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I actually had this happen to me. Luckily it was at-43 and not some models that I personally painted.

I was playing a game and a 14 year old was watching the game, talking to us and also being somewhat of a nuisance. We did our best talking with him explaining the game (no reason not to try to get others involved) though he wasn't a random, he did play 40k.

After a while he gets up and knocks a model off the table breaking it. He didn't tip or knock the table, but after standing up he starts to walk away and hits it, a 40 dollar karman speeder. He looks down at the model, shrugs his shoulders and walks away. While it was unclear whether it was intentional, he didn't seem at all upset or apologetic about it.

I demanded he pay for the broken model (or his parent/guardian). He laughed and said no so I picked up the phone and said I was calling the cops, he changed his tune quickly.

Later when his father came to pick him up I went out to meet him and explained his son broke my model and I expected for him to reimburse me. After discussing it with him his dad pulled out 2 20's and paid me.

Some of the other gamers at the store said I handled it badly and I shouldn't have done that. However, I was 14 year old gamer once, and the people I played with only allowed me to play with them because I was respectful of their stuff, he obviously wasn't. I believe in teaching people lessons and paying for mistakes, I do it, they should too.

Later I found out he was banned temporarily from the hobbytown for 2 other occasions, in which he broke others models. I still can't believe the other gamers thought I was the bad guy in it.

My understanding is he hasn't broke anyone else's models since then and has acted more respectful around the gaming area.

To the guys who had something broke and their gaming friends I was a champion, to others I was an A-hole. But they probably thought that about me anyways. Gaming cliches LOL.

d-usa wrote:A couple of thoughts:

1) I am getting really annoyed at people trying to make this a case of people breaking toy soldiers. Frankly, to me it comes across the same way as saying "Boohoo, somebody broke your toy....". If property is being destroyed it does not matter what it is. I will take my Forgeworld dreadnought as an example again. I paid over $100 for that thing. Somebody destroying it on purpose is no different that somebody taking a $100 bill from you and tearing it to shreads, somebody taking your digital camera and throwing it on the ground, or somebody taking your shoes and urinating on them. I care about my property and I will protect it. The amount of protection given to a Space Marine model worth $5 will be different from the amount of protection given to a model worth over $100.

2) I can't speak about anybody else, but I want to make sure that I clarify that I do not advocate "taking it outside", "beating somebody to a pulp", or any other form of vigilante justice. But if you would be jumping on an expensive model of mine then you will at the very least get a push if not a punch to the face. I will inflict the amount of violence needed to stop the destruction of my property. If the guy is no longer stomping on your model, but you are still punching him, then IMO you are going to far. In my mind there is a big difference between using violence to protect your property, and violence for the sake of revenge.

3) If the damaged model was expensive enough, I would not worry about the other guy calling the cops. I would more than likely call the cops myself to make sure a police report is filed about the damage done to my property so that I have the paperwork needed to follow up in small claims court if needed.

4) I am not a lawyer and I do not dispense legal advice. If people take actions based on the opinion of a bunch of folks on a message board, then they are on their own.

Agree with this %100. If it was some 10 year old and they started trashing my stuff i wouldn't hit them however i would physically stop them and due to my size i would be able to. However if we're talking about a young adult up to adult i'd physically stop them and if it resulted in a fight well so be it.
I can't remember who the poster was on page two near the bottom bringing up a lot of "what ifs" in regards to the woodworking class post. My thoughts are this, you can't live your life on what ifs, anything could happen regardless of your action.

firmlog, I think you handled that really well... unfortunately, sometimes with a young gamer like that they're getting it from their parents. I'm glad in this case the parent was willing to rectify the situation... and probably gave their child a bit of discipline afterwards, due to his change in behavior.

RiTides wrote:firmlog, I think you handled that really well... unfortunately, sometimes with a young gamer like that they're getting it from their parents. I'm glad in this case the parent was willing to rectify the situation... and probably gave their child a bit of discipline afterwards, due to his change in behavior.

I'm impressed to that the father paid you back. I guess i've just heard to many instances where parents think their kids can do no wrong. I don't think you handled poorly at all.

I had told the father I would have to call the police as well to file a report. But I imagine he was a bit more honorable than most.

The interesting part was the kid himself never held it against me. While I've moved from that area, I had seen him at later game events and he was always very sociable if not friendly towards me.

