point of a pick up game, particularly at an LGS or GW store, or whatever.

If I go to play a pick up game against someone I don't know, and they overpoint their list (that we agreed upon), then what does that tell me about the player? How do I ask them to re-do their list? How do I know how they'll react? Do I even want to play them? If they're going to do this at the list building phase, what might I encounter actually playing the game?

When two people agree to play a game of toy soldiers, there should be an expectation of mutual respect and responsibility as it pertains to the game, and its conduct.

As has been pointed out, once you start cutting corners, then where do you end up?

If its not obvious, I'm in the 'exactly at the agreed points or under' camp.

snakel wrote:1 Tournements were not mentioned since i thought it was obvious they were played to win and not really for fun (dont tell me there are for fun they may be fun, put the be all and end all is winning )

I am paying to go to a tourney this weekend for fun. To each their own.

snakel wrote:But still i love a good argument everynow and then and this has been a good one so thanks all for your input and however you view it, it only matters if the people you play view it differently

Why would anyone ever build a list that is over. If you know the people at your FLGS play 1500 points then why wouldn't you spend a few minutes and write a list that is under that before you show up at the store. I've got plenty of lists that come in 5-10 points under because I can't fit something else in that I want without going over. You've made your list before you've gone to the store so why can't you be bothered to make a list that is for the normal points games.

Now if you're at and you have a 1750 list and someone else brought 1500 and you can only drop to 1505 easily and the other guy is cool with you having more points then go for it. If you plan for a game of a predetermined point value, make a list for that point value.

personally i run lists that are often 10-15 points under, Simply because i dont have the ability to really use the remaining 15 points to my liking, and taking what i want would put me over. in friendly games you often agree to a points limit at a certain time and place, and thats what you play. being over is simply disrespectful to your opponent. we have a guy like this at our FLGS. he always shows up with 1502 or 2003 pts and says oh its just 3 pts whatever. my response and most others is, well then loose that 5 point bolter, or squad upgrade and deal with it. he responds with "But that wrecks my battleplan!" which leads myself and others to respond with "well not playing the game wrecks it more" thus, i am forced to state that i agree with the others. a points LIMIT is a limit for a reason. if its no big deal to be over 1 point, then loose something and be a few points under. the guy in previous example is TFG and now no one plays him, unless he adjusts his list.

The only time i see exception to be made, is in a quick pickup game when you dont have time to plan, and are both hashing out lists without a set point value. ie: "well i have 1850 roughly... can you do that? no, ok how about this..." and so on. However these games are often set to 1 players limit, such as the 1850, the other player ends up padding his list to match but both are under the set value of 1850. (player 1 at 1848 and player 2 at 1830, or something simaler)

</end> rant

Even in friendly games with my friends, we are strict on the points limit, and would not allow an extra point. The problem is that it leads to a slippery slope - what about 10 extra points? What about 15? After all, for a 1500pt game, that's just 1%. What about 30?

At some point, it's just better to avoid those arguments. Now, if there were only a few choices in the book, and you'd either be 200 points short or 1 point over - like if every unit was 230 points or something - then it would be a different situation. But it's not. Every list that is 1500 points has a few upgrades in the 5 points or less category.

EDIT: removed rant that won't achieve anything anyway, this is up to the TO.

Gwar! wrote:

snakel wrote:All i can say is i am glad i dont do tournys since i prefer fun games with people i know who wont stamp there feet should i go over the limit by a point or 2

So do you mind if I move all my infantry 7 or 8" then while you move yours 6"? After all, it's only an inch or two.

And off to the left ladies and gents, we have what we call a strawman argument.

Oooooh......Ahhhhhhhhh.



It is ONE frigging point people. Outside tourny play, nobody should really give a hoot, unless you want to be a rule nazi or TFG.

But hey, this is Dakka! Lets argue for 3 pages over one point.

With a bit of OTT reductio ad absurdum thrown in for good measure

edit: JP- You've discredited yourself sir, an argument from personal incredulity and then an ad hominem attack on Dakka!

This thread needs to die!

Well certainly at this point I can't imagine any new perspective or argument will be generated between the only 4 logical ones:

Some people will allow it

Some people will not

Intentionally overcosting that then downgrading once you peek at your opponents forces makes you a tool

It's better to avoid the situation by just following the rules