FITZZ wrote:

Steel Mage 99 wrote:This thread is just full of internet tough guys.

The amount of "He'll better be able to fight", "I am going to defend my property" and "He'd better be a good runner" is staggering.

Guys, nobody is impressed by your obvious prepubescent posturing.

Yes,because clearly anyone who states they would attempt to prevent their property from being destroyed is some sort of "internet tough guy" or "posturing prepubescent child".
The fact that many of the individuals involved in 40k are Military or ex-Military or perhaps don't fit into a pre-assumed "mold" doesn't factor in whatsoever....right?

Being ex-military (and having studied martial arts for most of my adult life) has helped me see how useful violence is as a teaching tool.

When resorting to violence in connection with the destruction of a model over a wargame, you (generic "you") are trying one of two things;

A. Teach the person that such actions are unacceptable

or

B. Extracting retribution for a wrong done to you.

A will, in my experience, never have the desired effect and B is the job of the law, not you (generic "you").


Me pointing out that I am ex-military and a student of martial arts is actually completely irrelevant as you probably wont believe me anyway. Just like I wont believe that a fraction of the people promoting violence in the situations in question will actually do it.
In my experience the people that talk a lot about it (over the interwebz) are even less likely to.

Anyway, the point of this thread is that advocating violence is no more welcome on DakkaDakka than racism, sexism, homophobia, IP violations and so on.

I have had my mini's broken but not on purpose, I didn't ask them to pay for it merely to say sorry. I didn't ask for payment because it was just a little child who had no clue what he had done. But if he had broken them maliciously it would have been a different story I would have charged him for the figure and hopefully would have got his parents to tell him off.

However if I ever wanted to start a fight with someone over a broken figure Lewis the manager at my FLGS would happily intervene as has been the case before. If an extreme case presented itself such as they were fighting and someone say grabbed a hobby tool the Police would be called as they have been before.

But in reference to the first post, I agree with Lorek in that violence is never the right answer.

insaniak wrote:
It's sometimes an answer. It's sometimes the easiest answer. But the best answer? Not by a long shot. The 'best' answer is one that doesn't involve anyone getting hurt, and that results in whatever is causing the situation to actually be resolved, rather than just trying to impress on someone that he should stop what he's doing because you can hit harder than he can.

Unfortunately you are obviously wrong. It is not very common but sometimes violence is the only answer. I do not advocate it ever being the first answer you take but sometimes maladjusted people (or any other tag you want to use to describe them) just don't listen to reason. Now often this is also followed by adults either not taking the situation seriously or not doing what they should to stop the situation but the need for violence is a provable historical fact. I can literally cite thousands of court cases in which violence was necessary (and justified) as well as historical cases in which violence was needed.

However this is really a foolish topic about something that never really happens anyway. How many people here have had someone break their miniatures on purpose? And of those who have how many have resorted to fisticuffs?

I will point out that legally if someone has broken your miniatures and you assault them after the fact you could go to jail (yes my wife is a lawyer and I asked about this specifically...... and yes she called me a complete dork). But if you are contemplating violence in this situation you had best be careful because there is a world of difference between stopping someone from breaking your items and attacking them after they have already stopped doing it.

And lastly I will point out that if you are hanging around with people who act like this I would suggest you find better people to hang around with.

brettz123, there have been plenty of legal cases in which violence has been regarded as an acceptable (thought not necessarily only) response. I very much doubt that any of those situations involved toy soldiers.

There is a great deal of difference between two things.

1 - Trying to physically defend your property is usually allowed. If he'd smashed a tank and is aiming for the next you can stop him, legally, so long as you don't use too much force. Pinning someone to the ground or simply holding them is very different to wailing on there face screaming, 'I have no more Scropion Green you frakker!'

2 - Attacking them after the fact is not, in anyway and as far as my meagre legal learnings are concerned, legal or justified. Defending your property is one thing. Assaulting someone in revenge is not. It may be classified as aggravated assault rather than plain assault, but your sack is still in a legal sling.

The fact of the matter is, if you go in with fist flying and break some morons nose, if he gets the cops involved you're likely to be the one sitting in a cell, preying the massive hulk of a man on the other side hasn't been there long enough to decide you look purty. Yeah, it sucks your model got broken. But your response has to be reasoned.

Which is not easy, anyone will admit. You get angry, you get stupid and you haul off on the target. It's understandable, of course. It's just not very clever.

At the end of the day, I know at least in the UK, I don't trust the legal system to see any kind of violence in a good light. I've heard horror stories of people breaking into someone's home, stealing half there stuff, ending up breaking there leg...and then suing them for that. Which is madness, to me, but people sue McDonalds for making them fat, so I can believe it.

Hell, I know for a fact that my home town, Derby, has been sued because a conker fell out a tree and bobbed a girl on the head.

If that can happen, what are the chances that 'He re-arranged my face over, at most, a three figure piece of property and quite possibly far less and now I have permanent facial scaring' is gonna see them taking you for every penny? Remember, good folks, you get to rest to reasonable force and only in defence, not in retaliation.

Jon Garrett wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

One could argue that those taking the "Intellectual High Road" of..."I would Never hit someone over destroying my property "..are people that are so accustomed to being victimized that the thought of standing up for themselves is completely alien to them.

Nah, I for one am a big dude. I can hurt folks if I need to. Equally, though, I prefer to avoid trouble with the cops unless it's absoloutly nessecery. A broken model can be fixed. A damaged paint job can be re-painted. It's not like they're throwing cigarettes at my kid or trying to touch up my wife or something.

Ah, sweet perspective, how this thread has missed you so.

As JG has pointed out, a model, regardless of how lovingly painted, is just a thing, and is not worth the same amount level of physical defense as a child or spouse would be. The actions that would be deemed appropriate to protect mere property will never rise to the level of action that would be deemed appropriate to protect an individual.

Steelmage99 wrote:B. Extracting retribution for a wrong done to you.

... and B is the job of the law, not you (generic "you").

I really have to take issue with the idea that it is not the job of private individuals to seek retribution for a wrong.

There are two types of retribution you can take: violent or non-violent.

The police will never engage in (legal) violent retribution against someone for anything. To do so is just as illegal for them as it is for us average citizens. On that note, private physical violent retribution is not strictly 'legal' either. The line drawing is in prosecution, which is never predictable, because cops and prosecutors are notoriously fickle.

Second, private non-violent retribution is most definitely not the job of law enforcement. The job of law enforcement is to enforce the peace, it is not to reimburse or protect people. If you want recompense from someone breaking one of your models, you have to either convince them to reimburse you or sue them. Both are not law enforcement issues, but private disputes.

Steelmage99 wrote:Me pointing out that I am ex-military and a student of martial arts is actually completely irrelevant as you probably wont believe me anyway. Just like I wont believe that a fraction of the people promoting violence in the situations in question will actually do it.
In my experience the people that talk a lot about it (over the interwebz) are even less likely to.

Gotta love the internet tough guys. I have no doubt that you probably are ex-military and a martial arts student, just like you probably don't doubt that I'm a lawyer.

You don't want to start any fight with geeks... you never know what they may be armed with.

biccat- you're mis-reading the quote you're responding to. He said it's the "job of the law". Every time I've heard someone say that, they're including the court system (i.e. suing them, civil or criminal trial, etc).

You're making a point about law enforcement in response to something that isn't there... it is the job of the law (meaning the courts) to punish wrongdoing- it's not up to people to "take it into their own hands" to right a wrong such as this (meaning exacting "retribution" after the fact, not attempting to prevent it from happening). If they do, it's usually the job of the law to punish them in turn... which is one of the points Lorek was making in the OP.

Mannahnin wrote: As Asimov so well reminded us: "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."

Putting aside the arguement whether or not getting getting physical over someone willfully and deliberately destroying your property for the moment(personally I wouldnt), and dealing with Asimov:

Asimov is an idiot, and that statement holds little water in general. Violence is neither something of the incompentent, nor in many cases shoul dbe the last refuge.

If someone purposefully breaks my stuff, i'm going to purposefully break their limbs!

I live in Texas and am not the least bit worried of being convicted of assault over it.

Because even a hundred dollars worth of model is worth the months of suffering for the person when you break someone's bones. And somehow, I suspect, even in Texas, breaking bones over a model you could repair isn't going to go down that well.

For crying out loud people...do you not know how to use a tube of super glue?

Mr Smith (or is it Mrs Mith? Ok, bad joke ) that pretty much sums up the kind of statement that this thread was made in response to.

I personally think that's way out of line, but I'm getting kind of tired of going over the same ground, so I'm going to bow out of the debate...

Jon Garrett wrote:Because even a hundred dollars worth of model is worth the months of suffering for the person when you break someone's bones. And somehow, I suspect, even in Texas, breaking bones over a model you could repair isn't going to go down that well.

For crying out loud people...do you not know how to use a tube of super glue?

i know how to use super glue. doesn't mean i should have to just because some jerk was hugged too much as a child and can't deal with losing except to destroy hundreds of dollars of another man's property. besides, broken arms dont take months to heal, and is a very effective learning experience.

One thing I want to know is how often this even happens? I mean not by accident? Occasionally models fall, get knocked off the table yadda yadda but most of the time it is an accident, and fixable with glue.

But the last time I remember a model being purposefully broken I was like 13-14 years old, and sure the 2 got into a fight then but I mean at that age I would get into fights because I lost at NHL 94 know what I mean? Kids do there thing but how often does it come up were a person say 18+ has broken, purposefully another adult's model? And at what point did it escalate into actual violence? Like actual punches to the face? Not just a hold, or drag out of the store.

It just doesnt seem very plausible that it would get that far between adults. Any stories of it actually happening, were you have had to make a choice of weather or not to bring it to that level? And was it something a simple arm bar or other method of disabling couldnt handle?

yournamehere wrote:One thing I want to know is how often this even happens? I mean not by accident? Occasionally models fall, get knocked off the table yadda yadda but most of the time it is an accident, and fixable with glue.

But the last time I remember a model being purposefully broken I was like 13-14 years old, and sure the 2 got into a fight then but I mean at that age I would get into fights because I lost at NHL 94 know what I mean? Kids do there thing but how often does it come up were a person say 18+ has broken, purposefully another adult's model? And at what point did it escalate into actual violence? Like actual punches to the face? Not just a hold, or drag out of the store.

It just doesnt seem very plausible that it would get that far between adults. Any stories of it actually happening, were you have had to make a choice of weather or not to bring it to that level? And was it something a simple arm bar or other method of disabling couldnt handle?

I wouldn't happen. Not between normal, everyday people anyway.

i know how to use super glue. doesn't mean i should have to just because some jerk was hugged too much as a child and can't deal with losing except to destroy hundreds of dollars of another man's property. besides, broken arms dont take months to heal, and is a very effective learning experience.

Certainly. It's a brilliant lesson I'm trying to teach my kids.

"Someone does something you don't like? Respond with a massive ammount of violence and bodily harm! The police will never get involved if you assault others for breaking your things. Now go beat you sister, she broke that train the other day."

I'm not saying stand there gawping as someone slowly pulls each model apart, occasionally saying 'Please don't do that'. Pick 'em up and move 'em away, pin them to the floor. Whatever. Don't hurt them beyond that though because the law is not your friend beyond that.

And my wife, who had a broken arm, assures me they can take months to heal depending on how clean the break is, where it is, blood supply, etc.

biccat wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:B. Extracting retribution for a wrong done to you.

... and B is the job of the law, not you (generic "you").

I really have to take issue with the idea that it is not the job of private individuals to seek retribution for a wrong.

There are two types of retribution you can take: violent or non-violent.

The police will never engage in (legal) violent retribution against someone for anything. To do so is just as illegal for them as it is for us average citizens. On that note, private physical violent retribution is not strictly 'legal' either. The line drawing is in prosecution, which is never predictable, because cops and prosecutors are notoriously fickle.

Second, private non-violent retribution is most definitely not the job of law enforcement. The job of law enforcement is to enforce the peace, it is not to reimburse or protect people. If you want recompense from someone breaking one of your models, you have to either convince them to reimburse you or sue them. Both are not law enforcement issues, but private disputes.

By "the law" I, of course, was referring to the justice system as a whole.

Steelmage99 wrote:Me pointing out that I am ex-military and a student of martial arts is actually completely irrelevant as you probably wont believe me anyway. Just like I wont believe that a fraction of the people promoting violence in the situations in question will actually do it.
In my experience the people that talk a lot about it (over the interwebz) are even less likely to.

Gotta love the internet tough guys. I have no doubt that you probably are ex-military and a martial arts student, just like you probably don't doubt that I'm a lawyer.

Jon Garrett wrote:

i know how to use super glue. doesn't mean i should have to just because some jerk was hugged too much as a child and can't deal with losing except to destroy hundreds of dollars of another man's property. besides, broken arms dont take months to heal, and is a very effective learning experience.

Certainly. It's a brilliant lesson I'm trying to teach my kids.

"Someone does something you don't like? Respond with a massive ammount of violence and bodily harm! The police will never get involved if you assault others for breaking your things. Now go beat you sister, she broke that train the other day."

I'm not saying stand there gawping as someone slowly pulls each model apart, occasionally saying 'Please don't do that'. Pick 'em up and move 'em away, pin them to the floor. Whatever. Don't hurt them beyond that though because the law is not your friend beyond that.

And my wife, who had a broken arm, assures me they can take months to heal depending on how clean the break is, where it is, blood supply, etc.

dont worry. i wouldn't know how to break a bone if i wanted to. a punch in the nose and a demand to replace the broken stuff should suffice. works against most wannabe bullies anyway.

i know this is pretty rare occurance, but in my years of playing everything from football to magic: the Gathering, i've never seen some poor losers like SOME 40k players. it almost doesn't shock me that one of these people would break someone else's minis over a game. pretty pathetic.

Personally, I wouldn't throw a punch full stop. Nor push them. Too much of a chance for my taste that they'd fall and so some damage to themselves.

Yeah, it's exceptionally pathetic to smash a model because you've lost. I remember one thread where it was mentioned someone was walking around demolishing models for a competition because he wanted his friend to win.

Equally, though, I've got to admit, I feel it's pretty low to start swinging because a model, or even a number of them, has gotten smashed. They're just not worth being violent over.

Jon Garrett wrote:
"Someone does something you don't like? Respond with a massive ammount of violence and bodily harm! The police will never get involved if you assault others for breaking your things. Now go beat you sister, she broke that train the other day."

I neither condem nor condone the start of the thread, but your now moving the goal posts set in the thread. Your first sentence is a red herring. It is NOT "someone does something you dont like", The correct sentence is "someone is intentionally and willfully destroying your property".

Subsitute "destruction of expensive toy" with to put his foot through your car window(side not front nor back), or your house window. Given GW prices is roughly equivilant. Do you have a right to stop them from said destruction? I'm not talking beat the snot out of said person, but a good hard shove or punch to the gut(which wont do long term harm) may or may not be in order, depending on your juristiction.

As far as I see it, is someone accidentally breaks something it's not a big deal, of course it depends on the damage.

However if someone is deliberately breaking your model(s), not just one, more than one, you have every right to force them to stop if they do not respond to you stating the need to. Don't just jump someone, give them fair warning.

I neither condem nor condone the start of the thread, but your now moving the goal posts set in the thread. Your first sentence is a red herring. It is NOT "someone does something you dont like", The correct sentence is "someone is intentionally and willfully destroying your property".

Subsitute "destruction of expensive toy" with to put his foot through your car window, or your house window. Given GW prices is roughly equivilant. Do you have a right to stop them from said destruction? I'm not talking beat the snot out of said person, but a good hard shove or s punch to the gut(which wont do long term harm) may or may not be in order, depending on your juristiction.

I've never said you don't have the right to defend your property. Please, feel free to check the various other posts in the thread. Including the one you quoted from.

I'm not saying stand there gawping as someone slowly pulls each model apart, occasionally saying 'Please don't do that'. Pick 'em up and move 'em away, pin them to the floor. Whatever. Don't hurt them beyond that though because the law is not your friend beyond that.

You are correct, though. I should have been more accurate in that statement. It is about destroying property, but equally, there is a limit to what you can do to defend that property. The gentleman I was replying to was talking about breaking the bones of someone who broke his models which, honestly, upset me a little.

Jon Garrett wrote:I've never said you don't have the right to defend your property. Please, feel free to check the various other posts in the thread. Including the one you quoted from.

No, I'm quoting THAT particular one for a reason. YOU SAID, and shall we quote it again, "Someone does something you dont like" then you hurt them.....is partently false, and a red herring. I dont like it when the guy across cheats, or doesnt bath or bad mouths the girl behind the counter. But thats not the thread, nor what the thread is. You were expanding it to things not even remotely in the thread.